| IVOD_ID |
164971 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164971 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-03T12:43:10+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-03T12:57:05+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:55 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/64fc785e736c17e90e979c6df06290a0926af2ae94b9c1ca0effb6840739c0eca61de74c1b237c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:43:10 - 12:57:05 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處作為」，並備質詢。） |
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部長好針對潛電國造台灣民眾黨立法院黨團我們向來所抱持的政策立場是支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
22.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.376 |
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那因為支持所以在去年處理相關預算的時候我們除了要求在原型艦海策成功之前先凍結8艘50%的預算也就是有4艘的錢完全可以都同意那其他的我們並沒有做太強就是強度太強的監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
64.674 |
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理由是畢竟潛艦國造第一次做希望給我們國軍弟兄多一點的鼓勵多一點的空間讓他們去做所以我們抱持這樣的政策立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
66.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
94.629 |
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不過最近過去這段時間所發生的一些事情讓我們不得不重新的去思考重新的去調整重新的去檢討過去這段時間到底發生了什麼樣子的事情因為有非常多的國人提出質疑的事情是我們第一艘的原型艦我們總共原型艦編列的預算有多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
96.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
124.28 |
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海軍參謀長報告 因為意見是493億493億 同一個時期 日本的艙金號你知不知道他們的預算是多少報員 有掌握到媒體上面大概是151到170億之間中間的價差是 我們做的是等級比較高 比較厲害潛的比較深 開的比較快 武器比較精良嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
126.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
132.622 |
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三倍以上三倍以上的價格具體的原因是什麼 日本做150億我們做193億委員報告 他這個裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
141.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
142.041 |
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你說的是日本嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
166.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
剛剛不是說493億嗎那個要加上那個廠房的建造因為是第一艘嘛所以還有海軍的武器款那沒有關係還是比人家貴兩倍以上所以我現在問的事情是我們現在做的首艘的原型艦是潛的比較深開的比較快武器比較精良理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
212.448 |
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我想因為第一艘的這個潛艦的一個製造跟日本說自製這個潛艦他們這麼早就起源甚早了他們這個傳統的鋼鐵跟成熟的重工業支持之下他們已經具備了自製引擎跟發電機等等這些潛艦的核心技術所以他們一直有在持續建造當中可以大幅的降低建造的成本第一艘 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
213.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
235.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
給比較多的預算比較大的空間我剛剛跟部長說明過台灣民眾黨立法院黨團是支持的所以過去我們沒有多說什麼但是最近發生的一些事情我們一個一個來看去年我看法定預算你們本來今年是要編9億多 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
238.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
262.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那今年所提出來的預算書我拜讀了預算書以後是依照本部114年就是今年8月4號國海紀管制的那個令核定那核定的預算只有1億4560萬那大幅減少了8億多的金額理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
266.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
293.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
跟委員報告那今年本來原型間編的是9億但是因為這個魚雷的部分它有延遲的分批交運所以我們把扣掉的這個魚雷款要往因為沒有交運我們也就沒有付所以今年扣掉7.7億是我們今年實際上編列的1.4億全部都是魚雷的是的然後跟7月3號扶航測試的結果沒有關係沒有關係完全沒有關係嗎是的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
295.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
310.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我們接下來再來看上個禮拜媒體披露說海昆號一出港就勝水台船發了聲明嚴厲的駁斥說絕對沒有這樣的事情請問有沒有這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
314.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
332.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
報委員沒有這件事情完全沒有這樣的事情是的所以呢現在這個海昆號如果出航如果進行潛航的話會不會出現聖水的狀況你們現在有掌握嗎報委員不會有這個狀況目前都絕對不會有這樣的狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
333.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
357.928 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我們一定會是達到安全跟無魚子的狀況下來沒有關係 我今天只要一個清楚的答案一個清楚的承諾事後會不會有這樣的狀況我們留待時間用客觀事實來檢驗因為我不喜歡臆測啦媒體這樣子寫 有人提出這樣的質疑從台船的立場來看 台船一定說沒有嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
379.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為他要做這個生意他要繼續做嘛那但是外界現在對於台船是不是有這樣子的能力已經有很多雜音出來了啦那所以我希望國防部也好海軍也好有你們的立場清楚的表明讓國人安心啊因為這個不是只有記者隨便這樣寫一寫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
380.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
396.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有潛艦巡商經驗的前海軍上校黃振輝他也很擔心我們現在這個原型艦接下來會不會時程不斷延後預算無止境的追加所以你們現在編的預算第一艘要497億498億按照你們目前測試的結果夠不夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
404.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
431.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
抱怨現在第一艘目前的部分這個在人力部分台船花了比較多的這個人力的一個沒有啦所以我就問你錢夠不夠啊預算會不會再追加第一艘目前沒有第一艘不會你的意思是後期艘會嗎後續艘現在預算書表我們現在在做後續艦的剛開始在第一個年度我們會持續的針對著相關的建造跟後續的測試還有相關的裝備我們會做一個合理的估算 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
431.96 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
455.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以你的意思是之前的估算不合理嗎?抱怨就是 這個我們會審慎繼續來評估目前是啊 所以你還是沒有回答我的問題啦預算會不會再追加第一個是原型件他跟我說不會嘛我相信他嘛後續的會不會再追加是我的第二個問題我想後續件要依照這個建造跟測試實際狀況跟經驗我們來我們就來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
460.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
471.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
海昆號之前去乾屋裡面做測試嘛乾屋測試9月2號出屋了嘛到目前為止有沒有出現什麼問題針對潛航的測試下一個階段的潛航的測試什麼時候要進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
479.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
501.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們在之前兩次報告已經做說明了現在主要就是兩個測試有有有 那個報告我都有看所以我的問題是什麼時候會做潛航測試我們現在還在進行調校當中是 要調校多久我們當然是希望11月能夠進行一個相關的一個再進行扶航測試11月 有信心嗎我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
505.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
530.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
按照現在這個狀況來講我們會預期應該可以在11月來進行赴航測試可以11月測試嗎沒有啦我必須要說啦雖然是在野黨的立委但是作為台灣的一份子我們花了這麼多的心神花了這麼多的時間投入了精力去做潛艦國造我相信每一個國人跟我的心情都一樣大家都希望成功 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
531.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
559.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
沒有人希望他失敗但是我們希望他成功的同時這不是只有主觀的期待而已啊外界所提出來的一些質疑我們作為立法委員就是必須要關心是不是真的能夠如期的成功因為事實上整個的時程本來預估的時程跟你們現在報告的時程彼此之間已經出現了相當程度的落差那不是不相信你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
560.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
582.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們總要從過去客觀所發生的經驗來去擔心未來可能會出現的問題這個就牽涉到下一個我們的原型件我所掌握到的資訊我們是用瑞典一家公司的六個小功率引擎然後後續件會改成德國MTU公司的引擎這個資訊正確嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
585.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
611.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
抱怨這個資訊牽扯到商情跟後續的獲得我們建議不在這邊做好沒有關係啦你這樣說我尊重但我之所以會這樣問這都是我從公開的資訊整理出來的結果那我從公開的資訊整理出來這樣的結果以後我當然我自己不會見錢水艇啊我也不是這方面的專家那我就要去請教專家嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
612.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
628.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那專家給我的feedback提醒我們要注意的事情是說如果原型件假設啦如果如同媒體公開資訊所披露的是瑞典那家公司的六個小公寓引擎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
630.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
650.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
後續見因為有六個小公立引擎我無意去批評這家瑞典公司但是媒體上面講的話就很難聽了啦完全不合格 完全不合格那媒體這樣的批評有道理沒有道理我們事後都可以再檢視你符不符合作戰的需求嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
650.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
673.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那但是現在如果後續件改成用德國MTU公司的主機當然比較好所以才要改那現在有個問題是原型件跟後續件我們當初投入這麼大的資源做原型件就是希望它的規格相關的配備可以作為後續件一個非常重要的前道但是如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
674.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
687.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
連主機的引擎一個六個一個兩個不同的廠牌然後裡面的設計相關的空間配置完全會不一樣的話截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
689.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
711.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
截然不同的設計到底要怎麼銜接現在這個是我所徵詢的外部專家他們所提出來希望我們在國會監督的時候能夠注意的重點這樣子的問題有沒有道理還是怎麼樣銜接這件事情目前國防部已經了然於胸後續都不會出現什麼太大的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
712.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
721.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
今天我只希望知道你們的態度跟立場這些質疑有沒有道理我再強調一次後續都有時間可以檢驗請說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
725.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
743.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
呃 跟委員報告 呃 針對後續艦的不管是在構型或是其他的裝備的選取我們都會透過 本來就是會在一個選商的一個機制都會符合這個作戰的需求還有它後續的可能遇到的一個 對不起你沒有回答我的問題啊是 那跟委員報告就是說我們的原型艦跟後續艦有什麼關係還是原型艦蓋原型艦的 後續艦蓋後續艦的兩個沒有什麼關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
750.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
776.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
要說明的就是說這些我們都有審慎評估也會覺得您我們如果說是必要的這個構型的或是必要的調整都在原先的作戰需求的設計規範裡面也都是符合他作戰需求所以我就說你還是沒有回答我的問題啊我現在很狐疑的事情是當初我們支持原型艦為什麼原型艦要海撤成功後面才要解凍就第一艘成功了嘛長這個樣子沒有問題了嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
779.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
793.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那後面的部分所以我們同意解凍嘛但今天聽你給我對我問題的回覆似乎是說你們心裡好像也有準備後續線長的也跟原型線會不太一樣是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
795.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
814.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
後續件長的跟原型件會不太一樣怪表構型跟流線是一樣作戰需求不會調整至於有些動力部分調整跟剛才委員所以動力的部分是會調整嗎依照這個地方我們不做再進行討論因為這個涉及到商員跟其他有關的沒有關係啊我再講一次我們的基本立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
815.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
834.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我希望潛艦國造可以成功背負了非常多國人的期待也投入了相當多的資源但是現在非常多的質疑跟雜音都出來了在這件事情上面我們國會真的有必要後續未來也會加強監督的力道好 謝謝 |