| IVOD_ID |
168774 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168774 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-23T09:24:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-23T09:39:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a0a6b12795be5442ad738f9a00ecd9106e07bf52eec0dd495c559c9b7407d71ce901f84a635eded85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王育敏 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:24:20 - 09:39:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-23T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部就「脆弱家庭兒少支持服務及兒少保護個案處遇之跨體系協作與銜接機制檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【4月22日及23日二天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
5.643 |
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7.528 |
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好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長有請部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.79 |
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17.532 |
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部長長我們看到這幾年這個兒少堡的案件其實呈現非常暴增的情況如果看到111年他的通報量是83,101件到114年竟然暴增了六成增加了54,000人來到 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.929 |
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59.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
136592件暴增的這麼多但是實質進入到最後的我們的保護服務的人數他其實是在下降的到最終端的這個實質的政府保護的人數是在下降的這當中的落差請問部長為什麼有這麼嚴重的一個落差 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
62.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
79.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
跟委員說明這前面的這個是通報來源是整個啦但是後面的會再去分流啦有些是催加有些是所以我要先問的是前面暴增六成到底是為什麼你們沒有去分析原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
80.896 |
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90.303 |
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因為我們最近一直在宣導鼓勵發掘這些可能的問題像守門人一樣就盡量的通報宣導有成不要讓他漏接啦那這些案子都是真實發生的案件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
97.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
120.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那如果暴增六成這個是大家敏感度增加然後通報量上升那我就要問我們的服務的工作人員保護的人有沒有增加六成跟委員說明我們都會去把它做分析所以後端有些是保護個案沒錯但是有些是福利服務 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
121.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
142.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
像福利服務所以你整體的人員你前面報整六成你後面整體的不管是福利服務或者是後面的安置保護你所有的人員的成長有到六成嗎人員的你說這個服務人員當然是沒有吧整體是吧對整體的有增加到六成嗎我們這幾年是從一百 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
145.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
171.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
103到113大概增加了大概是五成啦從一萬三千名社工到一萬九千名社工啦然後去年也有在增加大概四千名左右好 這個就是我要告訴你的齁按量暴增但是我們的人員其實並沒有等同比例的增加另外一個更糟糕的情況是這個整個離職率啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
171.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
198.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
它還是維持在一個這張圖表你看一下你的禁用率你的社安網其實禁用率八成其實平均有的縣市根本不到八成然後離職率呢還是維持在13.9也就是說你的人力根本跟不上你現在案件增加的速度這個是為什麼第一線的社工他們現在壓力暴增壓力倍增 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
198.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
226.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那有些人他其實很願意在這個領域奉獻昨天這個社工他們的抗議裡面有一個資深的社工他是帶著錯氣的聲音在講他的心路歷程我不知道部長今天看到這個新聞嗎看了讓人家覺得很心酸他很熱愛這份工作他也願意工作但是他們現在普遍感到惶恐的是就是如果做不好的話他其實是被判刑的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
244.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他會被上銬的就是說他從一個社工的助人者他可能會變成是整個最後要背鍋的那一個人所以為什麼有萬名的社工連署昨天有1600名社工走到行政院發出怒吼 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
245.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
273.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
因為他覺得他就承擔了所有的社會安全網好或不好孩子的生命有沒有保障他要站上那個保證人的位置對他們來講何其沉重非常非常的沉重啊所以這樣的一個怒吼不是沒有原因案量這麼大然後要背負的責任這麼多不是他認真做就好他還要擔心他認真做的過程這個家庭不能有任何的散失跟風險啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
274.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
302.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
只要是他接觸過的會不會說這是你接觸過的你要負這個保證人的責任在這樣的情況底下他能安心工作嗎我覺得昨天這些社工他們上街他要的是一個安心的環境是一個無害的環境是一個不要被無止境被救責的這樣一個環境但是我們國家有提供給他嗎以他們昨天的憤怒跟怒吼他覺得國家沒有保護他 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
303.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
324.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那這個就是整個政府要去思考的問題啊所以在昨天他們談的部分你看到這些離職率事實上他們昨天的訴求我認為是政府應該要去正視的就是特別是像兒保的社工他們風險更大我想在座各位這個彩虹市長大家都知道兒保社工的這個異動 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
325.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
347.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
現在是很怕補不到人因為那個扛的壓力因為這些家庭它就是高風險的家庭你真的很難保你去仿視了這個家庭之後下一秒鐘接下來的一天孩子可能突然家長的憤怒或什麼或一時想不開把孩子帶去哪裡了 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
348.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
369.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那如果是現在司法體系對於社工的職業的不了解他動輒用這麼重的把他放到一個保證人的位置的話我覺得這一波你會讓很多就是有心想要從事社工的人他可能會卻步或者是灰心那這個對我們整體的社會安全網跟保護體系其實是一個傷害 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
370.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
386.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我不知道你們有沒有警覺到這件事情這件事情沒有好好的處理你沒有辦法給社工一個安心的話我覺得對他們來講就是他雖然很想投入助人工作但是助人工作如果付出的代價如此之沉重我覺得有些人真的是會打退場鍋所以我覺得我們應該要來解決這樣的一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
391.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
409.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
昨天這個他們在訴求裡面我們來看接下來這一張就是國家重建一個合理的制度是他們一個很重要的訴求就是怎麼樣去盤點還有界定保證人地位不會讓社工去踩雷 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
429.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這件事情是他們昨天一個非常明確的訴求因為像兒保社工我覺得他會遇到翠家的社工也很容易遇到啊因為他們的家庭結構本身就非常的不穩定嘛那你今天這個如果是司法單位他們可以是這樣子就說欸你是保證人所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
430.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
444.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
就是你要負最終責任嘛那這件事情我們應該是要好好的討論不要讓社工就是這樣子惶惶不安嘛那部長你打算怎麼做昨天這個訴求其實非常的清楚你打算怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
445.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
471.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這四點我們都很認同 應該要來處理所以第一個呢 法律責任的釐清我們明天已經在部裡面邀集相關的 明天嗎對 明天下午那有邀司法單位嗎有有有 一起大家都幾個重要的那個背景不同的背景 法律司法還有社工專家一起來那麼就這個法律見解的部分來進行討論你們邀集的成員大概有多少人 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
475.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們是不是詳細的再提供給您參考我希望這個規模 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
494.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
範圍其實是要多的另外就是在比例上面是要恰當的而且這一些相關的就是職業工會社工的職業工會就是他們是第一線的還有社工專協團體的話是今天下午我們會先討論他們聽聽他們的意見他們的訴求然後明天才是這個法律專門針對法律的討論那那個法務部有派代表嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
512.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
有邀請法務部嗎有邀請因為法務部很關鍵啦檢察官就是其實邀請法務部嗎有邀請嗎法務部請 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
519.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
540.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
要出席法務部我主張就是要出席因為司法體系這邊還有司法院法務部跟司法院都應該要出席我們來確認一下那個出席對今天有出席的法務部就是請你們要派員出席因為這件事情我覺得每一個社工他現在心裡的惶恐就是下一個會不會是我 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
541.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
554.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
下一個會不會是我所以才會那麼多人站出來那我覺得這件事情真的是政府的責任我覺得就是要讓社工非常的安心一個助人工作者還要每天提心吊膽 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
556.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
570.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
真的我覺得這個我們對不起這一些基層的社工安心的職業環境這個是我們一定要去做我的看法跟您是完全一樣的KPI我們把它廢掉了已經廢掉了嗎已經廢掉不再用再通報率什麼時候廢掉社安網2.0的計畫我們就把這個KPI拿掉有拿掉了這個也是被詬病的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
579.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
597.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為這些家庭的問題就是它是會反覆出現的然後你們之前是用再通報率然後來作為是你做得好不好的一個指標結果造成實務上有些人就把案子hold在手上他不敢再開新案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
598.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
618.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這樣子我的KPI可能會好看一點這個都是本末倒置的做法第三個 合理的按量這個是我覺得你們應該要認真去思考的一個好的工作環境 合理的按量你才可以讓這些保護性的社工久任要不然風險又高 按量又大 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
619.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
647.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
然後又有司法的風險這個雙重多重的壓力底下這個是留不住人的最後強化網絡的合作這一次我們也看到就是司法體系對於社工的職業環境有沒有那麼的理解這是這一次很多社工他們提出來的他覺得是不夠理解所以你明天這個會議是一個好的開始但是我覺得你要建立一個是讓司法人員對於整個社工的職業環境跟體系跟他的執掌有一個清晰的脈絡跟了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
649.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
675.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
如果沒有這樣的了解他可能會誤判或他以為的正義可能跟實際上的情況他可能是兩件事情他不夠理解做出的判斷所以這個強化網絡合作我希望你們也可以做因為我也很清楚過去也是在醫療上也有類似的情形所以辦了很多的依法論壇讓這個醫界跟法界這邊能夠有對話的機會那我想這個社工的工作性質其實跟醫事人員很類似 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
678.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
704.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
也是助人的所以未來我們也來強化這個對話好那我希望這四點你們都要做我們要還給社工一個安心的職業環境最後一個我要問的是有關於兒少全法的修法昨天是這個今天教育部有代表來對不對我們請那個副署長一起上來昨天是那個全教總他們發了一個新聞稿 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
705.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
725.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
也一樣感到焦慮喔那他們的焦慮是對於兒少全法72條的修正他們覺得有些地方是模糊的會造成跟他的管教權在學校管教權產生一些的衝突那這個部分我不知道之前在修法的時候那個教育部有沒有參與72條修法的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
727.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
735.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
有沒有邀請教育部出席你們沒有表達你們沒有去蒐集基層教師的意見然後去反映相關的意見跟看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
737.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
761.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
在比較早一個階段的時候其實我們有被邀請但是後來的這一個版本的後半階段我們好像比較沒有參與不過因為現在是公告他有一個月的期間教育部這邊會收集地方政府還有我們相關教育團體這樣團體的意見我們會跟就是收集意見然後我們也會提供給衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
762.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
778.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
好这个因为其实教育部你们在你们有这个关于教师的管教权你在教师法的32条教育基本法第8条第15条你还有个辅导管教办法事实上你本身就制定一套针对学生的管教办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
778.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
801.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那你們現在應該要去釐清啊就是說對於學校老師在教學現場他是要優先去適用你這一個管教辦法還是說兒少全法他是更上位他這邊會去凌駕到你的這一個學校的相關辦法他們現在到底應該適用哪一個因為你在你的學校的輔導管教辦法相對是比較明確而且比較細的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
803.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
826.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那現在為什麼這個全教總他們覺得這個新修訂的兒校全法讓他們會無所適從就是文字有一些模糊的空間那這個要怎麼處理我們會收集意見因為4月21號公告我們昨天大概署內相關的主事還有我們也會發文給地方政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
827.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
853.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
昨天剛好有一個跟地方政府的會議我們也都把這個訊息給地方政府請他們就是要特別關注這些的議題那我們會會長收集之後我們再跟衛福部一起討論好我們兒少權法去給這個兒少就是更好的權益保障這個是支持的但是大家要注意在修法的過程當中譬如說像教師的部分跟他的管教權如果有所漢格 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
854.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
859.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
或者是有衝突的地方那我覺得這是主管機關的責任一樣你要給教室一個安心的這個教育現場管教的環境啊而不是讓他覺得我如果萬一我們在兒童全盤有一些太模糊的他會擔心也是動輒得救的問題因為這當當中有提到就是比較細微的像偏心忽視他就很擔心一個老師 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
877.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
900.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
班上几十个学生偏心如果也要算的话感受的问题那个感受太模糊了所以我希望这个部分你们也要尊重就是在教育现场这些老师的意见然后做出一个合理的修法的调整好不好好我们会跟卫福部一起讨论好谢谢好谢谢王玉明委员发言接下来请陈金辉委员发言 |