| IVOD_ID |
168212 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168212 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-08 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-19-7 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
7 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
19 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
經濟委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-08T09:31:05+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-08T09:40:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/70d8fc05dcd8abb0db7978df47f35d01a7afadf2dd1952ec413b5cd1255e9444f0c0b32b082070385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪毓祥 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:31:05 - 09:40:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-08T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長率台灣電力股份有限公司董事長及台灣中油股份有限公司董事長、行政院經貿談判辦公室首長、財政部首長、行政院主計總處首長就「台美關稅協定（ART）中關於『擴大採購及購買』（原油、天然氣、發電設備等）項目之評估、規劃及涉及之問題與工作，並就台灣中油股份有限公司之增資案」進行報告，並備質詢。） |
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曾董事長文生 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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洪委員毓祥 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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曾董事長文生 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.209 |
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14.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
我們接下來請洪昭偉質詢謝謝主席我們有請經濟部部長跟經貿談判代表昭偉早安部長早 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
54.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我想剛剛談了很多但是我想從另外一個就把它抽絲剝繭我覺得這個ART跟MOU裡頭藏著就是一個納共美國的內幕也就是說第一個我到現在我們立法院也沒有收到任何ART MOU的正式文本所以經貿行政院經貿臺灣代表也沒有送給我們任何正式officially的 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
55.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
66.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我總結就是美國在這一個ARTIK NO MORE EURO是打出全壘打我們台灣就犧牲打犧牲得很徹底為什麼這麼說我把這一個時間總整理一下為了讓各位看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
76.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
100.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
在過去之前我們的產業大佬童子賢提出核二核三研議分燃模式等等核能是乾淨能源郭志輝也講了但總統府他說我並沒有授意童子賢談這樣的事情2024年的9月4號AIT就提出三個核心要務其中韌性明確的指導能源合作是一個關鍵議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
102.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
125.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
當AIT談完之後我們的立場就開始有點鬆動我們的卓榮泰院長就說了立法院質詢時核能三原則核安核廢跟社會共識這三個議題國發會也補了一刀說AI產業會讓我們的電力需求30%所以不排斥作為核能源的選項到了2025年的3月10號 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
128.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
146.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
AIT再發表一個談話美國準備好供應核能技術跟LNG可以作為台灣可靠的能源這能源包括了核能好了2025年3月11號行政院就講不排除在核能有安全共識底下開始 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
147.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
169.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
中油3月20號2025年3月20號就簽署了阿拉斯加液化天然氣的投資意向書投資意向書沒有說你一定要投資我知道你等一下方董事長會這樣回我明白在2025年的話一直下去了這邊就開始巴拉巴泰度開始做一些的調整整個包含行政院中油 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
171.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
182.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
一直到了2026年2月13號我們簽的ART MOU其中擴大採購的天然氣跟原油部分是444億電力設施是252億美元對不對金貿代表沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
190.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
215.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在2026年3月20號AIT就準備好各種能源技術面向滿足台灣的需要說我美國準備好了可以供應你台灣的需要3月21號2026年3月21號就在AIT的隔天總統府賴總統就是宣布可能我們可以評估核二核三的重啟講了一個很好的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
240.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們要因應未來的AI的算力需求以上這些都是新聞大事記就很奇怪美國AIT講的話之後我們的配合的發言跟這個言論你就會讓大家覺得說奇怪了我們一切好像不是你們所講的我的虧損我的中東戰爭這個在中東戰爭發生之前就在鋪陳 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
245.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
260.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
當然我知道你們也不敢回答我也沒有讓你回答我只是把這個羅列出來讓全國的民眾去看得到這整個世界我就覺得奇怪我們回到中油這邊我們請中油的方董事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
264.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
283.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就是剛剛講的這些的採購我其中有一塊阿拉斯加的這個採購他的一個預算如果按照中有過去持股這個所謂的卡達NFE大概5%我如果抓你們6.5%的話大概你們可能需要28.61到45.5億 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
312.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
也就是說民間對你阿拉斯加的評估總投資金額440億到700億那如果我們用這個第一種方案就是你們台美日韓四國去軍攤大概平均就是110億所以如果你把它乘以30點多我們匯率就算30大概就3000多億所以當時你提出來的增資3500億跟這有沒有關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
318.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
344.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
三千五百億增資跟阿拉斯加這個案沒有關係一點關係都沒有沒有關係好那你說沒有關係我覺得還是有關係啊你現在說我沒有啊我只核准你一千六百多億啊我如果把它分四期第一期的話大概就八百七十五億啊那我四期乘下來還是三千兩百多億如果說你這個都不是阿拉斯加油田的增資那你阿拉斯加油田的那些的拆採如果將來要開採那你的錢哪裡來 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
348.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
357.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
首先對於阿拉斯加投資案目前中國公司還沒有收到美方提供的一些詳細資料明白但是你要準備好資金啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
382.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以現在來講沒辦法去做確認要不要投資我是幫你算啦如果你現在的1687億的增資經濟部核准的話大概阿拉斯加第一期大概是858億你的累計quotient按照你報告是792加起來大概是1650億也蠻接近的那你日後再做增資嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
383.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
409.941 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
是不是應該是這樣子不是方案一就是方案二我想不出你還有什麼其他東西應該就是說第一個投資的總額還會確定第二個投資的比例也會確定第三個它整個開發的自有資金跟貸款的比例也都不確定好沒關係這是我合理的懷疑我知道你也不敢承認也不敢說特別說不考慮這樣子的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
411.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
433.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為我們增資的目的就如同剛剛我們部長講增資的目的絕對不是打虧增資的目的是為了要什麼改善然後創造更多的盈餘收入但是我真的想不出你的改善為什麼要花那麼多錢我想不出來因為我也開過公司我也做過產業所以我幫你想的方案是這樣你不承認也沒關係再來我們請台電再給我一點時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
438.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
461.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這裡頭電力設備的採購是252億美金大概7560億那我也幫台電算了一本帳假設我把核二核三的重啟的費用抓一下對不對包含你西路的檢查設備的汰換然後一座核三大概600億假設核二也差不多好了我們就算他是1200億到1300億 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
463.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
491.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後我也幫你把天然發電器的這些機組採購算進來大概包含你的協和興達大應該是大塔那邊對不對關於那邊大概我抓一下2024億加起來大概也才差不多3600多億所以我們250億的美金電力設備採購如果我這幾個加起來你也會飽滿核電的重啟跟燃料棒包含我們燃氣機組我們假設都這樣沒採購好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
493.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
520.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那這樣子還剩4300多億我就想問台電當時在ART簽這一個250億美金電力採購你有被人說要採購什麼項目嗎我跟委員報告那個上面寫了好多項目不是只有台電250億不是只有你你看那個上面內容寫了很多還有什麼設備等等的一大堆東西不是那台電的項目會是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
520.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
536.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那個台電的項目是這樣我們提供的資訊就是接下來因為我們要蒸汽減煤嘛所以我會增加天然氣的基礎採購我預計要做的天然氣基礎的採購那這大概是占多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
536.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
552.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
包含大齡的機組通宵的機組等等這些都要用依據採購法來辦公開採購那已經採購的像剛才我要講的大齡跟通宵那通宵機組就不是美國得標啊通宵機組是日本我們現在沒有得標我現在問你說採買項目跟這個你到時候再列一個報告給我因為我想要問的是經貿談判代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
559.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就當時這252億啊 到底要買什麼你不要又給我變成是1.25兆的國防軍購啊我也不曉得要買什麼東西啊這是我擔心的啊 我不反對你們買啊但買的要有價值嘛 對不對那這個錢 我就算出來就是4300億台幣不知道多少一度好 那我最後 再不太用時間了後面就是從這邊開始 好不好 謝謝這樣可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
586.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
586.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
好 謝謝 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:16.360000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:16.580000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:17.441000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:18.382000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
有請經濟部部長及經貿談判代表。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:18.382000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:19.382000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
請經濟部部長及經貿談判代表。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
龔部長明鑫 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:19.103000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:19.343000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
召委早安。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.5 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:19.543000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:19.723000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
部長早。 |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:32.799000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:38.743000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
由於剛剛談了很多，所以我想抽絲剝繭來看。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:38.743000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:46.408000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
我覺得ART與MOU裡頭藏著的，其實就是納貢美國的內幕！ |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.808 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-04-08T09:31:48.409000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-04-08T09:31:59.577000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
第一，立法院到現在並沒有收到任何ART、MOU的正式文本，代表行政院經貿談判代表沒有給我們任何正式、officially的文本。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.831 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-04-08T09:32:00.339000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-04-08T09:32:09.128000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
我的總結是：美國在ART跟MOU上打出全壘打，而臺灣則打了犧牲打，還犧牲得很徹底。 |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
0.784 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-04-08T09:32:10.249000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-04-08T09:32:10.409000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
為什麼這麼說？ |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-04-08T09:32:10.409000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-04-08T09:32:11.270000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
我把時間軸整個整理出來請各位看一下。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.647 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-04-08T09:32:22.113000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-04-08T09:32:35.604000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
過去產業大老童子賢提出核二、核三延役、芬蘭模式等等；郭智輝也講過核能是乾淨能源，但總統府說並未授意童子賢談這樣的事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-04-08T09:32:38.246000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-04-08T09:32:45.492000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
AIT在2024年9月4日提出三個核心要務，並於「韌性」一項下明確指出能源合作是關鍵議題。 |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-04-08T09:32:47.507000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-04-08T09:33:01.534000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
當AIT談完之後，我們的立場就開始有點鬆動，卓榮泰院長在立法院質詢時提到核能三原則「核安」、「核廢」跟「社會共識」三個議題。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
0.942 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-04-08T09:33:01.534000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-04-08T09:33:10.239000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
國發會也補一刀說，AI產業會讓我們的電力需求增加30%，所以不排斥以核能源作為選項。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
0.865 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-04-08T09:33:10.679000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-04-08T09:33:23.760000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
2025年3月10日，AIT再度發表談話，美國準備好供應核能技術與LNG，可以作為臺灣可靠的能源，而所謂的能源包括核能。 |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.854 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-04-08T09:33:26.043000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-04-08T09:33:31.549000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
2025年3月11日，行政院提到不排除在核能有安全共識底下開始。 |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0.87 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-04-08T09:33:32.236000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-04-08T09:33:44.441000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
2025年3月20日，中油簽署阿拉斯加液化天然氣的投資意向書，投資意向書不代表一定要投資，我知道等一下方董事長可能會這樣回復我，我明白。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.821 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-04-08T09:33:46.422000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-04-08T09:33:54.705000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
所以從2025年開始，態度開始調整，包含行政院、中油。 |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
0.789 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-04-08T09:33:56.552000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:06.443000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
到2026年2月13日，我們簽了ART、MOU，其中，擴大採購的天然氣跟原油部分達444億，電力設施是252億美元，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:06.643000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:07.864000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
經貿代表，沒錯吧？是。 |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:16.112000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:23.435000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
2026年3月20日，AIT說已準備好各種能源技術面向滿足臺灣的需要。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
0.885 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:24.196000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:27.237000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
也就是美國準備好了，可以供應臺灣的需要。 |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:29.258000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:39.542000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
2026年3月21日，在AIT談話後的隔天，賴總統宣布可能可以評估核二、核三的重啟。 |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0.871 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:39.542000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:43.984000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
他話講得很好，說我們要因應未來的AI算力需求。 |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
0.81 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:44.464000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:46.764000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
以上這些都是新聞大事紀。 |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.909 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:47.725000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-04-08T09:34:48.125000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
很奇怪！ |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-04-08T09:34:49.605000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-04-08T09:35:05.809000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
美國AIT講了話之後，我們的配合發言與言論會讓大家覺得奇怪，這一切好像不是你們所講的什麼虧損、中東戰爭，因為這一切早在中東戰爭發生之前就已經在鋪陳！ |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.826 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-04-08T09:35:10.231000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-04-08T09:35:19.581000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
我知道你們也不敢回答，我也沒有要你們回答，我只是把這些羅列出來，讓全國民眾看看這整個事件是不是很奇怪？ |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.787 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-04-08T09:35:21.283000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-04-08T09:35:25.888000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
我們回到中油，請中油方董事長。 |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-04-08T09:35:30.062000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-04-08T09:35:48.654000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
剛剛講到採購，其中有一項是阿拉斯加的採購預算，按照中油過去對卡達NFE大概5%的持股來看，我抓6.5%，你們大概需要28.61億到45.5億。 |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.768 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-04-08T09:35:52.130000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-04-08T09:35:58.412000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
也就是對於投資阿拉斯加一案的評估投資金額是440億到700億。 |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-04-08T09:35:58.792000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:16.199000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
如果用第一種方案，即臺、美、日、韓四國均攤，大概平均是110億；乘以匯率三十點多，以30來算，大概三千多億。 |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:16.759000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:17.919000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
當時你們提出的增資金額是3,500億，跟這有沒有關係？ |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.762 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
方董事長振仁 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:24.185000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:26.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
3,500億增資跟阿拉斯加這個案子沒有關係。 |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
0.882 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:26.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:27.526000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
一點關係都沒有？ |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
方董事長振仁 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:27.727000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:28.527000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
沒有關係。 |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:29.267000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:31.568000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
雖然你說沒有關係，但我覺得還是有關係。 |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
0.824 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:32.048000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:42.792000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
你說沒有，因為只核准一千六百多億，不過若分四期來看，第一期大概是875億，四期乘下來還是三千兩百多億！ |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0.814 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:42.792000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:49.314000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
如果你說這不是阿拉斯加油田的增資，一旦將來阿拉斯加油田要開採，請問錢從哪裡來？ |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
方董事長振仁 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-04-08T09:36:53.192000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-04-08T09:36:59.841000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
首先，對於阿拉斯加投資案，目前中油公司還沒收到美方所提供的詳細資料。明白。對…… |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
0.912 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-04-08T09:37:01.003000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-04-08T09:37:02.324000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
但是你們要準備好資金啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0.909 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
方董事長振仁 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-04-08T09:37:03.345000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-04-08T09:37:07.889000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
所以現在沒辦法確認要不要投資，這是第一點說明。 |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-04-08T09:37:07.889000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-04-08T09:37:28.832000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
我幫你算過了，如果現在所增資的1,687億獲得經濟部核准的話，那麼投資阿拉斯加第一期大概是858億，依照報告中所說的累計虧損是792億，加起來大概是1,650億，也蠻接近的，這樣你日後可以再做增資，是不是？ |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
0.667 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-04-08T09:37:29.452000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-04-08T09:37:33.634000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
應該是這樣子，不是方案一，就是方案二，我想不出還有什麼其他東西。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
方董事長振仁 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-04-08T09:37:35.294000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-04-08T09:37:47.458000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
應該說第一個，投資總額還未確定；第二個，投資的比例也未確定；第三個，整個開發的自有資金跟貸款的比例也都不確定…… |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
0.959 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-04-08T09:37:48.158000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-04-08T09:38:06.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
沒關係，這是我合理的懷疑，我知道你也不敢承認、也不敢特別說不考慮這樣子的狀況，如同剛剛部長所講，增資的目的絕對不是打虧，增資的目的是為了改善，並創造更多的盈餘收入。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0.973 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-04-08T09:38:06.545000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-04-08T09:38:10.787000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
只是我想不出你的改善為什麼要花那麼多錢，我想不出來。 |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-04-08T09:38:10.967000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-04-08T09:38:17.089000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
我開過公司，也做過產業，所以我幫你想的方案是這樣，你不承認也沒關係。 |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-04-08T09:38:17.089000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-04-08T09:38:18.830000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
再來請台電，請主席再給我一點時間。 |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0.733 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-04-08T09:38:23.668000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-04-08T09:38:30.793000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
這裡頭有關電力設備的採購是252億美金，大概7,560億。 |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
0.85 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-04-08T09:38:31.254000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-04-08T09:38:43.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
我也幫台電算了一本帳，我把核二、核三重啟的費用大概抓一下，包含西屋檢查設備的汰換在內，核三部分大概600億。 |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0.826 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-04-08T09:38:43.883000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:05.298000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
我們假設核二也差不多，就算1,200億到1,300億，然後我幫你們把天然氣發電機組採購算進來，包含協和、興達和大潭，我大概抓2,024億，加起來差不多三千六百多億。 |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.778 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:05.298000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:21.412000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
所以252億美元的電力設備採購，如果我把這幾個加起來，包含核電重啟跟燃料棒、包含燃氣機組，我們先假設都沒採購好，這樣子還剩四千三百多億。 |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.831 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:21.412000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:30.697000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
我想問台電，當時在ART簽這252億美金電力採購時，有被要求要採購什麼項目嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.879 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:31.977000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:37.379000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
跟委員報告，你上面寫了好多項目，所以不是只有台電。 |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.818 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:37.379000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:37.760000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
252億不是只有台電？ |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:38.060000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:43.342000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
你看上面內容寫了很多，還有什麼設備等等的一大堆東西，不是只有…… |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:46.420000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:46.900000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
台電的項目是什麼？ |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
0.625 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
曾董事長文生：台電的項目是這樣的。我們提供的資訊是 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-04-08T09:39:51.523000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-04-08T09:39:59.870000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
因為我們要增氣減煤，所以我會增加天然氣的機組採購，我預計要做的天然氣機組的採購，就包含…… |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0.775 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:00.170000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:00.991000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
這大概是占多少？ |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[61].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[61].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:01.491000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[61].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:15.440000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].text |
包含大林的機組、通霄的機組等等，這些都要依據採購法來辦公開採購，至於已經採購的，像剛才我講的大林跟通霄，通霄機組就不是美國得標啊，通霄機組是日本得標…… |
| transcript.gazette[61].quality |
0.853 |
| transcript.gazette[62].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[62].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:15.560000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[62].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:16.541000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].text |
我沒有問你得標，我現在是問你，採買項目跟這個……你到時候再列一個報告給我…… |
| transcript.gazette[62].quality |
0.906 |
| transcript.gazette[63].speaker |
曾董事長文生 |
| transcript.gazette[63].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:16.541000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[63].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:17.541000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].text |
我們買了天然氣機組…… |
| transcript.gazette[63].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[64].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[64].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:16.561000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[64].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:37.994000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].text |
因為我想要問的是經貿談判代表嘛，當時這252億到底要買什麼，你不要又給我變成是1.25兆的國防軍購啊，就是不曉得要買什麼東西，這就是我擔心的啊，我不反對你們去買，但買的要有價值，對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[64].quality |
0.937 |
| transcript.gazette[65].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[65].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:38.935000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[65].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:41.356000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].text |
因為這個錢我算出來就是4,300億臺幣不知道跑去哪裡了。 |
| transcript.gazette[65].quality |
0.652 |
| transcript.gazette[66].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[66].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:43.617000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[66].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:49.321000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].text |
最後，因為我占用太多時間了，後面就是從這邊開始，好不好？謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[66].quality |
0.769 |
| transcript.gazette[67].speaker |
洪委員毓祥 |
| transcript.gazette[67].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:49.321000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[67].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:49.441000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].text |
這樣可以嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[67].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[68].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[68].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:51.550000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[68].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:51.570000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].text |
好，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[68].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[69].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[69].start |
2026-04-08T09:40:52.070000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[69].end |
2026-04-08T09:40:55.212857+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].text |
接下來請張嘉郡委員質詢。 |
| transcript.gazette[69].quality |
0 |