| IVOD_ID |
164958 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164958 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-03T10:49:39+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-03T11:06:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:06 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/64fc785e736c17e98b7ee1d80198d104926af2ae94b9c1ca79fc1879a9d0e6b411b57a280f0214d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:49:39 - 11:06:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處作為」，並備質詢。） |
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麻煩請部長請部長部長早其實台灣軍購或者投資國防為什麼我們需要加大投資以及為什麼我們會有滿滿的困難我想長期在關心這個領域 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
51.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們很多人在討論這個議題都忘記了前提是什麼我們沒事喜歡花一億兩億一千億去投資國防嗎是因為什麼我們面對威脅嘛那威脅我們的是誰全世界就一個國家宣稱以武力要欺負我們的國家全世界就他而中國的軍備增加狀況部長有沒有掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
52.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
68.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
我想他都會陸續以兩倍的這個軍匪增長的速度來增加表面的數據他還有黑數我光用他表面數據至少過去連續四年每年已超過7%的幅度成長今年達到史上最高8兆 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
94.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
應該我講的是過去十年對 那我現在只算他的帳面上的我還沒有把他的武警 準軍事化還有黑術我沒有算進去我光從中國公布的數據到2025年 八兆習近平剛接任的時候2013年他們的帳面上的軍費支出是6300億人民幣 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
126.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
到現在已經是一兆多所以中國是倍增的方式然後我們是他威脅的重中之重所以有人說台灣的國防預算太多了你怎麼不去跟老共講啊拿起棍棒打我們的是中國耶我們只不過想架起一個盾牌門上上個鎖家裡裝個保全讓自己的家人可以安心一點嫌我們做太多叫我們放下武器 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
127.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
154.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
侵略者放下武器才有和平守衛者放下武器就滅國了那我在請教部長我們為什麼不到處比價來來來法國來跟我比一下價英國來跟我比一下價美國來比一下價我們買到便宜的交貨快的我們為什麼沒辦法這樣子像其他各國對外軍事採購一樣方便人家韓國為什麼可以買這一家的引擎要川普可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
179.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
供應它核子燃料做潛艇我們為什麼不能你有答案啦這個答案是常識嘛我想應該委員大家都很清楚就是因為中國在全世界封鎖嘛原因也是因為中國嘛有人講台灣買舊東西貴東西當然那個時代已經過去了我們現在買幾乎都現衣裝備但我們軍事採購會這麼困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
182.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
205.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們不是買方市場我們是賣方市場因為我們可以取得的現代化最新型的軍事裝備來源受限而受限的原因是任何國家跟台灣打交道中國就要制裁這個制裁那個這是原因啊你不把這兩個特殊的原因我們面對極大的威脅我們也面對極大的封鎖單純用好像在買賣一樣看我們面對軍購的困難對國軍不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
210.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
237.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
對我們負責採購的降臨也不公平我這樣講應該算持平吧所以我要接下來問的是幾個簡單的問題然後後來我們再討論一些項目為什麼沒辦法即時履約第一個問題是大家一直在講的我們台灣到底有沒有丟六千億放在美國那邊然後什麼都沒有拿到我們目前對美軍購已經付錢但是沒有拿到貨的到底是有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
239.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
263.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
錢已經給了 但是我沒有拿到貨的我們目前所有的案項裡面從96年開始的I3新購跟I2性能提升到最後一個案子TPS拐拐拐巴總共加起來是300餘億美元這是我們軍購的總母數啦歷年來我們總共結匯了188億餘美元 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
268.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
271.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
結會的意思就是付出去的結會應該是匯到美國匯到美國是放在我國帳戶還是放在美方帳戶有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
281.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
307.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
方委員這個部分會先進到他的FRB帳戶然後美方再依照他的產制期程從FRB帳戶提款到信託帳戶裡面但是我剛剛提的188億餘美元裡面有很多都已經實行完畢了包括1700多億你說這樣講這些數據會產生一個誤解就我看到你們的報告我理解的就是按照合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
308.536 |
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317.943 |
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他拿錢沒有給我們的其實是沒有因為我們台灣沒有當運大頭啊我不會提早把錢放在那邊等你交貨嘛所以按照合約 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
319.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
342.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們已經付錢但是他沒有一約交貨的目前其實是沒有但是有沒有延宕 有慢的有慢的部分就是說我按照合約你這個時候應該要做到哪裡了但是你還沒有達到所以我錢也不能讓你扣走嘛所以付錢不交貨 沒有但是時間到了該付錢你要交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.584 |
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371.943 |
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他沒有到我們沒有付錢但有延宕我這樣理解對不對好那我要問第二個目前按照期程的節點應該要達到這個目的但是他沒有達標所以我不付錢我看到你們報告大概就有三個項目結匯48億嘛美金嘛就這三個嘛所以我再把剛才整理一下讓國人釐清納稅人要聽懂我們在講什麼我們對美軍事採購這些重要的軍事裝備大概是300億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
373.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
394.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
但是300億美金不是我先付給他放在那裡等他交貨 沒有所以第一個命題有沒有付了錢但是沒拿到東西的是沒有這個情形但有沒有按照進度他該交東西了但是還沒有交所以我錢暫時hold住不付這個有 這個有多少呢有三大項目大概佔48億美金 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
395.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
424.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以這個小結論是我們沒有當冤大頭說錢讓人家當ATM領錢了不付這個不交貨嘛回到我們面對重大的威脅回到我們在軍事採購上的困境動輒把全世界提供先進武器最重要的盟友去製造彼此的不信任去醜化他對我們台灣到底有沒有幫助我覺得國人要去思考所以回到這48億商業項目我請教部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
426.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
450.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
我剛才把這個思路整理清楚 300億的美元的軍購案錢我們沒有 沒拿到或付錢 零而該一約給我們東西 還沒給 有延宕的有三樣 48億美金 但我錢不會付給他所以台灣並沒有當冤大頭 不會有付錢在那邊等東西 沒有這情形但現在有三個延宕 我們擔心影響戰力 第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
452.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
478.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第一個就是AGM-1547AGM-1547呢原來美方其實長期我們軍方講要買這個其實相當時間了我還印象當時美方宣布同意出售的時候我們國防委員會剛好在考察嘉義聯隊那天聽到 我還聽到一個飛官說哇 這個終於賣了這一個現在原來規劃是今年到明年會全數交運嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
480.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
507.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那你們現在寫了一些理由啦最新構型我們跟美軍是同型的嘛最新型的沒有買舊的買中古的吧包圍我們這一型比他還要再新一個世代我們是block 3所以我們拿的是美軍現役的是block 2我們現在買到的是最新型的block 3所以要重新產線啊備料啊等等所以呢慢了我第一個問題是現在慢的部分什麼時候可以履約 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
508.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
525.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
包委員 剛剛您提到的106年同意公售之後其實我們一直還沒有完成預約因為我們的構型還有我們的F16V所以2017年那一次大概就是同意而已但還沒有雙方簽約就對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
526.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
555.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我們跟美軍他們有報價但是美軍他跟次合約商就是他的次合約商一直沒有辦法完成預約因為這個你們都有報告我們現在跑快一點這一個案子什麼時候美方的回覆什麼時候可以交往我們在這個月的記管會他們提到應該在這兩年就是在116年到117可以全數的交完所以等於是往後延了兩年到2028年是 我們剛剛的報告裡面也是提到116到117會全部交代 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
556.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
579.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
2028年可以完全交運他有一個前提你現在寫的那些延宕的理由都解決了嗎目前產線都是逐漸恢復正常所以說美軍在這個月的報告告訴我們在116到117因為你寫要重啟產線什麼當時產線是因為COVID-19關了一堆還有俄烏戰爭俄烏戰爭排序優先數據改變這些因素都解決了沒如果他沒有解決你怎麼能確認20182028可以交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
582.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
602.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
是 這些都是美軍他跟次合約商評估完目前我們準備要跟他完成預約那廠商提供的這個時程表好 我們下一個項目F16V大家最關注的當時是用了特別預算來採購嘛那原定的時程是2023年開始交第一架機 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
603.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
621.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
然後到2026年全部要交到我們台灣那目前延宕我知道這是F16VK說等於是一個全新的機種了因為全新的機種它很多次系統要整合要測試所以當然會有一些困難就像一個全新的一個飛機一樣那 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
623.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
641.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
第一個問題一樣目前你們預計今年會不會交機數量我先不問今年來不及交機今年沒辦法來不及交機那一些因為測試或者因為供應鏈中斷這些原因這些因素到底是否已經排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
642.279 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
657.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
目前都已經逐漸在排除當中最主要的原因現在是在工程整合上面的問題像缺工缺料的部分這個我們也一再跟美軍做一個我簡單分享我們在生產管理上第一塊叫做技術問題嘛技術問題已經處理好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
660.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
675.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那第二個就是生產的排成啊作業流程啊現在是這一塊要把它更有效率嘛是 排成的這個部分已經在已經都回到原來的這個趕工的那所以我們可不可以講F16V原來遇到延宕的因素 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
676.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
694.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
已經解決因為你用逐漸解決我就不曉得是在解決跟還沒解決之間在遊蕩嘛就我了解應該是在最後的這個測試飛行的這個部分要能夠順利所以他現在整合裝好之後要上去做測評嘛測試飛行完成生產線就開始生產 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
695.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
719.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
生產線也同時在生產當中我們剛講的年底前應該可以組裝十架完成那現在就是再進一步再做一個測試配線年底組裝完成未必來得及交機因為還要做一個測試配線所以我剛才聽你們講是今年的交機可能不樂觀那你們預劃最後會完整交機的時間是什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
721.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
729.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們現在沒有辦法畫出一個明確的時間點但是我們能夠講的就是說整個生產線在線組裝總共有50架 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
731.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
760.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
我那天看你們報告20小時加班同時50下組裝嘛所以他很有可能一個結果就是以前我們是3架5架慢慢交他可能會一次交一大批嘛如果測試順利的話我想就會有一個比較大的數量他這樣子的騎乘會影響到我們一件事情我們通常我們的人員的編裝啦培育啦會跟著交機騎乘這樣順順的來他現在慢了突然間給你一堆 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
762.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
768.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們的飛行員跟後勤整個人的部分會不會有影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
770.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
795.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
老師各位報告這個部分我們在早在兩年前就已經開始做整體的規劃所以說人的補充的部分還有調配的部分因為我們希望能夠盡快形成戰力您剛提的這個也是我們很關注的一個焦點很快的形成戰力就是把現有的F16 block兩棟的飛行員已經也提升到16V所以說這個人員的調配我們讓盡快能夠讓他一次能夠到位我剛講的問題就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
796.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
812.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
原來我們規劃是 你逐漸交機 我們的人逐漸跟上嘛這樣訓練的時程 量能才會夠可是如果交機慢 團隊大量給你那我們也不可能訓練一批人在那邊坐著等啊那這一個部分的調配 你們怎麼處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
814.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
837.168 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
他即使是大量也不會說大量到我們沒辦法去負荷因為我們的人在明年1月1號三個作戰隊的人員都編程對 有關這個人員的部分我順帶給部長提醒一下我們陸軍的A機 AH-1 OH-58你也知道很多因為那個飛機要慢慢陸續要淘汰了OH-58D要淘汰了 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
838.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
866.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
A機你們就延後啦我只是提醒飛行員的訓練不容易是國家重要資產那如果輕易的因為裝備沒有跟上就讓飛行員離開現場這個對將來如果有新的飛機的話我們在籌貨人的話其實會我覺得會有點可惜這些都是國家優秀的資產人跟裝備我認為人還更重要所以這些飛行官不要動輒就是大量的讓他移走或者移去飛無人機 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
868.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
881.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
飛官飛官去飛無人機在尊嚴上跟待遇上他們不會接受的我最後請教我最後一分鐘請教第三個項目延宕的是這個Mk48我們Mk48呢這一個我們買到是 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
887.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
904.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那個Mod 6還是Mod 7 應該是6的嘛 第六型的嘛因為第七型是美軍最新的 我們是用現役的那本來是26年 也就是明年要完成交運那現在呢 延後到什麼時候可以交貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
906.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
934.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
跟委員報告那因為美國要能夠強化這個產線跟供應他已經重新的產線跟能量跟預算都投入進去那預計是在會在這個115年他會開始有陸續來做一個也就明年開始會陸續交貨那因為原來是2023到2026嘛那如果明年才陸續交貨我可不可以假設你們交貨時程一樣要往後順延所以最後的節點的時間會什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
935.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
962.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
最後面的節點時間應該會在這個117年到118年做最後結案美方有沒有什麼替代方案他先把現役的先借我們用因為有潛艦沒有重型魚雷這個是開玩笑啊這個也列入他們一個替代方案讓我們的戰力先補時嘛那將來交貨的時候再還給他因為是他慢的不是我們慢的因為這個項目會慢看起來好像是美國海軍部自己的問題還不見得是外面承包商喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
963.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
979.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
都有但是主要是因為承包商的供應當初的那個量沒有需求量沒有辦法預估到這個時間關係我是建議國防部好有關這個因為納稅人的錢我們對美軍購我們當然希望如期如質交付但那個所有的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
980.43 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
994.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
有一些在惡意的公結 有的是好像顯龍國防部都沒有在管錢或者讓台美之間的信任產生裂痕 這個沒有必要講對了我們改正 講錯了要提出來我們根本沒有付錢放在那邊等貨 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
995.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1012.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我們是按照節點付錢你慢我們錢就不給你台灣不肯當冤大頭而台灣軍事採購面對中國這麼大的威脅以及全球的封鎖我們的採購真的有它的困難在這困難下如果輕率的去說出國防預算太多不需要國防預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1014.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1025.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
除了對不起國軍長期的努力以外是把2300萬人的安全放在什麼地方我們的安全不能靠解放軍的慈悲我們的安全要靠自己的努力還有國際的氛圍 謝謝部長 |