| IVOD_ID |
167683 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/167683 |
| 日期 |
2026-03-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-5-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
5 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2026-03-19T09:15:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2026-03-19T09:28:41+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ddc1636ead3b8e59e7a21842c5fb198c9f861acbcf5e150141fe0890f16f54287dc0fecf33e734415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:15:35 - 09:28:41 |
| 會議時間 |
2026-03-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。
【3月18日及19日兩天一次會】） |
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謝謝主席 有請劉秘書長請劉秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
35.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我今天還是想跟您討論公務員的考機問題剛剛秘書長您也提到了在報告中提到然後程序部的施部長也有提到考機的部分現在你們在積極在研擬一些修法我想先請教秘書長秘書長你目前的工作你有負責打考試院同仁的考機嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
38.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
54.871 |
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考試院首長是院長但是考記的部分我自己有你有在打考記我想請教你你認為打考記是個容易的工作還是不容易的工作對主管來說它也是相當困擾的工作為什麼是困擾呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
55.848 |
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我想最主要烤雞的等地必須讓同仁信服那我們陳時中現在制度面上面烤雞現在加一等的比例分佈這個設計它有一個歷史的演變但是這個演變其實在衡量上面並不是很合理有它爭議之處 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
72.746 |
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96.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
秘書長我想請教你 請問一等到底是好還是不好一等應該基本上是說他也是被肯定所以他才會有獎金只是說我們這個甲跟乙的區別讓大家一等的同仁會覺得好像沒有被肯定最主要是因為甲等比一等多那麼多所以一等的同仁當然會覺得好像沒有被肯定不過基本上他都是稱職 合於預期的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
97.53 |
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105.393 |
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秘書長你當然這樣談說一等您覺得是肯定啦所以才有獎金啊但是我們都說是很像鴨子嘛一等就是好像我得了鴨子的這個烤雞啦所以您認為一等是正面的就是在你們定義上是這樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
114.796 |
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136.676 |
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定義上是 但是他這個制度大家覺得比較不合理就是說假等 四分之三的人是假等 四分之一的人是已等這個劃分 我們覺得需要檢討所以才會要去推動考據法的修正秘書長您說基本上已等就算是正面了但是最近有一則新聞台中地檢署在上個月被爆出 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
137.918 |
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155.548 |
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他將判決確定的這個詐欺犯 忘記執行長達五年 忘記執行 這個重大疏失吧 這是重大疏失那監察院被監察院糾正 結果地檢署他對承辦人員祭出的懲處竟然是烤雞打魚的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
156.768 |
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175.626 |
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這麼重大的疏失他是烤雞打疑等這件事讓基層公務員在網路上炸鍋一片罵聲這件事的反應跟剛剛秘書長您談的疑等基本上是正面的這麼重大的疏失他也是被打疑等這這麼大的新聞秘書長你認為這基層公務員你知道他們為什麼那麼生氣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
182.813 |
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195.526 |
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你說就這個案子還是對啊 全部炸光啊因為這個新聞下面全部都是基層公務員一片罵聲啊他犯了這麼大的錯但是他考積已等嘛跟很多人一樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
197.951 |
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217.856 |
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其實就烤雞法來講 針對表現有重大疏失的同仁其實也有別的處理方式 能夠真正的產生警惕所以我想我可以理解 大家對這個案子絕對會覺得非常的爭議那這個主管其實運用烤雞法民主黨那這個是你們職權所及嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
220.237 |
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236.993 |
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呃 這個不是我們職權好 但是我就是讓大家了解齁你選我們來看一些數字好嗎齁請你看這個統計資料這是全序部最新的公開資料喔齁那我們都知道一般的行政公務員他分成委任 建任 檢任三個官等齁那我們先看甲等的部分甲等的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
238.234 |
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242.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
比例你看從這個不同的關等你看減刃是96% 減刃是81% 委刃是71%我們再來看移等我們也是從減刃他只有3.9% |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
253.639 |
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260.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
建任是18% 委任是將近三成 28.8%那這個統計清楚呈現了我們純粹從這個統計來看官等越高 考積越好秘書長認為這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
269.79 |
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292.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
會有這個原因喔我先整體講一下就是說這些抱怨 您剛剛講了 異等同仁 覺得不公平還有大家認為烤雞關等之間的分佈不一致這些問題 意見我們都聽到那我們想要去全盤修正烤雞法其實也就是因為大家有這麼多的反應跟不平那至於以前為什麼會有這個現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
296.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
316.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我想首長在打烤雞的時候大概也會考慮到每一個人的職責的沉重程度跟他的貢獻所以他就會出現像您講的這個結果但是當然烤雞還是要針對同人就同官等之間的比較這個也很重要不能忽視烤雞法第九條您清楚嘛第九是什麼您知道嗎就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
318.52 |
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329.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
還有明定 因為你談到同官等的考積是比較範圍但實際上有沒有落實 李子密說你大概看到這些數字你心裡就有數那對基層公務員來說 這個形同虛設第九條形同虛設 現實上就是距離機關所長越靠近的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
336.367 |
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356.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個比較近的檢任官相對最容易拿到假等那基層的相對比較距離比較遠的檢任跟這個鑑認跟委任那那個疑等比率就大幅提升嘛那我想新進的菜鳥基本上就是疑等嘛所以過去這個做法相信對員工的是否是真正公平的這個評價這個很難讓人家取信吧畢竟說你同意嘛你根本覺得有不合理之處吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
360.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
377.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你同意嗎 因為這個我們看到的結果我們就這個結果來評論好 那現在就是除了甲乙等之外我們來看一下那個兵鼎等我們知道他是用來檢討跟汰除不適任的這個公務員但是也是等於沒作用 無論哪個官等其實他都小於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
378.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
401.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
百分之一啦所以說或是小於0.1所以說公務員是鐵飯碗但是偶爾就會有生鏽的鐵飯碗嘛那有時候還是因為每個機關都有事還有事一旦生鏽當然就不能夠不易使用嘛那每年不適任的公務員真的不到百分之一嗎我們在講 講成我們當中就是做一個平衡的來討論明師長你認為目前的烤雞制度真的能夠達到這個獎優太烈的一個目的嗎目前 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
408.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
432.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
真的有需要汰除的呢其實工具也是有的只是說機關文化上敢不敢下手那但是另外一方面我們也不會去否定說認為說公務員裡面一定有幾%是應該每年要汰除的因為過去曾經有這樣的討論那也引起大家很大的抱怨所以就這個部分我想應該是依照實際的狀況如果真的有表現不佳應該要處理的要處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
432.925 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
446.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
秘書長這幾天有一篇新聞麻煩你看一下存續部有提到要啟動修法那就是公務員這個考積甲等比率你取消上限我先請問秘書長現行的考積法有規定那個甲等比率上限嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
447.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
457.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
現在的法律沒有規定沒有嘛沒有嘛那事實上沒有規定這個上限喔那你所謂的假等不能夠超過75%只是一個潛規則啊潛規則用這麼久那既然這個75不是不是一直都75不是法律嘛它最早大概是應該是三分之一後來變成二分之一後來變成沒有上限後來又變回50為原則75為上限但是法律沒有這一條嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
472.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
489.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那沒有既然是前規則你又怎麼透過修法來改呢因為這個標題寫說公務員這個循序部說公務員考積加成比率的這個取消上限我們會設計簡單講我們看各國的考積制度其實應該是蔣優泰烈中間大多數都是認真 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
490.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
510.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
符合預期的同仁他應該得到相對的肯定但是我們現在那條線不應該是切在75%這個地方那這個長期演變下來的部分讓大家很困擾所以這一次修法等一下我要稍微了解你這次修法的方向這一次我們會去把那個等地做一個新的設計我想請教一下考積法多久沒有修了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
511.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
523.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這樣停滯多久幾十年 請問是多久我想了解一下像我們去年才修過一小條但是這個制度的部分有多久沒有修了很久了部長 多久20年對不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
526.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
542.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
如果整個制度來講就76年建立的但是後來有修正個別的條文我們講一個法律有一個大的架構它裡面有一些細節細節都不斷在修但是如果是大的架構 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
543.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
561.42 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
基本上就是維持76年40年沒有修啦一定沒有辦法我都稱為不只這個領域年久失修啦這個都非常重要包括將來我們司法這個組也會看到的人工生殖法二三十年沒有修所以我想請教這個目前謝謝請回那修法是現在已經完成送立法院或是說你們的進度剛剛是說在進行中嘛那我很重要的一個議題就是說問題就是說有讓基層參與嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
571.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
592.23 |
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你有讓基層公務員參與嗎剛剛部長在報告的時候他在線上等等這個只是邀請是被動式的參與但是法案公告大家就可以表示意見第二個他會我們會有一個問卷線上的那個問卷有嗎有收到基層公務員的意見表達嗎有嗎現在還沒有正要開始進行那我覺得你們應該主動找這個基層公務員團體來開會討論修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
599.165 |
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613.798 |
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就說基層公務員的團體參與要很實質的加入總不能永遠是上層的反正得到考機都是假等的人在討論怎麼來修法您同意嗎?您接受這個建議嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
615.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
622.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個全局部一定會廣泛徵詢大家的意見我要提醒這個考機法不能閉門召聚來修法如果沒有廣大基層的意見未來還是行不通或形同虛設我剛剛已經告訴你為什麼形同虛設最後秘書長我想跟您討論這個警消組工會過去有很多警消兄弟因公殉職他們面對的不是只有危險的工作環境還有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
636.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
652.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
其實不太合理的一個這個勤務制度跟績效制度所以希望能夠組工會來保障自己的權益但是這個部分考試院是反對的喔只願意修這個協會法那我想請問秘書長為什麼你們會反對這個警消組工會我想知道原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
655.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
669.737 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
警校主任會這個議題有各種意見那考試院會是協會法的主管機關不是公會法的主管機關那已經有協會法了那你擔心什麼考試院擔心什麼呢我們當然從我們的角度因為我們主管協會法我們當然會從檢討協會法來著手所以這就是我們為什麼兩度送出協會法 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
674.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
690.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
如果你們擔心罷工的問題那你就比照那個教師組工會就好啦你們可以有配套措施在勞資正義處理法當中就明定禁止罷工不就可以了嗎你知道所有醫療院所都有工會耶醫療院所都有了你們怕什麼 擔心什麼呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
691.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
697.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個議題應該是說我覺得社會要有共識啦所以就它是一個我們只要謹慎面對的議題我覺得官員在談談社會共識請問天下什麼事有社會共識呢對不對這個請教這個共識到什麼程度呢基層請教不買單你們的協會法但是畢竟你們這是你們法案那我再請教2024年9月你們已經把這個法案送到這個立法院來請問你有去推動嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
716.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
732.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你們這一年來你們有拜託召委排案嗎你有去做這個動作嗎還是說交代交差了事我記得我去年在這邊做業務報告的時候我們就講我們現在在立法院的法案就是協會法所以也請既然送交了就應該去推動嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
733.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
761.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
之前胃環委員會有排審過那個工會法開放警消組工會喔因為我就在那個但是那個主席才是因為當時民進黨立委意見很多主席才是什麼 召委才是說等考試院的協會法出來我們再一起說再一起討論可是你們現在似乎也沒有積極推動那你乾脆就支持工會法去年胃環委員會要求我們兩個月內提法案所以我們就在兩個月之內把法案送到立法院來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
761.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
770.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那我去年在法治委員會也有報告說不是只有送案啦如果你們覺得重要應該積極處理啦這個法案的排審我們就尊重委員會秘書長我的重點就是一個請你們要邀請這個而且要就是讓他們實質能夠基層公務員團體能夠實質參與討論啦這個攸關他們自己的考核現在的協會法現在的草案真的擴大很多的那個權限好謝謝秘書長謝謝主席 |