| IVOD_ID |
164948 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164948 |
| 日期 |
2025-11-03 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-11 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
11 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-11-03T09:45:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-11-03T10:03:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:53 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/64fc785e736c17e92deca0d17fcc89b4926af2ae94b9c1ca8472f51db95f92275826011f50adb47c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳永康 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:45:32 - 10:03:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-11-03T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「近年國軍各項軍事工程落後及軍、商購案延宕原因分析及具體應處作為」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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我們有請顧部長顧部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
9.73 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
35.638 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
是 陈伟部长早安今天特别聚焦在所有的军购商购因为延迟交货或产生一些其他问题当然今天看到国防部以及相关的同仁大家共同努力希望在这个中间能够尽量缩短延档的时期不过在专案管理部分有一些看法要请部长稍微注意一下我们也请空军参谋长 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
41.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
64.499 |
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就是有关这个F6V Block 70当初签署发价书的时候美方有向我们表达要迁移生产线厂房要移置吗没有各位听到的只是生产线重新移开厂房换你知道从哪换到哪了 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
68.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
92.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
從德州換到南卡的格林維爾對 從德州的Fort Worth然後整個搬到南卡州的Greenvale那德州生產線是不是關掉不是 因為他還有其他的構型在身他把它做一個切割那這個在簽署發價書的時候因為沒有提所以產生的衝擊等於說美方沒有給我們一個預警時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.096 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
101.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
另外就是我們的駐場現在是派到什麼層級的人專案管理一位中校兩位少校 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
102.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
129.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我特别要强调我们派出去的专案管理人才就像以军总来讲并不只聚焦于兵科甚至是有关后勤补给采购他的专业这个钱不能省因为有月会有忌讳他要把所有的专案管理中间看到的瑕疵问题随时报回来必要的时候我们要请助长代表 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
157.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
回国来做专案报告这个是要大家努力的因为这个过去我们都疏忽了军种在培养专案管理的人才数量上显然不足也就是随着国防的预算大幅成长的时候我们只看到的兵科军官我们就是飞行员的座舱比飞机的妥善率但是我们没有看到整个专案管理中这些驻场人其实花的是小钱 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
187.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
如果你多两个人能够及时的把一些讯息或者跟美方沟通以及军事代表团相互沟通这种情况下我们三个军种都要做改进这个是现实问题不是谁不努力而是我们人才不足举一个例来讲就是国防大学的管理学院就专案管理理论上我们如果有一个重大的军事投资案其实可以委托国防大学 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
188.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
开一个专案班哪怕是两个礼拜三个礼拜不涉及机密所有合约过程军售过程这个管理东西通通要在国防大学开班我就举个例来讲我们陆军的海马斯这个已经交货了 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
甚至有人说提前交货专案管理里面只有准时交货提前不是好事提前你的库房人才备料都还没备变结果硬体来了提前交货不能延宕当然更不可那请问海马斯火箭它的数据化的这种指管系统现在在陆军战院请问教育长陆军战院有更新课程吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
242.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
跟委員報告那個有關於國軍軍力同時建範開放作客開放作客這部分我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
245.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
264.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
班隊名稱我們是開為軍事投資建案班區分為上下半年我們有各開訓一次訓習是4週週限對象是以國軍負責軍事投資建案相關的業務人員為主然後課程我們既有作業規定工業合作跟產能評估作業還有採購計畫編制作業 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
267.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
跟三類二項有關跟委員所說的數據的這個部分這個我目前沒有掌握我回去會去跟我們的教官取一個最新的數據我覺得整個我們的國軍不管是任理事或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
312.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
这个所谓整平跟资源师这个对于国军新的专案出来要给国防大学做指导不是靠教官教官他根本没有在美国铸厂过他教什么东西尤其是合约军售的条款跟商售的条款这个要用过去参与过专案的人在那个地方大家整合起来来教这个课因为现在就说你案子成立了可是没有去铸厂以前你背景都不知道也不是有经验的 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
312.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
338.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那请问海马斯的这个全部数位化的系统啊我就问在陆院你教了课了没有请问你现在的UTM公元2000年的纸本你现在还在用它做演习那你这个教学不能够只参更新你回来这些毕业的人回到部队去他心后观念这个落差非常大了我一直在这个质询过程中强调所有的重点 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
339.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
357.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不是预算多少而是你有多少人才因为没有足够的人才对这些先进的装备完全因为我没有构想这个我希望国防大学跟这个联谊市长是这边共同努力赶快把他课程了不只是在管院 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
358.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
371.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
三軍的子參學院對於新進的武器裝備導進了以後你都要交貨了你課程準則教範都來不及更新啊另外就是說這些先進的裝備武器準則教範運用保養手冊 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
372.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
390.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
原本是英文版的部隊第一批人派出去受訓他會他回來了兩年三年調差他也沒有回學校去繼續留下來教所以會產生一些落差那這個部分我們是希望大家在這個部分要強化要努力那這是第一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
395.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
407.908 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
您有要反應嗎是 包委員只是做技師的次長就如同委員所提示的其實每一件的武器裝備跟系統最重要的是它的作戰運用的構想 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
408.809 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
431.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
能夠結合聯合作戰的需求能夠納入五年兵力整建計劃裡面逐年籌購並且按照計劃專案計劃的期程來去建構包含準則的建構並且納入到教則教範以讓部隊可以去實施相關的訓練才能夠建構整體的聯合戰力這部分在我們的各項的計劃作業從採購計劃當中已經開始做相關的分析跟規劃這個向委員做說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
438.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
466.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好 謝謝我們下面再一個問題就是因為在美台國防工業的時候就提出了根據賴總統提出的要打造台灣之盾台灣之盾是一個構想還是一個完整的系統因為陸軍 海軍 空軍整個系統的指管裡面它的美方廠商跟中科院它的背景不同那這次台灣之盾是一個理想很重要但是有規劃其成嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
467.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
487.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那知道什么时候完成吗还是把现有的武器系统全部做整合过去连山曾经讲过我们要怎么讲去中心化那是指地面部队我强调了如果你去中心化你这个盾就没有了就到处是漏洞了所以一定是一个完整的系统那这个系统啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
489.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
504.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
是一個理想的那預計要多少年今天來講只是一個構想推出來那要三個軍種共同努力來達到這個目標最主要就是我們講到的這個人才在這個軍售裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
506.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
520.89 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
美方讲得很清楚不赚不赔不罚所以没有什么法律诉讼所有的问题是政府对政府而且他要求你不可以以军总代表去跟厂商谈细节那不可以的禁止的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
521.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
549.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所有铸厂的问题他看到的问题他要回馈铸厂看到的问题他是跟工程师谈的话毫无作用因为每一个美国的厂他都有律师跟会计师你不可以逾越你的合约规范他的合约是他跟美国的合约然后美国的合约是根据我们的LOR签的细节所以这个部分我们希望大家把法条要搞清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
550.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
579.58 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
讲得很清楚那其他的我也希望这边让我们的立法院同仁了解美军收的是专案管理费用那我们不可以去查那虽然做专案review的时候我们有派人那对口是美军你不能跟厂商直接谈所以在这个过程里面你看到美军一个飞机申购作业流程哪个阶段他可以挡你哪个阶段通过但不代表拿到了出口许可 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
580.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
608.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你就一切照进度那特别要讲到商售问题因为商售问题碰到的是什么就是说供应链里面的只合约商被其他厂商并购了就产生延迟交货了专案管理人被换掉了这些东西都要有法律背景的专业跟采购后勤的人参与这种就不是我们兵科军官能够直接去参与的了这个部分我就强调还是在国防大学的教育 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
609.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
629.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
以前在过去裁剪这个我们编装缘合之前过去军总都有五或四他是一个专案管理现在回到各计划处回到后勤处所以他又分开来了专案管理的人善在各地那到底是哪个长官负责全面了解这个我们需要在这个地方大家来努力 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
632.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
651.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
潛艦也是一样因为它是商售请问如果一个15年的计划20年的计划它的出口许可是几年呢没有15年的出口许可请问如果是一个长期层的合约你跟厂商签的你的美金的汇率跟台币是用多少固定值呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
652.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
662.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
15年到20年間的製造人力成本工時分攤這個都是要專案管理這個絕對不是兵科軍官一般可以了解的所以在這個裡面軍總的律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
666.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
689.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
台湾不管是汉祥的或是台船的或是其他制造厂的律师以及产生问题后要产生仲裁到第三地区的律师这个团队我想部长是专家了在这个地方您要多给指导因为现在军总来讲大家看到都是很乐观的指数而不敢去面对那种法律上的挑战问题 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
691.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
719.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
最後一個我特別再講這個是從漢光演習以來我們每天都面臨的沒有少過的那是今天早上八點半我請連山次長幫忙您看一下這問題賴總統說海巡署肩負防衛執法救援及國際合作多重工作是國安治安平安的第一道防驗就金門外島來講禁限制水域是金防部的責任還是海巡的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
722.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
741.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
包委員整體的這個整個外島防務要由外島防衛部來做整體的規劃那當然這當中牽涉到委員剛剛所提示的有關禁縣制水域當中一些狀況的應處那會整合運用包含海巡署包含我們防衛部的相關的警戒跟部署的兵力來做整體的應處 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
743.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
763.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我這樣解釋啊您講的是理念我現在告訴你這是今天早上八點半的十五條中共的商船在你的禁限制防衛部無法應處你好無作為愛國啊執法理念啊我尊重啊當初這個我們的這個政戰局還講過不接受由海巡來談 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
765.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
791.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
從頭到尾因為你在那邊沒有海軍的艦艇兵力你只有海巡的執法兵力今天早上15條商船在你的禁限制水域通過防衛司令部是無法反應請問這個圖你們有看到嗎今天早上的另外有10條商船在我們家的前院也好後院也好毛破他也不給停車費他幹嘛他排隊準備進廈門港 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
793.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
813.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
比較麻煩的是有30條商船漁船我們看不到全部是把AS關掉的灰色的他全部停在這邊以這麼龐大的數字請問金房部有能力處理嗎海巡署如何處理這個是每天壓力越來越大部長您的看法 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
815.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
833.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
跟委員報告我想國安部是就這個兩岸人民關係條29條去國安的立場我們劃設這個淨縣市水域那當然委員應該也能夠理解這個淨縣市水域因為金門過於靠近這個中國大陸的一個本土所以劃過淨縣市水域等於就是進入中國的領海這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
834.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
858.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那所以相關的這個29條我們劃設了之後呢我們就這個以這個不撐高衝突的委員的情況之下我們有海巡來做事法的一個質詢那當然在這個部分上面會有一些依照這個中國大陸的船舶他們進入的這個狀況來做事切的一個應酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
859.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
880.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
这个部分我想海巡跟海军还是会相互扮演一个互为支援的一个角色我认同部长的说法了我把现况告诉你这个现在看到的现象远超过你的负荷理论上因为它不是我的领海它是境限制水域它没有办法享有无害通过但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
881.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
903.654 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他吃你豆腐他就從你家門口大概就在近的距離大概6000碼就在你旁邊經過另外就是下毛下毛有的時候停一天有時候停兩天現在用軟體全部可以監控得到事實上是不是每天早上中午前這個狀況都有回報到我們國防部或者你自己根本就可以掌握 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
904.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
921.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
现在是因为这些不遵照法规的把AIS关闭的船的数量太多那我们的海巡远超负荷他不可能每条船去临检去驱逐那这个现象持续延续下去我们如何处置 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
923.55 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
941.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
在這個金門這個水域上面我剛剛也有已經講到了就是說商船中國大陸的這個商船的部分進入淨線是水域我們看看他要對於我們的危害的一個程度我想我們做一個視線的映出這個是現實上我們必須要考量他對於我們的這個進入的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
944.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
966.559 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
程度到底是如何但是我們當然相關還是會做一些警告等等的那警告無效我們再試這個狀況的部分來再看決定要不要做進一步的一個升高的作為但是我想在這個金門的附近的水域的維持對海巡來講的確是一個非常辛苦的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
968.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
992.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
我想就是站在國防部跟海委會陸委會在這個部分要做溝通也需要把一些訊息傳遞給對岸讓他知道這種方法對雙方的友好合作未來來講是一個障礙我們不希望人家佔我們便宜站到你門口最主要一個嚴重問題當商船在這邊下錨 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
995.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1014.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
他会排放污水也就是说他会把金门附近的水域都污染掉了那对金门的渔民来讲是不公平的那另外一个就是把AS关掉就代表他隐匿他的行踪你不知道他的门牌号码传集那这种情况下做对我们有 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1016.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1031.507 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這個反向滲透觀察那這種作為他是持續在做的那這個部分我希望國防部海委會以及陸委會大家在這個理念上要做溝通怎麼解套因為這個現象持續發生我每天都做 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1032.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1053.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
早中晚都做我都在觀察所以每一次的時候我會問各位這是今天早上的那你如何應處那你不能講海委會現在海巡署在增加製造船若干年後增加多少條那是明天的事我們只講今天如何應處這個地方要大家努力關注這也是所謂的你的一個所謂的台灣防衛盾裡面的一個element |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1054.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1071.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
今天質詢到這個地方是我想委員指教我們針對海域的執法會考慮到這個航運安全然後海洋漁業的資源漁民的權益跟還有軍事安全的這個部分來做一個比例的一個原則的世界應酬這樣子好謝謝謝謝 |