| IVOD_ID |
168153 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/168153 |
| 日期 |
2026-04-01 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-26-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-04-01T12:07:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-04-01T12:22:56+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| 支援功能[1] |
gazette |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6ae3a98a11df106cbec18e1d7376a5257570c8d4d2e9dc78994a069f48f295f3498159baeeef385c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
涂權吉 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:07:43 - 12:22:56 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-04-01T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、原住民族委員會就「穩定原住民族就業、改善低薪與勞動權益保障，並縮小職業災害發生率及死亡率差距之執行現況與精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部、衛生福利部就「開放家有十二歲以下子女家庭逕行申請外籍家事移工政策，對本國勞工就業、照顧體系負擔、兒童最佳利益及相關權益保障之衝擊評估與制度配套」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
邀請勞動部、衛生福利部、行政院、行政院人事行政總處、銓敘部、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、法務部，就「職場霸凌申訴機制之檢討：以顏慧欣案為例，如何建構員工心理健康與職場保障機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【專題報告綜合詢答】） |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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涂委員權吉 |
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蔡處長獻緯 |
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蔡處長獻緯 |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1.052 |
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好謝謝主席那請我們保訓會蔡處長和行政院副秘書長請蔡處長及副秘書長我也好好我先請問一下處長那如果公務人員遭受霸凌我們通常是依據什麼法規來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
36.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
公務員報告是依照公務人員保障法以及公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
60.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那根據工人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法裡面他有一個各機關應組成安全及衛生防護委員會那就是我們講防護委員會他在處理職場霸凌的事件那通常他都上面有寫通常是由機關的副首長或者幕僚長來擔任召集人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
86.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
對嘛然後其中當然也會聘請我們相關的專家學者不能少於三分之一這是我們裡面的處理辦法的條例那像我們這一次爆發我們研會新副代表這個高階談判代表的事件那他上面就是我們的政務委員跟行政院那他的法規上所以看起來應該 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
89.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
105.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
他的機關副首長應該就是我們的行政院副院長鄭麗君那他的幕僚長就是我們的經貿談判代表楊貞妮不是這樣是嗎如果照你規章的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
106.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
126.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
跟委員報告那行政院本部目前也有設置防護委員會那我們總共有12位委員那裡面有5位是外聘的那我們的召集人是我們的幕僚長秘書長對但是我剛剛講的那兩位其實也是可以擔任只是你這次是因為迴避嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
127.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
154.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以請秘書長來擔任這次的召集人不是 我們那是常設的編組好 那重點是這次我們我看我們這次行政院昨天下午提的這份專案報告那召集人是我們行政院的秘書長行政院秘書長他提這個報告那針對這部分報告說是依據我們行政院院本部職場霸凌防制申訴及調查處理的要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
155.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
180.08 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那我想請問一下這個要點是什麼時候公布的去年年底那奇怪那這個為什麼這要點我們在網路上都查不到我們行政院本部有這個要點我們有做內部公告但是所以是有這個要點只是我們查不到所以我想了解說因為我們都查不到這個要點 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
182.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
196.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
然後一般來講像我們很多像司法院環境部各單位都有公布這個要點而且他針對這個委員會的名單都有訂定都有公布反而我們行政院這邊我們是看不到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
197.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
213.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
所以我在想說到底是不是有這個要點還是因為這次事情發生我們才去成立這個要點去做處理沒有 這個我們是根據保訓會的安慰辦法然後修我們自己的內規然後再重新設立 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
214.241 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
237.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
好 那重點就是我們當然也看得到像我們成立這個調查小組如果當事人關係人雖然他有可能是我們機關副首長或者幕僚長但是如果跟他有相當的關係的話當事人當然是一定要迴避的嘛所以這次由秘書長擔任是沒有問題但是我們疑義的是 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
238.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
255.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
其實秘書長來去做這個調查小組的召集人但是副院長跟幕僚長跟他的關係也是相當密切那會不會對於這個中立性或者政治力的介入我覺得大家是有疑義的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
256.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
281.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
跟委員報告這一次的調查小組的話我們四位都是外聘委員完全沒有我們內部的委員參與調查出來以後他會寫結案報告結案報告我們會送到防護委員會來開會原先防護委員會的召集人是我們的秘書長他因為也是我們對美貿易小組的成員所以他會自請迴避 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以這份報告來提會討論的時候他會自請迴避自請迴避的時候我們委員之間會互為代理推舉一個主席來主持這個會議好12位裡面有4位是外聘的有5位是外聘的5位是外聘的就是外聘的專家學者那其他的部分是我們行政院內部的機關的人員那 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
314.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這一次的調查小組 那我請問一下這個外部的人員外部聘任是由誰去聘任 由誰來挑選 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
316.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
333.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
外部聘任的話,因為這次保訓會是修改了規定以前我們就有性騷的成員,以前也有霸凌的小組這次我們是把他合併起來,我們就是用原來的委員來繼續留任 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
340.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
359.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
因為我們 據我們了解啦其實這外聘委員還是由我們機關裡面去聘任的所以就算這12人裡面有7個是我們機關的成員另外5個雖然是外部聘任可是挑選聘任還是由我們機關的人員去聘任所以我們認為這個公正性 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
361.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
379.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
其實有待考量啦那尤其像這次我們顏慧欣副代表的事件據我們了解其實她進去之後去年九月份就因為壓力很大就開始請病假就開始請病假之後2月19號請辭王一鳴委員質詢的時候院長也 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
385.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
411.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
當場就有承認說2月19號池城裡面他已經知道他有陳情因為工作上的這些的問題所以2月19號也就池城提出來卓院長也知情這件事情也知悉了那到12月到3月12號那個顏慧欣副代表往生結果也沒有看到去調查這件事情那當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
413.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
431.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個事情我們真正社會大眾知道是3月26號我們社群網站披露之後我剛剛也有聽我們副秘書長講因為社群網站在3月26號披露之後我們才正式成立調查小組去調查做處理沒有錯吧那所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
435.717 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
465 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們今天要討論的就是我覺得我們這個機制上應該是有一些問題啦你這個霸凌申訴的管道你看12個成員裡面7個就是我們機關裡面的成員5個外聘也是由機關去挑釁那等於12個都是你們決定啊那試問顏惠心代表9月份因為壓力太大你看連這個高階代表都不敢申訴何況一般的公務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
465.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
477.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而且到2月19號連卓院長之息辭呈的原因那我請問一下後來卓院長有交代處理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
503.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
昨天昨院長回覆王委員說明的時候他是說他2月19號的時候有收到院長辦公室的幕僚轉來的訊息他知道有這件事情他也交代幕僚要下去關心除了關心以外也希望嚴副總談判代表他好好休養身體康復以後繼續來為國服務是給他慰留的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
508.334 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
509.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我有聽副秘書長講啊所以其實你們都不知道這件事情所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
513.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
539.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
講實在話就是沒有交辦去調查嘛對不對當時我們是真的沒有調查因為你剛剛我有聽嘛你回答其他委員說你們根本不知道這件事情是後來王育民委員提出質詢你們才知道喔原來2月19號院長就知道那知道之後你們不清楚就表示沒有交辦那結果我們原來調查小組的成立我們這些機制看起來都沒用 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
540.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
567.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
而且連行政院長知道也沒處理真正調查小組成立的關鍵點在哪裡原來在社群網站披露之後我們調查小組才依輿論成立調查小組所以這個機制跟行政院長其實看起來都沒有處理這件事情難怪一般的公務人員認為這個申訴管道基本上是沒有效益的而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
569.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
576.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
剛剛講12個委員7個是你機關的人另外5個還是機關指定你不覺得一般公務員敢申訴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
579.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
608.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
跟國民報告 那我們近兩年來的時候呢我們確實也有一些霸凌的申訴案那我們也運作這個機制的時候呢齁那其實也是很順利的運作啦因為我們參加這個委員會的同仁的時候呢大家都有一個認知啦因為你處理事情一定要公正客觀然後呢 你對執行職務的部分的時候你要做保密的義務啦那基本上 我自己的觀察啦我們這一兩年來我們在運作上的時候我們都確保這兩個大前提 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
609.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
638.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
不是啊你保密我們接受啊重點根本沒有辦啊我沒有叫你公開啊問題是確實你也承認從2月19號院長知道之後也沒有處理也沒有交辦所以我說這個事情你看從之前勞動部現一種職場霸凌的事件我們開始一直爆發我們整個行政體系職場霸凌的事情我說講啊人之將死其言也善啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
639.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
656.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
連我們顏惠心都已經在加護病房病他上提出辭呈而且很明確講辭職的原因就是因為在職場上在行政院和工作上遭受到 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
657.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
686.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
職場的霸凌已經講得很清楚了而且還是沒處理最後處理還是因為3月26號社群網站披露不用人交辦原來只要媒體披露自然調查小組就成立了所以這個申訴機制包含我們的行政院的最高行政首長也都沒處理試問我們民眾對政府公部門這個公信力怎麼會有信心 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
689.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
708.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以我希望喔 保訓會啊保訓會針對剛剛本席提的這些問題啊我們講啊 我們沒有超前部署也沒有及時處理我們只好退而求其次啊拜託 亡羊補牢總可以吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
709.747 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
729.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
希望後續針對我們剛剛講的這些文官體制這些後續研議它的方向跟你們要怎麼去做可不可以提出來怎麼去研議怎麼去改善我們這些申訴管道的機制你想想看12個委員7個內部聘的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
730.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
757.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
五個聽起來很好聽外部專家學者但是這都是你決定要用誰就用誰啊連陳情到行政院長也沒處理我們這個申訴管道基本上我覺得漏洞百出所以難怪職場霸凌的問題層出不窮保訓會是不是後面可以給我們提出一個書面演繹如何去改善這個方向要怎麼去做 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
759.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
787.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
可以提出這書面報告嗎我希望這個事情我們一直講從去年勞動部發生到現在而且從勞動部發生之後我們才發現這個事情層出不窮而且每次都等到人往生之後才去檢討這件事情我說今天這個事情如果不是在3月26號社群網站披露 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
787.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我們怎麼知道原來2月19號他的辭呈早就像行政院長說的清清楚楚但是根本連辦都沒有辦連處理都沒有處理連行政院都不知道這件事情是不是保訊會後面亡羊補牢吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
806.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
818.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
總委員報告一下就是行政院這個案子其實他是非因申訴而之襲那如果前面他收到包含像是社群媒體所接收到的資訊甚至是像行政院長收到的簡訊類似這一類的資訊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
821.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
849.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
對於機關來說他還是必須要進行一部分的去認定啦所以我剛剛有講啦之後才會進到防護委員會處長我剛剛有講啦所以我剛剛為什麼說外部委員的成員的性質應該是沒有什麼關係啊所以我剛剛有講啦你看我們根據公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法這個防護委員會他裡面他規章召集人是我們機關的副首長跟幕僚長 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
851.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
878.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
可是很有可能這個召集人就是當裡面的關係人也有可能就是當事人再加上你另外就算聘的召集人也是他的下屬啊他怎麼去執行他是不是在調查過程中是不是還要回去請示他的長官可不可以這樣子調查然後12個委員會裡面7個都是你們自己人連另外唯一的5個還是由你們指定來聘任 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
879.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
907.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
哪裡來的公信力難怪現在這個霸凌事件層出不窮每次爆發都是人往生之後再來檢討我說啊從去年前年等等發生了那麼多事情勞動部霸凌事件就說要深切的檢討到現在也沒超前部署也沒有及時處理又要亡羊補牢所以我覺得保訓會希望你真的提出一個研議的方向跟改善的辦法 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
909.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
912.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
好謝謝好謝謝涂謙俊委員的發言待會兒陳穎委員質詢 |
| transcript.gazette[0].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[0].start |
2026-04-01T12:07:44.552000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[0].end |
2026-04-01T12:07:44.732000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[0].text |
謝謝主席。 |
| transcript.gazette[0].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[1].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[1].start |
2026-04-01T12:07:45.332000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[1].end |
2026-04-01T12:07:50.434000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[1].text |
請保訓會蔡處長和行政院副秘書長。 |
| transcript.gazette[1].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[2].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[2].start |
2026-04-01T12:07:50.434000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[2].end |
2026-04-01T12:07:51.655000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[2].text |
請蔡處長及副秘書長。 |
| transcript.gazette[2].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[3].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[3].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:04.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[3].end |
2026-04-01T12:08:04.079000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[3].text |
委員好。 |
| transcript.gazette[3].quality |
0.333 |
| transcript.gazette[4].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[4].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:04.779000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[4].end |
2026-04-01T12:08:11.082000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[4].text |
我先請問一下處長，如果公務人員遭受霸凌，我們通常是依據什麼法規處理？ |
| transcript.gazette[4].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[5].speaker |
蔡處長獻緯 |
| transcript.gazette[5].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:14.633000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[5].end |
2026-04-01T12:08:19.581000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[5].text |
是依照公務人員保障法以及公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法的規定。 |
| transcript.gazette[5].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[6].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[6].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:22.373000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[6].end |
2026-04-01T12:08:35.924000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[6].text |
根據公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法，各機關應組成安全及衛生防護委員會，就是我們講的防護委員會，由它處理職場霸凌的事件。 |
| transcript.gazette[6].quality |
0.912 |
| transcript.gazette[7].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[7].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:38.326000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[7].end |
2026-04-01T12:08:44.531000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[7].text |
上面有寫，通常是由機關的副首長或者幕僚長擔任召集人，對嘛？是。 |
| transcript.gazette[7].quality |
0.963 |
| transcript.gazette[8].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[8].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:45.632000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[8].end |
2026-04-01T12:08:54.198000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[8].text |
其中當然也會聘請相關的專家學者，不能少於三分之一，這是處理辦法的條例。 |
| transcript.gazette[8].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[9].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[9].start |
2026-04-01T12:08:55.099000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[9].end |
2026-04-01T12:09:27.141000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[9].text |
像這次爆發顏慧欣副代表，這個高階談判代表的事件，他的長官就是政務委員和行政院，就法規看起來，機關副首長應該就是行政院副院長鄭麗君，幕僚長就是經貿談判代表楊珍妮，不是這樣？是嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[9].quality |
0.887 |
| transcript.gazette[10].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[10].start |
2026-04-01T12:09:27.341000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[10].end |
2026-04-01T12:09:28.062000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[10].text |
照規章規定的話。 |
| transcript.gazette[10].quality |
0.714 |
| transcript.gazette[11].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[11].start |
2026-04-01T12:09:30.751000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[11].end |
2026-04-01T12:09:43.938000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[11].text |
行政院院本部目前也有設置防護委員會，我們總共有12位委員，裡面有5位是外聘的，召集人是我們的幕僚長、秘書長。對。 |
| transcript.gazette[11].quality |
0.979 |
| transcript.gazette[12].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[12].start |
2026-04-01T12:09:43.938000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[12].end |
2026-04-01T12:09:49.261000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[12].text |
但是我剛剛講的那兩位其實也可以擔任，只是你們因為要迴避嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[12].quality |
0.926 |
| transcript.gazette[13].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[13].start |
2026-04-01T12:09:50.898000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[13].end |
2026-04-01T12:09:53.140000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[13].text |
所以請秘書長擔任這次的召集人。 |
| transcript.gazette[13].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[14].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[14].start |
2026-04-01T12:09:53.420000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[14].end |
2026-04-01T12:09:55.582000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[14].text |
不是，那是常設的編組。好。 |
| transcript.gazette[14].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[15].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[15].start |
2026-04-01T12:09:56.422000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[15].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:06.370000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[15].text |
重點是行政院昨天下午提的這一份專案報告，召集人是行政院的秘書長。 |
| transcript.gazette[15].quality |
0.967 |
| transcript.gazette[16].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[16].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:06.370000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[16].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:07.370000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[16].text |
秘書長，對。 |
| transcript.gazette[16].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[17].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[17].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:06.370000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[17].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:17.438000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[17].text |
行政院秘書長提出這個報告，針對這部分，報告內容是依據行政院院本部職場霸凌防治申訴及調查處理要點。 |
| transcript.gazette[17].quality |
0.911 |
| transcript.gazette[18].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[18].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:19.140000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[18].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:21.842000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[18].text |
請問一下，這個要點是什麼時候公布的？ |
| transcript.gazette[18].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[19].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[19].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:23.644000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[19].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:24.564000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[19].text |
去年年底。 |
| transcript.gazette[19].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[20].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[20].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:25.565000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[20].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:34.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[20].text |
那奇怪了，為什麼我們在網路上查不到行政院院本部有這個要點？ |
| transcript.gazette[20].quality |
0.926 |
| transcript.gazette[21].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[21].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:34.393000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[21].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:35.514000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[21].text |
我們有做內部公告。 |
| transcript.gazette[21].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[22].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[22].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:37.415000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[22].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:39.677000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[22].text |
所以是有這個要點，只是我們查不到？ |
| transcript.gazette[22].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[23].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[23].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:39.677000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[23].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:40.778000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[23].text |
有這個要點。 |
| transcript.gazette[23].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[24].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[24].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:40.778000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[24].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:43.080000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[24].text |
所以我想了解，因為我們都查不到這個要點。 |
| transcript.gazette[24].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[25].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[25].start |
2026-04-01T12:10:45.870000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[25].end |
2026-04-01T12:10:59.838000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[25].text |
一般來講，像司法院、環境部等各單位都有公布這個要點，而且也有公布這個委員會的名單，反而行政院這邊我們是看不到的。 |
| transcript.gazette[25].quality |
0.902 |
| transcript.gazette[26].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[26].start |
2026-04-01T12:11:00.850000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[26].end |
2026-04-01T12:11:03.032000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[26].text |
所以我在想，到底是不是有這個要點？ |
| transcript.gazette[26].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[27].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[27].start |
2026-04-01T12:11:03.032000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[27].end |
2026-04-01T12:11:09.516000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[27].text |
還是因為這次的事情發生，才提出這個要點去做處理？沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[27].quality |
0.875 |
| transcript.gazette[28].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[28].start |
2026-04-01T12:11:09.976000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[28].end |
2026-04-01T12:11:16.040000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[28].text |
我們是根據保訓會的安衛辦法所修的內規，然後再重新設立。 |
| transcript.gazette[28].quality |
0.92 |
| transcript.gazette[29].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[29].start |
2026-04-01T12:11:18.422000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[29].end |
2026-04-01T12:11:35.394000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[29].text |
重點就是，成立的這個調查小組，當事人、關係人也有可能是機關副首長或者幕僚長，如果和他有相當關係的話，當事人當然一定要迴避。對。 |
| transcript.gazette[29].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[30].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[30].start |
2026-04-01T12:11:36.195000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[30].end |
2026-04-01T12:11:39.097000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[30].text |
所以這次由秘書長擔任是沒有問題的。 |
| transcript.gazette[30].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[31].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[31].start |
2026-04-01T12:11:39.097000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[31].end |
2026-04-01T12:11:58.182000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[31].text |
但是我們有疑義的是，由秘書長做這個調查小組的召集人，但副院長和幕僚長和他的關係也相當密切，對於中立性或者政治力的介入，我覺得大家是有疑義的。 |
| transcript.gazette[31].quality |
0.938 |
| transcript.gazette[32].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[32].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:00.163000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[32].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:15.848000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[32].text |
這一次的調查小組，4位都是外聘委員，完全沒有我們內部的委員參與，調查結果出來以後，他們會寫結案報告，我們會把結案報告送到這個防護委員會開會。 |
| transcript.gazette[32].quality |
0.841 |
| transcript.gazette[33].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[33].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:15.848000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[33].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:38.406000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[33].text |
原先防護委員會的召集人是秘書長，因為他也是對美貿易小組的成員，所以這份報告提會討論的時候，他會自請迴避，委員之間會互為代理，推舉一個主席主持這個會議。 |
| transcript.gazette[33].quality |
0.986 |
| transcript.gazette[34].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[34].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:39.146000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[34].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:40.828000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[34].text |
12位裡面有4位是外聘的？ |
| transcript.gazette[34].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[35].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[35].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:41.488000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[35].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:42.409000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[35].text |
有5位是外聘的。 |
| transcript.gazette[35].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[36].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[36].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:42.569000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[36].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:44.791000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[36].text |
5位是外聘的，就是外聘的專家學者。對。 |
| transcript.gazette[36].quality |
0.933 |
| transcript.gazette[37].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[37].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:45.591000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[37].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:48.153000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[37].text |
其他是行政院內部的機關人員。 |
| transcript.gazette[37].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[38].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[38].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:48.153000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[38].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:51.176000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[38].text |
內部的同仁，對。 |
| transcript.gazette[38].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[39].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[39].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:51.176000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[39].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:57.292000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[39].text |
這一次的調查小組，請問一下外部人員是由誰聘任？ |
| transcript.gazette[39].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[40].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[40].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:57.773000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[40].end |
2026-04-01T12:12:57.954000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[40].text |
由誰挑選？ |
| transcript.gazette[40].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[41].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[41].start |
2026-04-01T12:12:59.857000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[41].end |
2026-04-01T12:13:05.262000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[41].text |
外部聘任的話，因為這次保訓會有修改規定嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[41].quality |
0.895 |
| transcript.gazette[42].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[42].start |
2026-04-01T12:13:05.882000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[42].end |
2026-04-01T12:13:16.531000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[42].text |
以前我們就有性騷的小組成員，也有處理霸凌的小組，這次我們是把它合併起來，合併之後由原來的委員繼續留任。 |
| transcript.gazette[42].quality |
0.787 |
| transcript.gazette[43].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[43].start |
2026-04-01T12:13:24.458000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[43].end |
2026-04-01T12:13:25.059000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[43].text |
據我們了解啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[43].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[44].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[44].start |
2026-04-01T12:13:25.279000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[44].end |
2026-04-01T12:13:28.042000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[44].text |
其實外聘委員還是由機關聘任。對。 |
| transcript.gazette[44].quality |
0.929 |
| transcript.gazette[45].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[45].start |
2026-04-01T12:13:29.023000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[45].end |
2026-04-01T12:13:45.998000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[45].text |
所以就算這12人裡面，有7個是機關的成員，另外5個雖然是外部聘任，可是還是由機關的人員挑選聘任，所以我們認為這個公正性有待考量啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[45].quality |
0.964 |
| transcript.gazette[46].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[46].start |
2026-04-01T12:13:46.779000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[46].end |
2026-04-01T12:14:17.345000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[46].text |
尤其像這次顏慧欣副代表的事件，據我們了解，其實他進去之後，去年9月份就因為壓力很大開始請病假，之後在2月19日請辭，王育敏委員質詢的時候，院長也當場承認，依據2月19日的辭呈，他已經知道他有陳情，是因為工作上的這些問題。 |
| transcript.gazette[46].quality |
0.871 |
| transcript.gazette[47].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[47].start |
2026-04-01T12:14:17.345000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[47].end |
2026-04-01T12:14:34.177000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[47].text |
所以2月19日辭呈提出來，卓院長也知悉這件事情了，到3月12日顏慧欣副代表往生，並沒有看到你們去調查這件事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[47].quality |
0.822 |
| transcript.gazette[48].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[48].start |
2026-04-01T12:14:34.877000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[48].end |
2026-04-01T12:14:53.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[48].text |
當然，這個事情真正被社會大眾知道，是在3月26日社群網站披露之後，我剛剛也有聽副秘書長講，社群網站3月26日披露之後，才正式成立調查小組去調查、處理，沒有錯吧？ |
| transcript.gazette[48].quality |
0.939 |
| transcript.gazette[49].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[49].start |
2026-04-01T12:14:53.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[49].end |
2026-04-01T12:14:54.826000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[49].text |
對，沒有錯。 |
| transcript.gazette[49].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[50].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[50].start |
2026-04-01T12:14:53.966000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[50].end |
2026-04-01T12:15:03.961000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[50].text |
所以我們今天要討論的是，我覺得這個機制應該是有一些問題啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[50].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[51].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[51].start |
2026-04-01T12:15:05.002000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[51].end |
2026-04-01T12:15:18.252000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[51].text |
這個霸凌申訴的管道，你看，12個成員裡面，7個是機關裡面的成員，5個外聘的也是由機關挑任，等於12個都是你們決定的啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[51].quality |
0.936 |
| transcript.gazette[52].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[52].start |
2026-04-01T12:15:20.534000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[52].end |
2026-04-01T12:15:28+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[52].text |
試問，顏慧欣代表9月份因為壓力太大開始請假，你看連高階代表都不敢申訴，何況一般的公務人員。 |
| transcript.gazette[52].quality |
0.85 |
| transcript.gazette[53].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[53].start |
2026-04-01T12:15:28.800000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[53].end |
2026-04-01T12:15:40.048000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[53].text |
而且，2月19日卓院長知悉辭職的原因，請問一下，後來卓院長有交代處理嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[53].quality |
0.862 |
| transcript.gazette[54].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[54].start |
2026-04-01T12:15:42.995000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[54].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:06.511000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[54].text |
昨天卓院長回復王委員的時候，他是說2月19日有收到院長辦公室幕僚轉來的訊息，他知道有這件事情，也交代幕僚要去關心，除了關心以外，也希望顏副總談判代表好好休養，身體康復以後繼續為國服務，是予以慰留的。 |
| transcript.gazette[54].quality |
0.932 |
| transcript.gazette[55].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[55].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:11.334000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[55].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:11.615000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[55].text |
我有聽副秘書長講啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[55].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[56].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[56].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:11.795000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[56].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:18.802000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[56].text |
但你們都不知道這件事，所以講實在話，就是沒有交辦調查嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[56].quality |
0.96 |
| transcript.gazette[57].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[57].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:19.842000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[57].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:20.022000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[57].text |
對不對？ |
| transcript.gazette[57].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[58].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[58].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:20.022000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[58].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:20.923000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[58].text |
當時我們是真的沒有。 |
| transcript.gazette[58].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[59].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[59].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:21.963000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[59].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:22.443000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[59].text |
剛剛我也有聽到嘛！ |
| transcript.gazette[59].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[60].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[60].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:22.623000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[60].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:26.225000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[60].text |
你回答其他委員時是說，你們根本不知道這件事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[60].quality |
0.905 |
| transcript.gazette[61].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[61].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:26.225000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[61].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:27.225000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[61].text |
當時我們不知道。 |
| transcript.gazette[61].quality |
0 |
| transcript.gazette[62].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[62].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:27.005000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[62].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:36.168000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[62].text |
是後來王育敏委員提出質詢，你們才知道原來2月19日院長就知道，但他知道之後，你們卻不清楚，就表示沒有交辦。 |
| transcript.gazette[62].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[63].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[63].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:38.869000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[63].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:46.367000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[63].text |
雖然調查小組有成立，但這些機制看起來都沒有用，而且連行政院長知道了也沒有處理。 |
| transcript.gazette[63].quality |
0.806 |
| transcript.gazette[64].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[64].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:47.347000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[64].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:49.909000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[64].text |
調查小組真正成立的關鍵點在哪裡？ |
| transcript.gazette[64].quality |
0.867 |
| transcript.gazette[65].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[65].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:49.909000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[65].end |
2026-04-01T12:16:58.354000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[65].text |
原來是在社群網站披露之後，才依輿論成立調查小組。 |
| transcript.gazette[65].quality |
0.955 |
| transcript.gazette[66].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[66].start |
2026-04-01T12:16:58.354000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[66].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:09.981000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[66].text |
所以不管是這個機制或是行政院長，看起來都沒有處理這件事情，難怪一般公務人員認為這個申訴管道基本上是沒有效益的。 |
| transcript.gazette[66].quality |
0.904 |
| transcript.gazette[67].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[67].start |
2026-04-01T12:17:10.481000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[67].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:19.994000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[67].text |
而且，剛剛講有12個委員，7個是你們機關的人，另外5個也是機關指定，你覺得一般公務人員敢申訴嗎？ |
| transcript.gazette[67].quality |
0.897 |
| transcript.gazette[68].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[68].start |
2026-04-01T12:17:24.187000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[68].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:44.737000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[68].text |
近兩年來，我們確實也有一些霸凌的申訴案，我們運作這個機制的時候，其實也是很順利的，因為參加這個委員會的同仁，大家都有一個認知，就是處理事情一定要公正客觀，執行職務的時候有保密的義務。 |
| transcript.gazette[68].quality |
0.964 |
| transcript.gazette[69].speaker |
李副秘書長國興 |
| transcript.gazette[69].start |
2026-04-01T12:17:45.518000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[69].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:51.641000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[69].text |
基本上就我自己的觀察，我們這一、兩年來在運作時都會確保這兩個大前提。 |
| transcript.gazette[69].quality |
0.935 |
| transcript.gazette[70].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[70].start |
2026-04-01T12:17:52.521000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[70].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:53.881000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[70].text |
你們保密，我們接受啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[70].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[71].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[71].start |
2026-04-01T12:17:54.442000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[71].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:56.522000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[71].text |
但重點是根本沒有辦啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[71].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[72].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[72].start |
2026-04-01T12:17:58.363000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[72].end |
2026-04-01T12:17:59.743000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[72].text |
我沒有叫你們公開啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[72].quality |
0.889 |
| transcript.gazette[73].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[73].start |
2026-04-01T12:18:00.423000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[73].end |
2026-04-01T12:18:07.145000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[73].text |
問題是你也承認，2月19日院長知道之後沒有處理，也沒有交辦。 |
| transcript.gazette[73].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[74].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[74].start |
2026-04-01T12:18:08.205000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[74].end |
2026-04-01T12:18:17.328000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[74].text |
你看，從之前勞動部謝宜容職場霸凌事件開始，一直爆發行政體系的職場霸凌事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[74].quality |
0.882 |
| transcript.gazette[75].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[75].start |
2026-04-01T12:18:18.068000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[75].end |
2026-04-01T12:18:44.814000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[75].text |
我認為人之將死其言也善，顏慧欣已經躺在加護病房的病榻上提出辭呈，而且很明確的講，辭職的原因就是因為在職場上、在行政院、在他的工作上，遭受到職場霸凌，他已經講得很清楚了，但還是沒有處理。 |
| transcript.gazette[75].quality |
0.831 |
| transcript.gazette[76].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[76].start |
2026-04-01T12:18:45.314000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[76].end |
2026-04-01T12:18:55.597000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[76].text |
最後會處理，還是因為3月26日被社群網站披露，所以不用人交辦，原來只要媒體披露，調查小組自然就成立了。 |
| transcript.gazette[76].quality |
0.837 |
| transcript.gazette[77].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[77].start |
2026-04-01T12:18:56.117000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[77].end |
2026-04-01T12:19:09.300000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[77].text |
所以這個申訴機制，包含行政院的最高行政首長都沒有處理，試問，民眾對政府公部門的公信力怎麼會有信心？ |
| transcript.gazette[77].quality |
0.956 |
| transcript.gazette[78].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[78].start |
2026-04-01T12:19:12.315000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[78].end |
2026-04-01T12:19:29.911000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[78].text |
所以保訓會，針對剛剛本席提的這些問題，沒有超前部署，也沒有及時處理，我們只好退而求其次，拜託！ |
| transcript.gazette[78].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[79].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[79].start |
2026-04-01T12:19:29.911000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[79].end |
2026-04-01T12:19:31.433000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[79].text |
亡羊補牢總可以吧？ |
| transcript.gazette[79].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[80].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[80].start |
2026-04-01T12:19:32.747000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[80].end |
2026-04-01T12:19:48.281000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[80].text |
希望後續針對我們剛剛講的這些文官體制、後續研議的方向，以及你們要怎麼做，可不可以提出怎麼改善這些申訴管道的機制？ |
| transcript.gazette[80].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[81].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[81].start |
2026-04-01T12:19:48.942000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[81].end |
2026-04-01T12:20:00.692000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[81].text |
你想想看，12個委員，7個是內部聘的，5個外聘，聽起來是很好，有外部專家學者，但都是由你們決定，你們要用誰就用誰啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[81].quality |
0.804 |
| transcript.gazette[82].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[82].start |
2026-04-01T12:20:01.852000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[82].end |
2026-04-01T12:20:14.015000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[82].text |
連向行政院長陳情也沒有處理，這個申訴管道，基本上我覺得漏洞百出，難怪職場霸凌的問題層出不窮。 |
| transcript.gazette[82].quality |
0.905 |
| transcript.gazette[83].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[83].start |
2026-04-01T12:20:14.015000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[83].end |
2026-04-01T12:20:19.357000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[83].text |
保訓會之後是不是可以提出書面報告，如何改善這個問題？ |
| transcript.gazette[83].quality |
0.75 |
| transcript.gazette[84].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[84].start |
2026-04-01T12:20:20.237000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[84].end |
2026-04-01T12:20:20.797000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[84].text |
要怎麼做？ |
| transcript.gazette[84].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[85].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[85].start |
2026-04-01T12:20:22.414000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[85].end |
2026-04-01T12:20:24.796000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[85].text |
可以提出這個書面報告嗎？好。 |
| transcript.gazette[85].quality |
0.833 |
| transcript.gazette[86].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[86].start |
2026-04-01T12:20:26.257000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[86].end |
2026-04-01T12:20:43.691000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[86].text |
這個事情我們一直講，從去年勞動部的事件發生之後，我們發現這類事情層出不窮，而且每次都等到人往生之後才去檢討。 |
| transcript.gazette[86].quality |
0.92 |
| transcript.gazette[87].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[87].start |
2026-04-01T12:20:45.132000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[87].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:03.365000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[87].text |
今天這個事情如果不是3月26日社群網站披露，我們怎麼知道原來2月19日，他的辭呈早就向行政院長說得清清楚楚，但是根本連辦都沒有辦、連處理都沒有處理、連行政院都不知道這件事情。 |
| transcript.gazette[87].quality |
0.947 |
| transcript.gazette[88].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[88].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:04.466000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[88].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:06.288000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[88].text |
保訓會之後是不是應該亡羊補牢？ |
| transcript.gazette[88].quality |
0.5 |
| transcript.gazette[89].speaker |
蔡處長獻緯 |
| transcript.gazette[89].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:10.804000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[89].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:32.903000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[89].text |
行政院這個案子，其實是非因申訴而知悉，如果前面他收到相關訊息，包含像社群媒體所接收到的資訊，甚至是像行政院長收到的簡訊，類似這一類的資訊，對於機關來說，他們還是必須進行認定，去認定這個是否為具體事實，之後才會進到防護委員會。 |
| transcript.gazette[89].quality |
0.824 |
| transcript.gazette[90].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[90].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:32.903000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[90].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:33.723000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[90].text |
處長，我剛剛有講啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[90].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[91].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[91].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:34.603000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[91].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:35.523000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[91].text |
我剛剛為什麼說…… |
| transcript.gazette[91].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[92].speaker |
蔡處長獻緯 |
| transcript.gazette[92].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:35.523000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[92].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:38.764000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[92].text |
所以和防護委員會外部委員的成員性質應該是沒有什麼關係。 |
| transcript.gazette[92].quality |
0.692 |
| transcript.gazette[93].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[93].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:39.364000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[93].end |
2026-04-01T12:21:40.284000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[93].text |
所以我剛剛有講啦！ |
| transcript.gazette[93].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[94].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[94].start |
2026-04-01T12:21:40.804000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[94].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:01.471000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[94].text |
你看，根據公務人員執行職務安全及衛生防護辦法，這個防護委員會，依據規章召集人是機關的副首長和幕僚長，可是很有可能這個召集人就是關係人，也有可能就是當事人。 |
| transcript.gazette[94].quality |
0.958 |
| transcript.gazette[95].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[95].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:02.092000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[95].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:05.974000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[95].text |
再加上你們另外選任的召集人也是他的下屬啊！ |
| transcript.gazette[95].quality |
0.85 |
| transcript.gazette[96].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[96].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:06.495000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[96].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:07.315000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[96].text |
他怎麼去執行？ |
| transcript.gazette[96].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[97].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[97].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:08.676000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[97].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:13.519000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[97].text |
在調查過程中，他是不是還要回去請示長官可不可以這樣調查？ |
| transcript.gazette[97].quality |
0.962 |
| transcript.gazette[98].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[98].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:14.880000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[98].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:23.145000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[98].text |
12個委員裡面，7個是你們自己人，唯一的5個外部委員也是由你們指定聘任，哪裡來的公信力？ |
| transcript.gazette[98].quality |
0.861 |
| transcript.gazette[99].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[99].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:23.925000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[99].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:30.551000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[99].text |
難怪現在霸凌事件層出不窮，每次爆發都是人往生之後再來檢討。 |
| transcript.gazette[99].quality |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[100].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[100].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:31.631000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[100].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[100].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:44.581000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[100].text |
去年、前年發生了那麼多事情，勞動部霸凌事件發生後就說要深切檢討，到現在都沒有超前部署，也沒有及時處理，又是要亡羊補牢。 |
| transcript.gazette[100].quality |
0.887 |
| transcript.gazette[101].speaker |
涂委員權吉 |
| transcript.gazette[101].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:45.162000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[101].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[101].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:52.788000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[101].text |
所以我希望保訓會真的要提出一個方向和改善的辦法，謝謝。 |
| transcript.gazette[101].quality |
0.84 |
| transcript.gazette[102].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[102].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:53.430000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[102].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[102].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:54.433000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[102].text |
謝謝涂權吉委員的發言。 |
| transcript.gazette[102].quality |
0.8 |
| transcript.gazette[103].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[103].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:55.256000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[103].guessed |
|
| transcript.gazette[103].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:55.436000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[103].text |
待會陳瑩委員質詢完畢後，休息20分鐘用餐。 |
| transcript.gazette[103].quality |
0.412 |
| transcript.gazette[104].speaker |
主席 |
| transcript.gazette[104].start |
2026-04-01T12:22:55.936000+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[104].guessed |
1 |
| transcript.gazette[104].end |
2026-04-01T12:22:58.793143+08:00 |
| transcript.gazette[104].text |
現在請林淑芬委員質詢。 |
| transcript.gazette[104].quality |
0 |