| IVOD_ID |
164769 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164769 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-9 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
9 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-29T10:21:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-29T10:33:48+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:31 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51825026aceadeec9d599e9b62584ab3efa3c61875d63c71357b98ec381cd5a4705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:21:17 - 10:33:48 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局報告「近期東亞情勢變化對我國影響之研析」，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝主席 麻煩蔡局長有請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員長局長 我在開始質詢之前我剛剛聽到兩個其實是來自中國搖眼農場的謬論那也許因為台語你沒有辦法精準掌握第一個 台灣跟美日的同盟什麼時候去威脅中國過對 沒有那是標準北京的說法 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.956 |
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台灣是被中國用軍事力量 外交力量 灰色力量威脅的國家欸美國日本就是好鄰居或好朋友幫助我們叫做 deterrence 嚇阻那樣子的威脅怎麼會說台美日合作去威脅中國這你當場沒有馬上 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.028 |
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69.35 |
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把它釐清清楚我覺得我講很清楚就是說對於中國我們沒有挑釁的是維持一個穩健的政策從頭到尾沒有做錯事嘛我們接待國際友人我們做錯什麼事我們維持國家主權獨立讓2300萬人有自由的選擇權哪裡做錯了第二個最近中國搖眼農場在散播一個台灣付了200億美金什麼6000億軍事武器都沒有來這也是假的 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.251 |
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97.572 |
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我們軍事武器採購不是錢付在那裡等它來有點像蓋房子蓋到地基要付百分多少蓋到一樓要付百分多少要到那個節點才會付那樣的費用所以根本沒有兩百億美金的錢放在那裡而且很多的項目都已經依序開始交貨所以這個當然不是你的夜館但我覺得國防部跟國安單位對這樣子的謠言很有系統性的透過中國謠言農場 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
98.593 |
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125.92 |
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透過特定的媒體透過特定的協作者在散播啊所以連國會都聽到我覺得荒謬啊好 回到我要問的題目啊這個高市早苗這一次跟川普的見面對日本來講可以說是一個從他們民調就顯示出還有他們的股票市場看出來是一個正向的發展那本席比較著重的是以台灣為核心利益來看美日的議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
129.454 |
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151.312 |
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日本有三個它叫做Three Security Documents叫做安保三文件那安保三文件剛好高市早苗在宣布參選總裁選之前我剛好到他辦公室跟他聊了一個多小時他隔天就宣布要參選自民黨總裁他那時候也跟本席提到這三個安保文件 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
152.173 |
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173.59 |
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五年就要檢討一次那他們計畫在2026年就明年的開始先talk然後最後再進行修改那在安保三個文件裡面呢有一件事情在日方很多消息面有指出日本跟台灣在軍事產業也就軍備合作上 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
174.642 |
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193.855 |
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一直過去是坦白講我們不能說有也不能說沒有所以在這個三個安保文件裡面的修訂就國安局掌握的情資或相關的訊息有關台日美日台所謂的軍備合作的可能性會不會放在這三個文件裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
194.856 |
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210.476 |
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對 它三個文件裡面當然有涉及到一些日本軍品出口管制相關的一個條文所以第一部分要看它的那個條文後續修改的狀況因為它跟維新會結盟維新會在這方面的看法跟安倍跟高市的看法比較接近那過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
212.738 |
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233.556 |
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這個公民黨是比較中間偏左所以會因為他們叫做聯力就是他們簽約結盟所以會被那個所自走現在這個自走力量沒有了又穩定了多數所以就這一個部分國安局有沒有掌握相關訊息在日台的所謂的合作的項目裡面包含軍備的合作 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
234.322 |
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262.396 |
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第一部分是針對他的那個國安山文件的一個修改那對這問題怎麼處理因為日本是個法治國家他們會非常的重視要有條文法律的依據他才會變成是一個政策這大概是第一部分要要說明的那第二部分是假如能夠有武器出口的話那他跟其他國家的合作可能要經過一些評估是要針對哪些項目因為國防產業鏈的那個供應鏈他還是有一些基本的分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
262.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
278.37 |
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那到時候可能還要再看日本在這方面的政策它有針對條文授權的哪些國家進行了解跟掌握各方面的討論好 這個是我覺得台灣在外交或國安方面對於尤其日本日本其實很照規矩它就是principle |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.071 |
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301.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
然後呢這Document修訂完之後看有沒有落實到法律然後最後官僚體系才會動未必是政治人物就可以指揮的動他那個體系是很清楚所以安保三文件的修訂其實至關重要特別在軍事工業的合作方面對台灣來講是或者對區域穩定來講都是一個正向的發展方向另外 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
302.513 |
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330.287 |
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這一次高市他就任的時候就如同剛才局長有提到他就任特別把安倍所提的台日在安全議題上是息息相關轉成白話文就是有事大家都有事那他是一個安倍路線的強硬的遂行者所以他也提出了一個特別在川普這一次造訪那跟高市的態度坦白講與石破一比較那馬上看得出來看圖就知道了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
331.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
346.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那他提到了一個美歐日台的所謂的類似的安全的同盟那這一個準安全同盟美歐日台那國安局的評估跟你們掌握訊息是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
347.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
對 剛剛有其他委員在關切這個議題那再次的跟委員做個說明那這是高市的公開的一個宣示那他也認為說要維護區域的現狀必須要理念相近的國家一起來採取具體的行動那才會包括美歐日台有一個準安全同盟這個準安全聯盟我們希望看到的現象是比方說各項的演習台灣過去並沒有辦法跟大家一起有合作的一個網絡變成個別或進階的 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
375.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
402.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那這個安全網絡裡面包含了互相在安全議題上的進退同步嘛他有很多東西要討論所以就你們掌握訊息這一件事情目前他初步的想法到底是什麼對 他這只是一個政策的概念就理念相近國家要加強合作來維護區域的和平跟穩定那具體的做法還沒有提出來但基本上現在在談安全的概念是從一個比較綜合性安全的概念在討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
403.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
416.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
因為局長你是從外交體系來擔任國安局長嘛我問一個比較簡單的問題高市所提到的美歐日台準安全同盟跟過去2018年當時的QUAD |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
447.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
會不會比較類似因為Quad也是從talk talk 從開始談到最後慢慢強化逐漸把它level up所以就目前高市提出這個準安全同盟跟Quad類比起來你覺得差異大不大因為他只是還在一個政策概念之下那要變成一個實際的政策可能還要有一個發展的過程那Quad因為已經經過多年的一個運作不管在外交上安保上都有Quad的相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
447.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
450.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為跨在2018年當時川普第一任是要把他 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
452.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
478.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
不要了啦然後呢幾乎也沒有再運作了是誰去海湖山莊呢跟川普說這個要弄的你應該也知道嘛安倍啊所以是安倍當時把QUAD從幾乎已經drop丟掉了又拿回來從對談強化到準安全同盟那所以我看到高視早描提到了這一個美歐日台有點像當年那個影子 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
503.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我不曉得你個人就國安跟你外交體系背景怎麼看這個事沒有 尊重委員的一個觀察啦那我剛剛一直在說明的是這只是一個政策的概念那後續怎麼樣變成一個落實的政策委員剛才提到他可能還需要一些比較縝密的官僚相關部會的一個作業那到時候我們再來看後續發展的狀況是怎麼樣實際的狀況是怎麼樣好 最後一分鐘我今天沒有問完我明天會繼續問 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
504.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
530.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
上一次我點出來我們相關被中共不管是公安統戰或他們的軍方點到了我們不管軍情局未來我相信也會有國安局軍情局或者我們新戰大隊或者是我們的資通電軍點名之後當然他法律不給予我們當然我們還有很多要跟有盟國家合作結果沒有想到就本席接到的兩個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
532.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們相關機敏單位的人去兩家一家公營一家私營的銀行進行更名或者詢問貸款就被提到說你是高風險可能會準的機會不大當時我就是向你質詢的我現在是問你你們掌握到為什麼會發生這事情的原因了沒 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
565.786 |
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有一些個別個人的因素不是個別不是個別我們有去了解原因是什麼有一些個別的因素因為其他相同身份我告訴你局長不是個別因素資料庫 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
567.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
592.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
KYC所有的金融行戶受險他都要Know your customer叫做客戶查詢KYC結果我們台灣的銀行KYC還不到認真喔不到真信喔KYC都是委外買資料庫做輸入查詢結果你跟我講個別我很遺憾我認為你們沒有查你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
593.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個台銀土庫 易銀 張銀他們綁的 委外的資料庫 叫做World CheckWorld Check 你進去一查我還找了銀行人員 去輸入視察他們是跟中國的資料綁在一起 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
612.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
633.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
中國的資料喔 中國公安部 中國相關資料 中國媒體公布在裡面喔 一輸入之後它有分四類一個叫做國內外制裁名單第二類 金融監理機關列管名單第三類 現任或前任政治人物PEB我們都是現任或前任喔第四類 叫涉及負面新聞結果輸入World Check |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
635.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
656.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我們這幾個機敏資料的人 就跑出來了他屬於第四個 涉及負面新聞那你注意看 像義營 華南 臺灣中小企營 兆豐金控他們去委外買的資料庫是道瓊的道瓊有一個欄位讓你勾你要不要跟中國的資料一併串你可以選擇不要那後面呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
657.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
670.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
有的應該會買兩個 你像兆豐還買了LNRS FLES這個應該是LNRS Files然後另外還有張瑩還買了Patchit Officer |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
671.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
698.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你們有沒有掌握這些資料庫裡面有沒有用中國國安部公安部統戰部相關資料在資料庫裡面你們有沒有掌握因為委員在關切這個問題啦那國防部事實上也有一個專案在處理那我們有透過那個專案去了解實際的狀況那有一些相關的因素在我告訴你截至此時此刻銀行行員如果把某一些名字也許把你名字輸入也會或者這個什麼樣的名字輸入進去 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
699.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
717.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
在台銀的資料庫是會跑出來的喔會跑出警示喔跟委員說明一下啦 國防部他有去了解啦那也有去透過其他的同仁去申辦沒有問題這個資料庫裡面因為他把 我告訴你台銀上面下令把他們移到白單了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
718.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
736.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
才變沒問題了但你核心的資料庫沒有處理你現在只把這幾個名字移到白單一輸入跑出紅色然後看到旁邊白單他就自動沒問題你講的沒問題是這個我點破啦但如果這個資料庫用中國資料庫來審核我們台灣相關人員這一個前提如果不處理還會賭到 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
738.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
749.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你沒有從結構去處理問題我今天先問到這裡後續我明天再繼續問我知道委員開過很多協調會但是也可以了解一下政府去了解跟調查的結果那到時候大家再討論怎麼來處理好 謝謝局長 |