| IVOD_ID |
168493 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168493 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-35-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-13T12:22:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-13T12:40:03+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:15 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5655ee4938da65e1725c77fcefc4a4d081f6660fd2e34289c80866d4b6cb3fd6bb2b46c06798901d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:22:48 - 12:40:03 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、國防部副部長徐斯儉、內政部、海洋委員會報告「針對近期中國籍小型船隻非法侵入我國領海之偵搜漏洞檢討、科技監偵設備建置進度與精進作為」，併請大陸委員會、交通部列席，並備質詢。） |
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謝主席 海巡署有請親海巡署委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
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| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
武安辛苦了這個監察院去年9月16號有一個內部調查報告指出就針對今天跟今天的主題相關的也就是說海巡署的岸際監控能力他做了一個這個內部的調查報告說由雷達紅外線熱顯像然後再到智慧的岸際監控系統然後最後是人力組成的守望哨大概是四個層面來進行組成但這段時間發生很多的橡皮艇啊就是走這種灰色地帶也好或怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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來做滲透登陸的事件而且其實都在本來海巡署的監偵範圍之內所以它當然是一個有待優化的這樣子的一個防衛的機制那監察院的報告顯示說原因包含第一雷達對於小型目標相比艇的掌控能力當然就有所不足第二是光學目獲系統的自動化跟共同作戰圖像的整合性有待加強 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
64.878 |
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第三是守望哨跟雷達組成的尖針有的時候會有空窗的一個狀況所以海巡署應該要檢討跟調整那麼海巡署在報告裡面有講就是說配合國土安全的任性特別預算也就是我們之前通過的要規劃籌建最先進的雷達設備導入AN4能判讀等等那針對光學幕後系統也講也在積極規劃籌建熱顯像系統環島智慧暗記監控系統等等那麼就有這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
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這樣子的一些說法那今天既然有排熱質詢相關專案報告我們當然就希望可以聽到比較具體的說法因為你當然每一次這個大家都講說我在積極籌備我在做規劃我在做整理但問題是具體的這個目標跟內容是什麼我想這個充分的說明是有必要的所以我今天要問海軍署 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
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這第一個這個執行準備計畫你本來就應該要詳細說明首先我問有關暗記雷達系統你講說未來導入AI判讀那熱顯像系統跟智慧型暗記監控系統好像還是要人工方式判讀這個科技跟人力之間如何協調來降低漏判或誤判的風險請回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
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各位報告非常感謝委員對於我們海巡組的特別預算有支持所以我們很順利的編列了284億的特別預算這中間裡面就是有剛剛委員講的那幾項第一個有關新制雷達的部分我們現在新制雷達是比舊的雷達還聰明我們現在這三個系統裡面我們全部會導入AI |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.602 |
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178.238 |
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去做然後我們有一個另外一個建案就是把整個海域的狀況一個COP整個海域狀況把它連結串聯起來也就是剛剛委員提到的部分就是後續的兩項沒有辦法整合的部分我們會利用這個建案裡面就全部把它整合起來就是全部導入A來做判別然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
178.999 |
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彼此之間的連結跟這個資訊的互通那所以剛剛委員擔心的這個問題我們會在這一次裡面全部把它一次解決你這個跟你報告講就是一樣的概念嘛就是我們要導入AI我們要進行整備那我想今天要講詳細一點比如說你現在整備到什麼程度了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
196.384 |
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我們現在的岸基雷達我們現在開始在做標案116年雷達跟紅花仙熱影像還有環島智慧型監控跟港軍監控這四項所有的監控系統會在116年全部完成 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
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所以116年 年初 年終 年底 全面建置完成那個因為預算結算是在到年底但是有一部分會在115年就會做結束因為它是階段性的因為還考慮到那個招標廠商的量能還有我們的基地的建置所以它不可能一次在一個年度把它做完我們分兩個年度把它全部做完沒關係 會有提供詳細書面報告因為其實既然我們都知道你會往這個方向做而且也應該往這個方向做 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
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立法院也通過預算 支持你們往這個方向去做那現在大家在監督進度啊我的預算既然通過了 我執行總要有效果吧到115年年底 今年年底 大家可以做完哪些事116年年初年終年底 分別做完哪些事這個還是要詳細說明啦這免得監察院也提報告 立法院排列專案報告但都沒有進展 這樣是很可惜的事 好不好這我相信既然大家都有做 那就多交代讓大家比較安心第二個是圖資的部分啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
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這個圖資的部分我們還有一位主委是很會做圖啊還PO臉書對不對但大家知道重點嘛是真正你這些真正掌握情勢的圖資你內部在防止滲透的各式各樣的圖資你能不能做有效的整合然後做大家看的其實是結果你有沒有辦法有效防堵圖資的部分核整備進度是不是說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.405 |
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跟委員報告我們現在所有的海面監控的圖資包括國防部包括有軍給的圖資他本來就是那個我們勤職整個早上我們每天早上都會開都在做的嘛就都在做的都在做部分那另外那個剛剛委員有特別提到就是那個管株委員的這個圖資部分我這邊要特別跟說明很多次了不用再說明了啦我知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.03 |
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333.021 |
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就是說那是他自己在做的我知道但關鍵是你剛剛你講說你本來就有國防部的友軍提供的你自己整理的圖資都會做整合對不對但是今天之所以會被監察院提出來說要檢討就是因為這些圖資顯然掛一漏萬嘛這些特殊的滲透式的小型載具等等還有問題嘛所以我要問你的問題是你在最新的整備或者是升級的過程之中怎麼樣防渡這樣的狀況再次出現回答這個問題就好了謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.454 |
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351.691 |
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我您講的是說小目標沒有辦法 投資等等 或者說你怎麼整合去防堵可能的滲透風險嘛特別跟委員報告我們現在所有的包括海面 包括空中的情證這些東西都會進到平台裡面來那也就是我們的雷情會分享給國防部跟友軍單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
353.212 |
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375.925 |
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國安部的部分 海情部份 包括海面目標部份也會分享到海巡署來所以它的圖示是共用的 而且在平台上面可以完全呈現所以在剛剛講到有圖示錄像是沒有問題的現在是監察院提醒你的部分是這樣就是說你都有圖嘛 你有很多嘛但你怎麼去分類 然後怎麼精準掌握嘛去避免這樣的狀況出現嘛 這個才是現在的問題吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
376.905 |
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396.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
對 跟委員報案 因為監察院調查那是兩年前的事我們現在已經慢慢的在改善 未來的部分 投資的部分會整合在一起不會有剛剛講的部分就是 這一個是歸這個 那個是歸那個未來會整合在一起 會整個呈現在一個COP整個平台裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
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就是說你在每個階段之後你做了哪一些的優化讓那個分裂可以清楚然後讓大家的掌握可以更明白一樣你就按照剛剛前面我們講嘛就是你雷達系統等等的升級有個時間表的改善方式一樣會做書面說明就可以了可以嗎好不好我們就要提醒這個事第三個我要補充一下就是說現在大家都講嘛這無人機可能是未來戰場上很重要的堅真嘛它是戰場上的眼睛一樣那同樣海巡署我在做岸際巡防等等的時候當然也需要無人機那無人機這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
426.838 |
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如同剛剛您回答的就是說在特別預算裡面也編200多億148億是這個提升你的這個巡查量能無人機的部分40億基本上都通過只有少量凍結所以你該做的還是可以做的預算也都給了對不對但是我看到裡面有寫說你現在只用懸疑型的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
446.241 |
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460.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
舊型載具嘛那舊型載具的缺點是這樣第一個續航力50分鐘但是關鍵是抗風係數可能比較低一點這大家都知道無人機怕風嘛吹跑了就不穩了那海上作業那抗風係數是更重要所以是不夠的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
461.058 |
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477.653 |
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所以你講說我要做新型的無人機懸疑事辦計畫提升續航力跟這個抗風可是後來引擎技術出了問題啊驗收不合格造成了沒有辦法處理的狀況所以解約了好啦那現在怎麼辦呢我的無人機第二階段我的升級我現在最新的招標狀況我目標新買的無人機的內容是什麼騎乘是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
482.237 |
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499.433 |
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這個也是要說明一下我們把它公布起來吧特別跟委員報告我們107年就建立就開始使用無人機我想應該是公共機關裡面最早使用無人機來做徵收跟救生救難但是那一代的無人機因為那個時空環境影響其實它的無人機的效能是很差的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
500.033 |
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517.036 |
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這不是 但是現在因為無人機突圍猛進所以我們剛剛委員講的部分講的是我們二代機那二代機因為廠商沒有達到我們的要求所以他就解約但是我們那個案子已經解約完了以後我們重新起案那案子也順利的招標我們現在是有第二代機已經招標結束所以是可以同樣廠商做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
517.797 |
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537.455 |
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不一樣 不一樣 不一樣 完全不一樣那第二代的無人機的滯空 抗風 跟徵收效能比第一代好太多了好太多了所以我們已經 我們在今年的六月份會交機那目前是在做接機跟教育訓練接機 現在是四月 所以還有一個多月全部交完嘛 還是分批交機 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
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全部交完還是分批全部交全部都交完OK有要補充說明的嗎可以補充說明沒關係是好是全部交機是我們希望這次引擎這些都沒有問題沒有問題那個規格非常好而且我們有做POC整個實際實測過了從嘉義飛到澎湖再回來OK也都測試過了測試過了我們希望這個東西如期如質的來進行整備跟處理是主要是這樣我想立法院對於這些東西基本上所謂是支持的是好海軍署請回謝謝好謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
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這 國安局長有請請國安局長好 謝謝主席喔 劉委員好局長 辛苦了這個這個我 我請教一下啦這當然您比較專業 但沒有關係啦這監察院的調查報告裡面曾經有指出喔 這國防部啊這為了避免滲透嘛 我們今天討論的是這個主題嘛避免這個不提高這個對於滲透的警覺性所以國防部有設計 比如說天威測考 比如說不確 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
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625.331 |
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這自己派特戰部隊去做試驗嘛看看我們的平常的官兵在營舍裡面等等有沒有是否具備充足的這個警覺性那有做了很多次的這個做為一個考評的標準這當然都是很好的事情啊提升警覺性這是強化戰備的一部分那國安局長你從國安的角度就我們的政府機關等等這樣的一個角度你有沒有相關的這樣子一些機制或是測驗啊因為最近好多共諜一樣很危險對不對我們內部集合把控的這樣子的一些機制你的努力是什麼你要不要說明一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
625.891 |
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648.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為這部分 因為國安局也是中共滲透的重要目標我們本身在不管是保防或反情報滲透都有一個機制在那包括有定期的進行移測那移測大概全中華民國政府裡面做的最積極最平面的應該是本局做測謊的概念另外只要有任何的出國回來也都還要再進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
649.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
670.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
相關的一個歸尋跟移測來避免到在海外有被接觸的一個狀況那另外我們的督察單位也都會有定期的來針對我們的同仁做必要的一個訪談跟清詢那來提醒同仁注意一下回憶一下最近有沒有被接觸所以我們是有一個機制在運作你剛剛提的都是有關於局裡面內部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
672.191 |
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689.152 |
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集合跟建設其實每一局都要有這樣的一個觀念就因應這樣的可能的狀況那你作為國安的這個主管機關那其他局處的針對內部的這樣子的一個反對滲透或者是防制滲透的這樣的各種措施啊政府各機關對不對因為他是無所不在嘛那你們的做法是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
689.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
707.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我們大概分幾個部分一個部分是把我們自己本身局內的這樣的一個反滲透的機制把它完善好那另外就是跟我們的國安情報機關總共11個機關我們也把我們的經驗跟這11個機關來做分享那另外就是推展到政府的部分那因為調查局是負責我們政府整體的安查跟特查 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
707.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
725.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那調查局也是我們的國安情報機關裡面的協同情報機關所以我們也會把這部分有些過去的一些案例的一些狀況讓調查局在進行政府的這些相關的反情報的滲透當中也能夠依照過去的一個經驗來做一個比較完善機制的建立 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
725.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
740.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好 那本席提醒一下嘛 因為各 其實這應該是各個部會啦 甚至是其他都要有一些警覺性要有所提高那國安局這個地方作為 你可能是示範 或者是你內部有一些有做合理的分享 然後分不同的層次 警告的敏感度我們也有針對一些比較高風險的局處 可能要做部會啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
746.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
761.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
目標對象也是有一個高風險的名單我本期在這邊做一下提醒希望這個部分看看彼此之間借財一些情報防治的這些經驗能夠讓滲透的狀況可以降到最低謝謝 國安局長請回主席我可以再要一分鐘嗎我請陸委會副主委請陸委會副主委謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
775.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
804.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
委員好 副主委吳安這很多委員今天都趁機講一下這個政協會的一些狀況那我直接切入重點因為今天總統府說嘛這個實相措施以及等等相關的這個後續如果有誠意就要跟政府來進行協商那當然嘛這個世界各國也很多人都講樂於對話對話也不要只跟在野黨對話如果跟執政黨跟政府可以有效對話都對於緩解兩岸關係是有一定正面的一個幫助副主委你同意這樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
806.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
826.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
同意啊所有的兩岸之間的措施都是應該跟台灣民選政府對話的你講得真好現在總統府現在講說有誠意就要來協商你覺得這只是一個純粹的政治喊話呢還是有打算付諸實際行動我們其實已經跟對岸講了很多次了譬如說團客的觀光 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
827.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
847.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個部分我們希望能夠來協商小兩會的能夠來磋商但是他們到現在為止一直不肯回覆嘛所以就卡在這裡所以我今天問了嘛就是說今天既然大家都講對話這件事好像蠻重要的我們先不設大家彼此的政治立場或者是怎麼也好但是我現在要問的只有你現在陸委會介紹的只是要把它正式付諸行動了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
849.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
862.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
還是就只是今天講一講新聞對付過去就算了因為每一件事情他們單方面宣布之後我們就要看他有沒有要找我們討論然後或者是說他們希望他們要怎麼樣接下來進行那 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
864.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
890.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
所以譬如說他們昨天講說這個上海福建的自由行那這個部分我們就等他們提出來他們要有一個正式的東西不是說發個新聞稿發個新聞稿我們沒辦法處理事情這本席不反對啦就是說各個政黨執政也好債也好如果有辦法用對話的方式來降低兩岸衝突的風險我想對於國家安全都有一定幫助它不是唯一的方法但它是有效的方法之一 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
890.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
917.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
那我現在比較擔心的是因為這一連串的過程國內當然就草翻天了嘛對不對那我現在想的是這政府屢次喊話你們也希望跟中國大陸有一個穩定的對話管道但是好像一直都沒有辦法往前推進所以你的立場跟你的方法之間總要有總要可以對稱嘛就是我有你執政黨有執政黨要堅持的地方但是你在堅持這樣立場的時候你用什麼樣的方法可以既堅持你的立場又完成對話的目標陸委會針對這樣有沒有準備 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
920.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
943.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
如果對方還是堅持什麼九二共識反獨的立場才能夠對話協商那這個基本上可能性就不大但是我們希望說兩岸之間除了這個政治前提之外大家畢竟都還有很多往來的需求嘛那如果他們硬是要抓住這個前提否則其他什麼都不談的話那就沒辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
944.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
954.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
所以你剛剛講的其實還是立場嘛就是說你政府有政府要守住這我完全尊重因為大家政治立場本來就可以不一樣民主社會是這樣但在立場跟方法出現衝突的時候你的選擇是什麼我們政府的選擇是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
956.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
983.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
政府的選擇是中華民國的生存啊中華民國如果不能生存下去那其他利益都不用談了所以某些政治前提如果你危及到中華民國的生存那其他的說你說能夠賣多少的鳳梨或是柑橘所以我就講眼下你現在面對這些狀況的時候你的選擇是什麼現在就是所謂有思想措施啊也沒有談到別的東西對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
984.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1008.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
這十項措施從我們的角度來看其實就是新瓶裝舊酒啦新瓶裝舊酒其實都不是什麼大禮包啦現在大家講的好像很了不起其實在我們看來是一碗甜不辣想要換到一盅佛跳牆大概就是這樣所以在這個過程中會選擇堅持立場方法就算了是吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1009.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1034.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們還是希望對方能夠如果你想要做什麼那你就可以直接跟我們政府來對話現在是溫情喊話看有沒有辦法成就這個事沒關係溫情喊話也是方法之一沒關係本席不做任何預設立場我們中華民國現在需要的是什麼需要很多方法大家都有不同立場我們已經很清楚了大家都知道但是我們需要有解決事情的方法這是我給陸委會你們的本職工作是促進交流這是本席的層次的提醒時間已經到了我們就不多談了謝謝 |