| IVOD_ID |
168264 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168264 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-08T11:18:56+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-08T11:55:47+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:36:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0b9fd49c8a5b6e55301ae777e4c72867ece185cfc45202cc0798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:18:56 - 11:55:47 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、衛生福利部、農業部就「穩定供給與減塑並進：因應國際原物料波動之原物料穩定供應及我國減塑治理進程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
討論事項
一、審查「廢棄物清理法條文修正草案」9案：
（一）委員馬文君等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員顏寬恒等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員顏寬恒等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員林淑芬等22人擬具「廢棄物清理法第七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員張宏陸等17人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員邱議瑩等21人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員許智傑等29人擬具「廢棄物清理法第四十六條條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員劉建國等19人擬具「廢棄物清理法部分條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員陳冠廷等20人擬具「廢棄物清理法第五十條條文修正草案」案。
二、審查「資源回收再利用法修正草案」2案：
（一）委員許智傑等28人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
（二）委員盧縣一等16人擬具「資源回收再利用法修正草案」案。
【專題報告及法律案綜合詢答，法律案僅詢答】
【4月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
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接下来请林淑芬委员发言好 现在这个主席是不是请我们彭部长有请彭部长李委员好部长好这个全台湾这个事业 |
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一般也不是非事業廢棄物就是一般家庭垃圾的焚化廠當中我先講好了是事業廢棄物的焚化廠當中然後不是是非事業廢棄物是一般垃圾焚化廠每年大概處理650萬噸廢棄物是吧然後產出90萬的底渣和20萬的非灰 |
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那這些都要納入這個環管署的SWIMS系統去管理吧那輝輝的處理也很明確的規範嘛然後依照一般廢棄物回收處清除處理辦法第27條 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
72.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
77.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
聽好這個是家庭產出的垃圾家庭一般垃圾不是事業廢棄物家庭的垃圾那環管署管理然後他的清除處理辦法27條他講必須逐批尤其在衍生物我講輝輝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
91.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
111.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
他的衍生物必須每一批 燒出來每一批都要採穩定化溶融法或穩定化法或經其他中央主管機關許可的處理辦法然後處理以後 你必須安定化 無害化 然後穩定化 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
131.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
之後呢每一批喔還要進行代澳新檢測是另外檢測代澳新檢測以外還要進行TCLP的溶出檢測對吧是沒錯好那我要討論這個非灰的管制的制度問題之前我先從這個新竹焚化爐的問題來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
138.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
165.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
2019年4月新竹縣長楊文科在施政報告當中他規劃要興建焚化爐招標的具體內容還沒有公開台融科技他就在4月他公開說他要興建一個焚化爐台融在5月就馬上去買了六筆土地這六筆土地剛好在2002年他們那個地方已經通過了環平的焚化爐預定地了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
166.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
195.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以顯然大家都在講說這個好像很厲害那三個月後呢縣政府就正式公告他們要蓋的焚化爐是要用BOO案的方式去蓋所以廠商要自己準備土地然後導致他用BOO以後就排除了本來有意要投標的日本 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
歐美的業者紛紛都退出變成台融成為唯一符合資格的投標者獨家得標那外界議論的是說副縣長的配偶就等於副縣長他們家啦才發現說他們擁有台融的這個股票500張 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
217.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
239.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
現在價值也不菲 那有沒有利益迴避 大家都嚴重質疑然後大家也在講說新竹縣政府的BOO的合約條件被批評遠遠比同級的案件條件定的非常的差非常的不利於縣政府 非常的有利於業者 包括 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
240.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
合約規定每天500噸的處理的量能你一半250噸要給事業廢棄物250噸要給民生垃圾但是光是他們新竹縣自己每天的民生垃圾就280噸所以光是要處理他們新竹縣自己的垃圾都還不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
264.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
289.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
大家都知道處理生活垃圾收的錢少處理事業廢棄物收的錢才多但是現在他要收你的生活垃圾他一噸這個焚化爐要收2100元如果你超量加價要到2520元那回饋金遠低於桃園跟高雄的每噸400元回饋金每噸100元 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
294.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
297.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
焚化發電收益全部都歸這個焚化廠商所有所以在這個東西這樣公佈以後台榮科技在2025年合併營收因為這個案子大幅成長進六層碳系碳鋼但我今天不是要說這焚化廠背後的利益結構和官商勾結啦我不是要講這個我是要講這座焚化廠所暴露的 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
323.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
環境的環保的制度的漏洞比這一個個案爭議就是有沒有圖利還更嚴重的攸關到全民的制度面的缺失其實就是非非管制的雙軌漏洞部長非非管制的雙軌漏洞你有知道嗎報告委員這個案子是非常特殊的我沒有講這個啦我在講非非管制的雙軌的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
353.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
361.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
你們在飛灰管理上的漏洞大家都知道這個飛灰問題很嚴重保證你不知道啦 看總控你不知道啦有啦有啦 有知道啦他們兩個知道 你不知道啦我對 保安委員 這個案子我清楚這個案子我不是在講這個案子我是從這裡要來講管制的漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
375.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
392.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
一座焚化廠被定義為事業廢棄物焚化廠它的非灰的管制就會從環管署的軌道轉入循環署的軌道一般的家戶垃圾是哪個單位管的環管署那如果說我這個是事業廢棄物是誰 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
399.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
415.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
循環署所以他只要是事業廢棄物的焚化爐他就到循環署去了適用的就不是一般廢棄物的嚴格的標準喔而是事業廢棄物的較寬鬆的規範聽好清楚喔事業廢棄物的規範比家庭垃圾的規範更寬鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
425.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
430.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這樣你聽我 我就開宗明義破題就是講這個大家有我接受嗎 修事業廢棄物的安全環境風險標準比修家庭廢棄物的還更寬鬆這樣感覺 好來他現在只要說我是事業廢棄物分化爐非非他依照你們的辦法半年只需要進行一次TCLP檢驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
451.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
476.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
不用像加燒家庭垃圾出來的廢灰要安定化穩定化要融融處理直接燒失業廢棄物的廢灰就以物理的方式就直接再利用了燒家庭廢棄物的嚴格逐批檢查有沒有帶澳新然後做TCLP檢測失業廢棄物不用做帶澳新檢查只有做TCLP檢測然後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
479.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
494.992 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
家庭廢棄物要安定化、無害化、穩定化、熔融化給它燒結不能夠有溶出的風險事業廢棄物更毒害的都不用不用直接拿去再利用物理上的處理我再問你一個TCLP你的事業廢棄物的非灰質做TCLP檢測TCLP可以檢出代澳新嗎有辦法做代澳新檢出的檢驗嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
510.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
526.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
沒有辦法 TCLP是什麼實驗溶出的實驗 TCLP是它在模擬自然環境裡面長期空氣裡面酸與腐蝕然後看這個物質會不會溶出然後造成環境危害其實它是一個環境長期的 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
529.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
557.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
環境危害的 所以要做長期環境危害的風險評估而代澳鋅是一種毒性的代澳鋅物質的檢查代澳鋅是溶於脂肪 不溶於水啊你TCRP是促酸啦它根本不會溶出沒有辦法檢驗代澳鋅 這是基本的所以等於說你的試驗廢棄物的廢灰全部都沒有在檢查代澳鋅的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
558.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
575.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
OK好我再講新竹縣這個例子回到這裡來我回到新竹這個例子來新竹縣政府依促三法以BOO的方式去設置的高效能垃圾熱處理設施就台榮啦反正就台榮這個案子一個月500噸年處理量15.5萬噸其中8萬噸是事業費75 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
582.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
585.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一年預計7.5萬噸是生活垃圾為什麼他要這樣子設計 你知道嗎我剛才說那幾批這樣聽到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
593.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
610.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
還有為什麼要這樣子設計成一年收事業廢棄物更勝於家庭一般垃圾呢因為事業廢棄物的處理量過半他們那一個廠就被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐營運資料不用進還管署的長期追蹤的SWIM系統 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
621.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
642.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
灰飛的管制也變得更寬鬆了據瞭解他2025年初然後就開始營運以來試營運以來現在呢一兩次只有一兩次的檢驗數據就將灰飛以一般性灰飛的名義送到台南全新公司去 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
644.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
664.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
預辦少量的水泥做成低密度控制性低強度的混凝土就是CLSM啦還有拿去填地填管溝一年只驗兩次抽驗不是逐批喔一般垃圾的會不會還要逐批他沒有一年抽驗兩次因為法律規定的因為你們規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
666.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
693.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
他只要叫事業廢棄物就可以這樣子了送到台南全新去這一種強減的灰飛送到全新去大概2025年度送了4,034噸以每一噸廢棄物產出約3%的灰飛虧孤那個焚化量他一年大概2025年的確燒了13萬多噸幾乎他全年的灰飛全數都送到全新去全新 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
696.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
721.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這一種東西你覺得做成再利用產品 品質會好嗎?不會 這個我簡單的說 第一個是這個台南市環保局已經沒關係你要跟我講全新的問題是另外一個問題但我跟你講是制度面 這不是台農只有一家台農這樣做大家都這樣子做而且這一種品質 事實上市場沒有人要買單啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
722.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
735.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
而且這種CLSM 我跟你講 做出來喔 都是虎氣的啦 虎氣的啦沒錯 市場沒人要買 我問你 市場沒人要買的抽象甘就繼續做 沒可能沒可能 這些東西早期到位早期到位 你確定他們有做成低密度的CLSM啊 低強度的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
749.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
769.136 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
沒有啦 不要騙啦 這是事業廢棄物的 我告訴你監察院有一個糾正報告啦監察院有一個糾正報告 他不是講事業廢棄物 他去看全國的所有的公有焚化爐的灰飛公有焚化爐的灰飛 我講過他一定要檢測帶藥芯嘛 然後他們有講 監察院這裡有講 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
775.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
791.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
公有焚化爐 家庭垃圾而已焚化灰飛因性質複雜 綠的含量高直接再利用 亦導致製成腐蝕受損所以灰飛長期以來均已固化掩埋處理目前再利用率仍約10% |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
795.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
814.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
一般家庭廢棄物燒出來的灰灰拿去再利用10%比這個風險更大然後檢測法律規定的更寬鬆的失業廢棄物的灰灰你說他拿去再利用 全部會再利用公有的再利用10% 他會是幾%不要騙人啦所以我要跟你說 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
820.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
826.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
非常令人不安的問題是我現在要講的你們的問題更嚴重環管署發現這個問題以後他想要到台融裡面去解采樣被新竹縣環保局拒絕阿會一位質詢合一來質詢主席 當然要質詢讓他們來質詢我們在質詢有人要討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
848.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
866.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
好 我現在講環管署發現要去採樣要檢查被新竹縣環保局拒絕然後呢環管署就跟你們循環署反映循環署無動於衷最後是北區督察大隊介入採樣才揭露這個問題這不禁讓人想要問說新竹縣 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
871.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
897.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
是唯一的這個案例嗎全台灣還有多少座試驗廢棄物焚化爐他們的灰灰都跑去哪裡家庭家戶垃圾公有焚化爐只有10%再利用率他們的更不可能比他們更好其他跑去哪裡被同樣當作一般性灰灰處理其他流向到底去哪裡你們報的出來 我就要問你一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
901.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
907.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
那當然有可能掩埋全台灣非灰掩埋廠的容量剩下多少你也不知道我們請署長回答好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
917.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
945.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
他管的是公有分化爐我現在是最終處理叫做掩埋啊我們在說的就是這些東西我們拿去賣掉啦但是也有可能拿去賣掉問題是掩埋廠還有多少量可以賣掉不要騙啦到底還有多少量可以分買賣所以會記錄他的那個我再講輝飛的掩埋餘育量剩多少現在台灣剩下不多因為只剩下民間廠商不多是多少啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
946.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
953.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不知道 好 回去 保證你也不知道 他也不知道啦我告訴你啦 沒人在掩埋都黑白的啦還有我跟你講喔 他們會回填管溝嘛 對不對可以回填管溝嗎假設說他已經完成了全新公司啦 全新公司做成低強度的混凝土可不可以回填管溝 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
976.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
985.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他前面的話講的是說它是一般一般的話才能夠做成CLSM才能夠對啦我問你CLSM可不可以回転管溝你們用假的檢驗叫PCLP驗不出代澳薪然後它的風險就變成從有風險變成一般的管制一般的事業費器物的管制然後就可以做成CLSM |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
999.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1003.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
CLSM可以去回填管溝保定你知道回填管溝有什麼風險嗎它是強潛對不對會腐蝕對不對會回填什麼管溝我問你中油如果它的油管天然氣管它的輸送回填那個管溝有沒有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1017.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1039.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
自來水公司本來是塑膠管 現在全面改成鑄鐵管如果搶檢放進去有沒有風險還有一般民間的化學油槽 化學管的輸送然後都是鑄鐵管 如果沒有包覆一個特殊的包材特殊的包材包上去很貴 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1040.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1053.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
沒有的話回田管溝請問自來水水管的鑄鐵管據我所知台北市有包覆包材台灣省的沒有啦沒錢嘛就鑄鐵管有沒有風險漏水的風險有沒有可能中油的油管天然氣管有沒有包覆它的鑄鐵管有沒有包覆沒有包覆有沒有風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1063.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1083.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
他們有沒有使用低密度的CLSM 低強度的有啊 法律可以允許啊油管 化學管可不可以回填可不可以那個 可以啊有沒有風險保證你可以說沒有啦 不會馬上就就腐蝕啦 會要經過很多年才會腐蝕啦是吧保證是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1087.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1105.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我說這都是事實 正在發生 已經發生喔因為我看過我們全面汰換致癌水管然後你把有毒的 強檢的通通回填管溝CLSM拿去回填管溝全台灣最小的CLSM不用再買水買土 也不用再買水泥 人家送你的回填管溝有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1115.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1133.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
會不會贏?不會贏的啊有沒有公共危害?有啊好好 鮑偉我回應一下第一個是新竹這個案例是非常特殊幾個月前我已經有看到相關的資料也進行了該有的、必要的這個檢查程式我知道啦 這個個案我知道但我現在跟你講是從這個個案我去告訴你全台灣只要叫做四葉廢棄物焚化爐的都一樣啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1143.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1155.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
都一樣不要只講分新竹在你制度面你的揮揮管制的雙軌的制度的漏洞而且你把高風險的管制的更鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1156.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1170.816 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
各位報告那我們現在CFHU呢他是他的規定是要經過檢測那我還有什麼檢測你用檢測兩個字你也未免太糊弄我了我又不是不知道是你們有什麼檢測那各位直接報告就是現在你們檢測的頻率我剛剛講一般 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1173.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1195.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
三垃圾焚化廠的灰灰每一批燒出來他要做代澳新檢測還做TCLP你們的事業廢棄物焚化爐的灰灰半年TCLP抽一次處理後產品可以測這種東西測不出代澳新啦你沒有特殊的代澳新你們都知道代澳新是不能用TCLP檢測出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1197.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1223.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
所以呢這個是檢測頻率你們也不足人家每批風險相對低的是每批你們風險高的是半年才抽人家再利用的限制是每一批出來都要穩定化安定化無害化融融化才可以再利用你們是不用你們的失業費幾乎是可以物理處理的方式直接做成CLSM就回田田地也可以 田管溝也可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1224.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1250.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
而且你們的人家一般垃圾焚化爐公有焚化爐燒出來飛灰要經過中央主管機關許可才能再利用啊你們是直接有許可證直接就繼續去利用然後呢人家一般公有垃圾一般垃圾燒出來飛灰要納管到SWIMS追蹤監測系統而你們環管署是申報一下有報就好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1252.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1271.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
因為法規上漏洞這麼嚴重包委員那我這個會後再提供詳細我不要提供詳細資料那目前就是在失業廢棄文化裡面它基本上灰灰跟渣是分開的而且它都會進行檢測那灰灰的部分絕大部分都是去固化掩埋或者是像台灣鋼連去做那個熱處理你現在不要再說這個了什麼台灣鋼連你有法律強制規定你的失業廢棄物一定要到台灣鋼連裡面燒解融融嗎有規定嗎沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1281.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1286.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
法律有規定嗎你講的是如果發現檢出有害物質的話才要這樣子沒有的話是沒有餒人家一般垃圾燒出來就一定要逐批驗然後都一定要燒融安定化無害化你們沒有 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1303.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1323.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
所以到底我現在要問你這個問題你聽得到嗎我現在不是在說新竹而已我再跟你講你灰灰管制上你從它這個焚化爐的廠別的定義你決定了它的管制強度不一樣變成雙軌而且是高風險的管制的鬆 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1324.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1346.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
相對低風險的管制的嚴 這樣會不會危險的在台灣現行制度下 焚化灰灰的管制強度是取決於焚化爐的定義是一般垃圾焚化爐 還是失業廢棄物焚化爐而不是取決於灰灰本身的化學特性 風險危害沒有耶 寶定 你也說兩句啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1350.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1356.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
我回去會再來瞭解然後這個如何在法規上面做一個精進或調整 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1357.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1380.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
這個刻不容緩啊 是不是說不論焚化廠它是哪一種焚化廠灰飛只要是灰飛它的很多的風險和有害的特性會是很像的特別是事業廢棄物的風險更高它還有高濃度的重金屬 鉛 鎘 鎘 鎘 鎘帶澳新 湖南或其他有毒的物質 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1381.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1405.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
這些垃圾的特性 這有毒毒害的特性不會因為它的焚化爐叫做什麼名字就改變所以現行制度卻允許說焚化廠的名字不一樣管理的就不一樣因為產源定性不同就適用截然不同的管制標準這是不應該的而且我一直在講TCLP去判定制度讓灰飛有機會逃脫有害的認定 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].start |
1407.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].end |
1434.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[58].text |
你們就是用TCLP在半年抽驗一次啊因為你們有害事業廢棄物認定標準獎焚化的灰灰他沒有直接列入附表的製成有害事業廢棄物喔沒有喔代耗心是最大的風險可是你們沒有檢測代耗心以外你用TCLP的容出去判定是不是有害而且判定有沒有代耗心這就是作假 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].start |
1434.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].end |
1451.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[59].text |
用TCLP去判定有沒有戴耗心這是不可能的絕對無法容出的所以你們的數據用這個來包庇他變成不是有害的這個就是作假跟包庇所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].start |
1453.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].end |
1471.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[60].text |
只要某次數據檢測未超過TCLP的溶出標準會非全台灣的試驗廢棄物用一個檢查不出有毒物質的PCLP的檢測方法就歸類為一般試驗廢棄物這就是問題你知道這就是問題蛤 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].start |
1478.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].end |
1490.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[61].text |
我已經講很多年了我知道那我是第一次聽你講那我這個會回去來了解那必要的時候就來檢討但是公有公有焚化爐有改啊可是他們你們遇到事業廢棄物的焚化爐這些民間財團自己經營的焚化爐就不敢改 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].start |
1496.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].end |
1521.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[62].text |
那我要再講說新竹的案例曝露的不是只有灰飛的問題而且還有中央管理系體系的缺陷一座一天處理250噸生活垃圾的大型設施資料卻不在環管署的SWIM系統因為它是事業廢棄物焚化爐嘛等於是中央對全台灣一般廢棄物處理量能的掌握出現缺口 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].start |
1522.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].end |
1546.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[63].text |
而且同時在這裡環管署跟循環署之間全責劃分產生灰色地帶環管署在新竹這個個案上發現問題卻被擋在門外然後他們告知循環署 循環署沒有無動於衷延遲行動然後地方政府還可以依場別的定性拒絕中央進場查核 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].start |
1547.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].end |
1551.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[64].text |
這一個問題制度面的問題管理制度面的問題全責釐清的問題絕對不會只有這一個場任何一座同時處理生活垃圾跟事業廢棄物但是被定義為事業廢棄物分化廠的設施都出現同樣的監督缺口所以在這裡 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].start |
1568.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].end |
1595.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[65].text |
此外還有一些部分焚化爐像桃園的新榮焚化廠桃園它本來是以BOO的模式營運垃圾焚化廠合約屆期以後它變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠它的管制標準也降階 降階保安局這問題很嚴重這是你們內部這光是管理的體系都出問題制度面都出問題這邊怎麼管 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].start |
1599.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].end |
1618.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[66].text |
這個問題新竹的部分我們已經我說從新竹你看到你還管署要進去他不能進去不給他進去找你們還管署還管署說我不管現在要怎麼辦不會他們沒有他們已經有在管我講的就是事實啊當然有在管啊如果慢了幾拍啊慢了很多拍啦地方政府不讓你們進去這個問題怎麼解決 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].start |
1622.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].end |
1646.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[67].text |
這個是整個大制度他這個案子本身就有一定的這個案子新竹這個案子本身就有他的這個問題存在所以我們目前制度面有沒有問題有問題要不要改這個目前第一個是他的有沒有違法的問題這個有單位正在偵辦當中我們暴力在這邊說這個就不要講這個個案我都講弊案我也不講啦我在講制度 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].start |
1647.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].end |
1666.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[68].text |
就是你有責任的制度制度的部分我會再來檢討改進好 我現在再告訴你國際上對焚化灰灰的基準判斷相當一致反正灰灰它含有很多的重金屬 氮澳鋅等持久性的有機污染物國際都把它優先視為是危險或特別管理的廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].start |
1667.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].end |
1682.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[69].text |
而絕對不是像台灣一樣把它列為是一般廢棄物日本的學界在整理廢棄物處理及清掃法的修法歷程的時候明確指出一般廢棄物焚化揮飛自1991年起就納入1991年 30幾年前就納入了特別管理廢棄物的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].start |
1689.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].end |
1696.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[70].text |
因為它的風險特別高而不會說它是燒一般垃圾的灰灰和燒世界廢棄物的灰灰然後跟台灣一樣人的病風險高的寬鬆 絕對不可能歐盟在廢棄物的目錄中將含危險物質的焚化灰灰編為代碼190103加星字號標示為危險廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].start |
1713.28 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].end |
1732.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[71].text |
而且要求要依廢棄物框架指令所列的危害特性就HP1到HP15判定是不是屬於危險廢棄物凸顯了它的高風險本質而日本在處理的技術上他特別管理這個特別管理廢棄物的會飛都要融融 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].start |
1733.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].end |
1751.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[72].text |
要燒解 要讓它無害化 水泥固化 化學穩定化使重金屬和代號芯固定在穩定的向中通過最終的處分場然後收納的標準 才可以掩埋或有限度的利用 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].start |
1752.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].end |
1773.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[73].text |
然後在歐盟呢 文化的非非管理不僅是說是否危險廢棄物的分類它含危險物質的非非被編定為190103新制號是否危險廢棄物我剛剛講了 還需要符合這個廢棄物框架指令附入3所界定的多重危害特性 毒性 腐蝕性 生態毒性等 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].start |
1774.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].end |
1792.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[74].text |
那歐盟在埋田廠的指令進一步規範危險廢棄物掩埋場對廢棄的收納標準還必須考慮重金屬溶出溶解性鹽類有機碳等指標而不是單一的TCLP的數據就判定依據所以歐盟每一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].start |
1794.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].end |
1821.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[75].text |
完整的管理鏈從危險分類經過預處理穩定化到最終也買場收納標準都有很明確的技術門檻跟監測方法絕對不可能像台灣用少次的TCLP檢驗就把大量的灰灰物質視為一般廢棄物然後去做CLSM回點管溝再利用然後呢還有亂丟的 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].start |
1823.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].end |
1847.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[76].text |
所以現行的有害失業廢棄物認定標準高度的然後用TCLP單一溶出實驗這種是環境風險實驗不是有毒有害物質檢查實驗然後你們這樣子去包庇掩護有毒的戴奧馨所以在這種狀況裡面當然大家都逃過有害廢棄物的分類的管制 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].start |
1848.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].end |
1871.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[77].text |
所以台灣是這樣子 那從國際NGO的角度來看焚化燴灰的風險都被認為是長期低估的國際持久性的有機污染物消除網絡IPEN在一個after incineration toxic ash problem的報告裡面它系統性的分析 多國焚化燴灰樣本 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].start |
1873.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].end |
1882.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[78].text |
指出灰飛碗碗成宅的焚化體系當中多數的代澳新的負荷而我們都知道代澳新會怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].start |
1884.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].end |
1906.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[79].text |
有什麼人體風險大阿新的人體風險是什麼很毒的四肢之毒會致癌致癌它的毒性在現行排放和風險評估框架下常被低估所以IPEN他們主張各國在實踐巴薩爾公約和持有性有機污染物管理時應該針對會會採取更嚴格的限職和危險廢棄物的認定標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].start |
1911.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].end |
1935.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[80].text |
避免匯匯藉由再利用的名義進入循環的體系而台灣呢台灣呢我剛剛講喔我再講一個數據喔這個監察院的數據因為一般垃圾公有焚化爐有監測我就講了他們每一批都要監測帶耗芯事實上呢他們在公有焚化廠匯匯穩定化的帶耗芯及重金屬減重 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].start |
1937.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].end |
1959.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[81].text |
檢測結果 監察院報告 112到113年期間檢測的最大值戴奧辛毒性當量濃度 每每很多場像樹林八里 像後里烏日 像台中文山 像新店 像北投 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].start |
1960.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].end |
1987.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[82].text |
其實它的濃度都非常接近臨界值管理的臨界值0.9 0.8 0.7 0.96都接近臨界值一般生活垃圾它的灰飛就是它的代號性都接近臨界值你看那些事業廢棄物多嚴重會更嚴重所以現在有幾座被定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的焚化設施寶丁你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].start |
1991.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].end |
1998.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[83].text |
全台灣有幾座 焚化設施是定義為事業廢棄物焚化爐的大型小型一共有幾座你不知道 這裡的書店也不知道 藥物單位也不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].start |
2007.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].end |
2027.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[84].text |
委員這個部分我們回去再做一個完整的一個通盤的檢討因為法律如果需要修的話我們絕對責務旁貸很多 要修的很多各事業廢棄物文化有產生的會不會用什麼代碼去申報然後各廠這些事業廢棄物的各廠的會不會TCLP的檢測還有戴耀新的歷次檢測數據頻率還有次數還有數據是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].start |
2032.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].end |
2048.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[85].text |
不知道顯然不知道嘛提供資料來所以你們中央對事業廢棄物焚化廠灰飛的流向你們不在乎你們也沒有找缺乏基本的掌握所以你根本不知道有沒有被不當的處理有沒有亂丟 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].start |
2050.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].end |
2065.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[86].text |
通通都不知道公有的只有百分之十在利用其他跑去哪裡民間的通通都跑去哪裡不知道然後呢我剛剛講的新榮桃園新榮焚化廠本來用BOO或BOT營運的這個焚化廠合約借起後變成民有民營的廢棄物處理廠他的匯費管制就從他本來燒一般垃圾降階為事業廢棄物焚化廠 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].start |
2080.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].end |
2082.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[87].text |
他的管制就鬆綁了管理就降階了啊這種東西你要怎麼補這個漏洞 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].start |
2091.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].end |
2114.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[88].text |
這個也是問題耶我本來是本來是BOT在燒一般垃圾的現在時間到了我變成民營的我要燒失業費器物了他的揮飛的管理就降階了以前是BOT公委託公部門委託你經營的時候你的揮飛的管制是每批都要驗的啊做無害化安定化穩定化融融現在都沒有了現在降階了都不知道了那你修訂的法規這麼多 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].start |
2123.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].end |
2146.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[89].text |
這個問題這麼多然後呢你這個整個修法大概要多久的時間然後整體我剛剛講的問題很多委員我先回去了解一下整個的狀況然後我們再排定一個計畫再跟委員來討教謝謝你要多久啦我們不想要拖啦更不要講說事實上都亂丟啦灰飛都亂丟啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].start |
2149.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].end |
2163.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[90].text |
風險最大的 做成CLSM的 未來的石油管自然水管 天然氣管 化學管大家自求多福啦 什麼時候會不會腐蝕腐蝕要很久 20年 30年啦等到哪一天氣爆也不足為期了 30年後漏水 漏水就漏水 鑄鐵管漏水 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].start |
2176.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].end |
2185.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[91].text |
所以你是不是要跨部門 跨單位去跟他們討論其實他們的鑄鐵管都要包覆防鏽 防屎 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].start |
2187.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].end |
2211.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[92].text |
知事體大 不要一天大碗講綠能啦不要一天大碗在講暖化你的最正本清源環境部最該管的就是這些垃圾 失業廢棄物啦跟人民健康風險 跟環境土地有沒有汙染最攸關的就是失業廢棄物的管理政策啦從以前就輕放到現在好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].start |
2216.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].end |
2216.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[93].text |
好 謝謝 |