| IVOD_ID |
168794 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168794 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-23T10:18:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-23T10:38:10+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:35 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be54424752730e979b45926e07bf52eec0dd49d3cfaf5c3773194d21596a229c91d56b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
廖偉翔 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:18:35 - 10:38:10 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部就「脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與銜接機制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月22日及23日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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來 謝謝主席 請石部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
15.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
30.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
六人好部長早我想2024年凱凱案都震驚社會政府也隨即推動所謂社安網2.0試圖再補破網我們也看到預算從115年的106億到119年的819億.6億將近820億我們當然也可以看出部長對於改善社工處境以及提升整體的社會安全網友 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
45.936 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
64.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這個很大的決心但是我拜讀了一下你們的強化社會安全網的計畫2.0也就是115年到119年核定本的內容之後有幾個現實的問題想要請教第一個如今的社工人力流失呢我想已經不是新聞那全國的禁用率 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
65.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
83.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是從2021年的89.7%掉到82.8%那當然其中一個原因是預估需求越來越大但是新增的社工的速度趕不上需求的增加那當然也有造成幾個亂象請教一下部長因為我看了一下有媒體報導這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
85.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
96.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
如果縣市政府地方政府把自聘人力轉去社安網那到職的一天之後就離職也會算進用率的狀況請問一下衛福部有沒有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
99.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
126.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個可能要掌握一下所以沒有掌握跟委員報告就是我們對於社安網各縣市的社工跟專業人員的禁用率我們年度就是以12月的最後的那個禁用的一個人數來做計算12月最後的那天的人數嘛對不對好所以這就報導下一題就是說所以這個報導就指出如果社安網的員工想要離職這些主管會拜託他撐到12月以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
128.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
155.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
好 所以目前有沒有掌握要成過12月以後就離職潮的現象發生跟委員報告 我們的確也在這個聯繫匯報每半年會針對社工人員的流動率進行一些統計那我們最新的統計是在14年12月底的一個情況對嘛 對那你這個14年12月底那你現在15年之後你有沒有去追蹤 還沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
166.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
對 就是目前還在觀測 都沒有 目前這三個月第一劑都沒有關注還是有統計那你統計你有沒有發現他12月以後有離職潮 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
168.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
193.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
當然人數是進進出出有一些浮動你有沒有發現有離職潮這個狀況因為我剛剛講了兩個亂象嘛第一個亂象就是他可能一天到職因為他知道你哪一天要統計他就請那天自己移過去把這個人數衝高然後過了之後說拜託你超過12月以後你要離職再離職有沒有這個狀況有很多的因素比方說年終養智沒關係你告訴我們有沒有這個狀況就好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
211.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們查一下這個每個月的人數的變動的資料我們再提供給委員不過其實我們各類各類人員都有類似的情形就是在這個年終獎金發放之後那個本來要好沒有我要跟你講其中有個根本的原因其實上面 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
211.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
233.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
都有這種既有的亂象會問這個問題是因為啊你們有把這個禁用率納入考核所以你就有可能導致地方政府為了達成這個聘用率一再的降低聘用率的標準反正你先聘進來再說你的教育環節可能也不足那大家在湊數字所以如果沒有達成考核標準會發生什麼後果KPI齁對你的KPI會發生什麼後果禁用率未達85%會要扣除考核 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
258.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
應該是會扣分嘛對不對取消了取消了115年今年取消了取消今年取消新的一年今年開始取消喔對對對那我只是想問你那如果所以這個KPI已經沒有了沒有了沒有了確定沒有了喔對對對你不會因為這個KPI沒有達成然後未來 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
259.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
267.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個明年度去說那我要我不要讓你給你補助這麼多或者是讓你在這個預算上面不要有這麼多的補助會嗎你們會這樣嗎以前禁用率未達85%會會扣分嘛對不對那現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
274.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
300.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
對 會扣補助款嘛之前會扣補助款 對不對所以你們現在確定今年之後都不會有了今年沒有了 今年取消這一項好 因為我要跟你講的事情是其實這個相關KPI你們也應該回去檢討除了這個之外有沒有其他會導致這樣子惡性循環的因為他就是如果他達不到然後你又砍他補助然後結果他導致他越來越少資源投入那是不是導致一個負向的惡性循環是 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
301.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
325.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以另外部長你們在2.0的計畫裡面第三頁啊其實就有提到將會擴大服務族群那規劃將服務對象擴大到新社會家庭那服務率要從1.14%提升到50%好那你服務量會增加43倍啊那你的獨居老人每一年要成長10%那還有的這個數位性別暴力啦淨貧邊緣戶的這個財務社會工作啦那 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
343.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我想要請問這樣社工是不是需要更進一步的教育訓練那這樣子的業務量是不是會增加你們評估會增加多少的工作量我們社長網2.0是預估要增加9000名啦就是說到119年我是說你們擴大了這麼多的對象我想請問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
349.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
373.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
擴大這麼多業務我們當然希望可以照顧越多越好可是在你既有的這些社工的量能之下他的工作量會增加多少這個跟委員說明我們這裡有很多種不同的對象但是像新生兒服務這個大概不是社工為主那麼獨居老人可能有部分可是也不是全部多我跟你說因為你們我們還是會希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
388.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有不同的這個多元能力的部長我跟你說李建德次長他在2025年12月22號的時候也在這個委員會其他委員會有親口宣告說要擴大六類所以包含了新手父母獨居長者近平性影像原住民多元性別所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
389.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
404.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我要說的事情是你現在擴大了這麼多好你現在增加9000名可是你實際也沒這麼多人那我試跑了一下模型去預估和推估他說第一線人員的體感工作量可能會增加至少20%當然這個估算不一定完全準確但是具體來說就是基層人力目前已經確定還缺乏 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
409.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
438.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
而且還沒有補足的情況之下現在可能還有法律風險雖然我們都希望擴大這個服務範圍可是這樣會不會給第一線人員或是督導或是地方政府更大的壓力我們會試這個人力的到位情形來調整我們的目標啦當然因為這個是提報計畫的時候當然我們會用一個比較高的挑戰的具有挑戰性的目標不過我們會按照實際的情況也避免造成這個第一線人員的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
439.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
455.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以你們有沒有什麼打算的做法不是只有講一個目標出來那你要怎麼做到不要讓他工作量增加又可以增加趕快更多人我們大概每天還是會滾動去調整這個目標的設定不是 目標設定是一回事你既然設了這個目標你就要有一個可以達成的方法嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
456.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
485.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以你要怎麼達成這個目標當然不然你這個目標不就是虛設嗎第一個當然我們有些是可以靠這個數位技術協助的就是AI導入啦協助他分案啊等等這樣的那人力的這個留任然後徵聘訓練這個也是一個然後再所以簡單來講就是你要增加薪水可能會找到真心的方式然後要增加AI導入的方式對不對對好那但是呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
486.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
504.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我想喔這個你又在這個110頁裡面嚴格規定了資新的標準喔所以我想要講的事情是你的這個計畫書啊你工作量增加了20%雖然你說你可能會增加薪資AI導入可是事實上你有一個資新的標準在那裡那資新成長有限你真的覺得留得住人才嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
529.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們會盡量來爭取讓他的心智要合理你應該要去檢討一下你如果有那個標準在那然後你沒有把你把標準定在那裡然後你要增加這麼多的工作量我不覺得你留得下人才那你是不是會考慮譬如說增加新點或增加新點的折合率然後另外你剛所謂的AI導入或者是數位導入轉型你多久可以上線 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
530.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
553.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個已經開始啟動在做了那你們現在做的成效如何呢在招標還沒做因為這是115年開始的那我就問什麼時候上線嘛你在招標那等你招標完建制完到上線系統而且我們都知道數位導入並不是一件容易的事情還需要整個體系的習慣運作工作流程要調整那我想要請問這樣子要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
554.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
576.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個都已經在進行中嘛不是啦 部長你是在進行中嘛你是在招標而已啦你剛剛說你開始招標嘛招標是那個技術的協助但是相關的文件都已經在討論了相關的規格啊那所以我剛剛問的問題MG提案是什麼時候上線然後它可以融入到這個第一階段大概是年底會完成那個系統年底喔對 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
577.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
604.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我覺得因為從今年開始就已經人力不足了然後弄到年底然後你的薪資還沒有提升我擔心你這樣子的量能跟你這樣的量能跟這個給他的待遇你真的留得住人嗎我們努力加速來推動啦因為這個還是要有時間啦這個也不可能急救張是 那我另外就想要請問一下在關懷訪視員的部分啊目前這個自殺關懷訪視員平均每個人要負責74案啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
606.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
632.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是原本規劃的兩倍那你們要怎麼降低因為那個還是有按照這個風險分級的他也不是說每個的訪視頻率或關懷頻率都是相同你先去思案你們第二期定本來是定這個1比40沒有達到那2.0改1比30其實更嚴重了還沒開始就破功了你這樣子會不會差太多 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
633.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
656.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
然後我其實去查了一下國際比較當然每個國家可能實務上到底深入多少不一定可是我看到的是包含這個英國可能平均是15.4案日本可能是40案然後我們的74等於是美國的6倍英國的5倍日本目標的2倍所以我想要講的問題就是說那你要怎麼降低啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
658.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
672.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個我們當然一方面增加人力啦一方面呢那個改變那個工作的這個方式啦是啊所以我剛剛前面一直在跟你討論這個所謂的人力流用啊或是待遇增加啊這些相關的問題還有數位方式所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
673.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
689.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
可是部長你有沒有覺得我這樣問問到來還是有點你的回答還是有點空泛其實我知道其實台灣各行各業都很過勞啦這過去其實這個案子更多我們是逐步在下降那個我記得以前還超過 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
690.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
710.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
一兩百案一個人在負責現在我們是逐步在給他往下調我希望部長這個因為你現在沒有辦法完整的回答我希望你們可以回去務實的檢討然後給本席辦公室具體的做法好不好因為不能夠總是用這個帶過的方式當然你說有沒有這樣可能有這樣可是我們離目標還這麼遠然後你定的目標是這樣到底怎麼達到 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
711.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
737.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
然後另外也有媒體報導這個所謂的再通報率這個KPI是非常不合理所以原因在於你們根本沒有釐清再通報的根本原因所以僅就單就這個再通報率去做指標那就會變成可能會讓各單位變成害怕單責任也造成各協力單位的第一線人員可能想辦法是說那我要往外推這個責任然後最後可能還會推回到社工身上 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
738.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
762.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好所以目前你們的這個社安網2.0中的績效KPI也有明確的要求脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報的保護案件比率的目標值要從3.5%壓到119年要低於3%好那部長你有沒有想過在被通報的時候真的有可能是有結構因素或者是一些不可歸咎於社工的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
763.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
780.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
比如說經濟問題再次施暴我想要表達的是社工不是神有時候不是他們不想解決而是他可能沒有能力解決或是在那個狀況之下就連很多這個宗教的聖人要開導一個人也不是說馬上開導輔導他就可以過了對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
783.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你有沒有更溫和的機制用專案協助代替考核而不是用這種中央補助的資源啊來這個所謂用KPI來挾持地方政府最後大家可能為了獲得充足的經費然後已經很累了還要處理考核指標然後把分數衝高最後就變成在玩數字遊戲為了考核而考核這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
805.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
825.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
在通報這個統計我們都還是應該要掌握啦才知道服務的成效但是我們已經不把它當作是一個KPI啦已經把它拿掉就是說不用這個來做考核現在你確定已經都拿掉了嗎已經拿掉了你確定拿掉為什麼我在你們的這個2.0裡面的績效KPI裡面所以你文件裡面還寫著 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
832.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
860.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
退家的部分齁那我們再回對啊你還有啊部長你不能亂回答部長你不能亂回答我你要請他們如果你不曉得內容你要跟他們講啊保護個案如果是保護個案這個部分是拿掉那其他的呢這個是我剛剛說的是脆弱家庭服務三個月後案件被通報保護案件比例的這個目標值這個有拿掉嗎沒有那我們回頭再檢討了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
862.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
886.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我覺得你們KPI的時候就是說我們的這個在通報裡我剛剛有提到我們需要有這個數字的掌握才知道服務的成效但是要不要拿來作為KPI這個是另外討論這些客觀數據是讓你們拿來精進你們的這個成果的部分但是你如果把它錯誤拿來作為績效的KPI你會導致所謂的數字遊戲你結構不對產出的成果也是錯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
887.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
912.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
不好意思主席最後一題因為他這裡面可能的這個這個原因很多啦就像您提到的原因很多不是啦但是你要回去檢討你們的KPI其實我上一年2025年的時候我就有講過我在質詢的時候也有講過你2024年我說社安網在崩潰中2025年我就說你們的KPI有錯誤可能有錯誤你會導致目標整個走這個方向完全不對那你現在的績效 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
913.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
925.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
還是這樣設定的話你就會導致大家為了考核考核為了樹枝漂亮去美化你並沒有真正達到所謂的社安網的目標啊所以你這個一定要回去檢討然後這個我們一個月內提出檢討好談到你們的這個社安網計畫2.0的106頁你們這個兒少通報案件經調查派案後提供服務的比率 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
935.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
951.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你們到119年要達到95%那一樣代表你們強制要求95%的案件都必須進入後端的服務系統但是伴隨現在的數據可以看到在凱凱案後已經有明顯的防衛性通報的思維 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
953.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
968.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
那因為現在的法制也明確要求只要責任之息就必須通報所以當然有大量的案件也進入了調查系統那調查系統的成績也不用太難看就一定要讓一部分的案件再進入到服務系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
969.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
986.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以你的現況就是已經湧進了太多的通報量也造成國家系統的癱瘓那可能就會變成是大量的社工人力必須用在調查事件沒有辦法更細緻化在這個後端的服務也導致這個真正需要服務的或者國家資源的配置失衡 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
988.204 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
999.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
所以從數據來看我們可以看到這樣的矛盾近年的兒校通報案件數跟通報人數持續的增加但實際進入到這個保護服務的人數並沒有同步上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1000.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1018.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
而且福利的服務量更是呈現下降的趨勢以2025年為例在69109名的通報個案中最終接受到保護服務者僅9898人是6年來的新低同時也反映出這個福報通報的現象越來越嚴重 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1020.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1026.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那你們現在呢又要求調查服務比例要到95%那最後就會變成什麼就會變成是廣通報廣調查廣服務然後大家如果數據不好看就會被檢討最後還塞捲最後還會有這個有篩選過也會讓後端的這個需要服務的KPI一再的增加所以現況就是這樣子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1041.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1064.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
深入的報導 我有看到社福中心擔心案量太大那他可能會為了衝高開案率社工會在長官的收益下 可能啊會讓一些單純只是申請急難紓困的資源可能沒有其他明顯問題不需要後續處於的民眾列為追蹤個案所以你廣開了短期服務三個月後又快速結案 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1065.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1084.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
就變成一個在追求數字的遊戲你們未來會如何避免是不是應該要建立相關的案件風險的評估機制不是單純的要求服務比率拉高然後你所謂不管是分流分級你到底應該每一個階層你應該怎麼去設計不是一味的用數字去壓是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1086.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1105.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
跟委員說明現在就是利用這個調查中心先篩案因為幾個事件之後那麼這個防衛性通報確實有增加的情形所以才會透過中間這一層去篩案所以後面所謂的服務提供比例是篩完之後交付 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1106.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1124.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
下一段那麼的服務比例並不是所有進來的95%都要去服務所以你現在這個有很明確嗎因為我們在你訂的很明確假設你沒有訂的很明確然後也沒有說一定要20%的開案率也沒有這個指標我跟你講這個叫做有點像是潛規則我們擔心有這個潛規則因為你設計的KPI導致了整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1129.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1136.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
整個這個運作的流程有問題所以我要提醒部長如果整個體系如果你們設定的KPI不對你就會導致所謂的廣開案快捷案湊人數的數字遊戲這就會違背我們當初訂立這些KPI的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1145.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1168.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以你應該剛剛你有說一個月請你研擬一個一份完整的應對報告然後一個月內交於本席辦公室我們希望這個社團網的設計我們一個月內把這些KPI指標我們再檢討一下那麼不要去造成這個負荷的過重那個這個我們來討論好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝謝謝部長謝謝廖偉祥委員發言接下來請楊耀偉 |