| IVOD_ID |
164740 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164740 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-5 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
5 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-29T09:08:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-29T09:20:40+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3d43f2f62388da51ce4d9546767be4aed0e1721cc507f77a47ccc84a8d9a611181c04d3e6e31e3a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:08:15 - 09:20:40 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。
【10月29日及30日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
1.203 |
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3.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
好 我們麻煩人事長這邊先謝謝陳佩玉委員來 請人事長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
9.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
27.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
委員長早安我直接就開門見山的請教你是不是認同就是軍公教這些公務員是國家穩定的力量是不是我一直都是強調軍公教本來就是國家穩定那這些國家棟樑他會是國家的國安風險嗎潛在的國安風險嗎你會認為是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
35.684 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
在一個組織的範疇裡面一定會有少數是屬於風險人物所以為什麼我們在很多的機關會設政控單位來協助identify那些高風險分子好 謝謝我現在有一個問題一直以來的問題而且我非常多以前的同事都跟我反映的一個問題他們說 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
58.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
79.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
公務員是國家的棟樑但是對公務員的管制其實也是非常的嚴格他現在赴大陸前要事先取得許可回國後也限七天內要報備這對不對 這沒錯吧所以他們有一些在抱怨說他們的爸爸媽媽在大陸工作他們為了過去看他們那一樣他就覺得好像是在被拷問一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
82.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
110.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
他們很多是沒有接觸到國家安全國家任何機密資料的人但是呢他就說卻得受到很多限制那感覺好像被盯哨那我想問一下一個問題這應該很簡單解釋長期就這麼樣了就是一個不涉及機密資料的基層鑑任級的公務員他去歐洲旅遊但是呢他需要在中國大陸轉機那這時候是不是要先提出申請許可 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
112.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
133.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
目前是需要這106年開始就要所以這個很奇怪就是說今天連轉機不管是入境轉機或者是機場轉機都要申請許可所以我先強調我絕對100%支持國家安全而且我痛恨出賣我們台灣出賣國家的人 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
134.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
148.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以我支持反滲透我不像有些官員國外有家家人都住在國外如果台灣出狀況我沒有地方跑我家老小都在台灣所以台灣是我的家 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
149.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
166.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以任何洩露國防機密的任何侵害我國國家安全的我們都不可以手軟但是我們的手段也要合理正當我們不能讓政府用反滲透的這個民意然後進行前置自由的這個現實 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
168.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
186.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以剛剛人長你也認同就是說我們公務員是國家穩定的力量可是你要正視一個問題就是國家是不是過度的汙名化或是刁難或是用一些恐懼的方式去對付這些公務員請人長你要特別注意這個點 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
188.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
202.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因為法律雖然是陸委會等等其他機關他們所訂的但是制度是你們所處理的對不對一些表格啦一些申報單什麼都是你們在做的嘛所以你們不能說這個是跟你們無關好不好你們注意一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
204.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
224.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
為什麼會這麼說我待會還會再提到這段時間離職率暴增的問題因為我們講人會用腳投票其實離職率暴增的40幾%其實是對於首長你的不認同所以你一定要特別注意這個點我知道你已經很努力在為公務員但是這會不會是因為政府大環境的問題那我再提一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
226.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
252.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我認為最近一直有一個問題就是你們一直很在乎公務員有沒有去中國大陸那邊有沒有戶籍等等的但是你們卻放縱高層的行政部中立我舉個例子 我先請教一下我直接講 兩岸條例第九條公務員赴大陸要事先申請許可這個是法律規定的 所以你們也不得不做對不對按照規定就是一定要做 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
253.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.655 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
但是呢 我再提第二個這個東西是你們必須依法行政我認同 因為我國兩案條例第九條有做這樣的規定所以你們必須這麼處理我覺得這是沒問題但是啊公務員服務法第一條它也有要求要依法行政啊那你們有沒有看到現在很多高官都不依法行政我不知道你們有沒有注意到這個問題譬如說 好 我直接講譬如說卓鴻泰院長他不依法編列軍警銷的待遇跟退休金預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
283.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
309.824 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那這種人不應該嚴辦嗎所以我今天看到的就是你對出盡戶籍你釘得半死對基層公務員下手很重但是對於高層的直接違法你們都當作沒有看到那甚至像之前那個花蓮災情的時候有一個81人群組因為這是公開的訊息我就直接講他裡面有出現殺傷力訊息跟行政院秘書長張純然說跟四方處理中 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
311.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這種完全違反行政中立的事情請問一下你們有真的有去正視這個問題嗎他們沒有把我加入群組所以我比較不清楚我知道 但是不是 你不能這樣講啊那公務員違法犯罪也沒有把我加入群組我就不處理他嗎你不能講這句話啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
329.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
345.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
不過我跟委員報告一件事就是說行政院對金人待遇條例還有警察人員的人事條例這兩個規定坦白講以行政院立場他已經提出跟憲法法庭去做釋憲的動作在這個釋憲結果還沒有出來胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
350.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
哪一個法律有這樣規定的你告訴我你現在告訴我哪一個法律有規定這樣申請釋憲就可以不動作你去看憲法訴訟法憲法訴訟法這樣規定嗎你們這胡說八道我跟你講你今天在我面前我真的很尊敬你的人你今天在我面前你竟然違法的告訴全國國人這個錯誤的法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
399.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你不可以這樣做 我一直很尊重你欸我覺得你至少是個講道理的人欸憲法訴訟法 不是這樣規範的你不能這樣子講你在這邊講的每一句話都是在誤導國人欸你想 你現在是是左榮泰的鸚鵡嗎你可以這樣嗎憲法訴訟法52條你提起憲法訴訟你是不停止法律的適用欸不是說停止就停止欸左榮泰直接違法違憲欸 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
401.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
413.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
算了這不是你的事那我不要講請你不要附送行政院院長違法的論述我很討厭行政官員你是高官高官來這裡還說出違法的話就不對了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
414.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
432.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
如果你今天不想碰这件事我觉得是没有关系但你不能直接在那边告诉国人违法的事情申请释宪不会停止法律的适用所以我一直跟人家讲那我认为税捐基金法违宪我申请释宪那是我从今天开始不用缴税可以这样吗宪法诉讼法52条就说不行嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
433.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
459.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以你既然在那邊這樣子 我覺得不應該啦好 那81人群組那個 我想喔你沒有回答 你說你不在裡面 好 那就算了但是我在這邊跟您報告那個完全違反行政的中立因為那個時間點也不應該 救災的黃金旗他們也是政務官 也是領國家薪水而且殺傷力訊息 這個在一般行政文書上面不會用所以等於你們救高官的部分違法你們都不管啊 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
460.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
471.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
然後呢 基層員工基層的人去大陸你們就要管欸 那個主席 報告主席先暫停一下 我有一個會議詢問我想請教一下先暫停一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
472.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
494.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我要暫停 你都問你會怎樣我要會議詢問你要問哪一個時間我會給你 不用詢問 繼續我想請教因為我們現在公務員出國是今天的議題公務員出國要申報許可那我想請教一下那個那目前民進黨黨員去大陸要不要事先申請許可這個你就直接主席不是你那個質詢的對象 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
495.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
514.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不是不是 我說我會議詢問嘛會議詢問 你可以不回答人事長在這個地方 你就質詢就好主席 你是老立委 我們應該對於沒有那麼老啦 跟你一樣你是執政的立委我們對議事規則都很清楚其實我們委員是可以對主席提出會議詢問的沒關係 主席不方便回答學務5G 好 謝謝主席 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
519.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
539.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我這邊講很簡單啦 就我剛問主席 主席不方便回答就是民進黨黨員去大陸需不需要向民進黨先生事先許可我不知道 那主席也不方便講那但是呢 我們的公務員我回答你一下 因為你一直要我回答 我告訴你喔六都的民進黨台北市議院 連申請都不用申請因為連讓你去都不讓你去 不是啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
540.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
553.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
立法委員主席你不能歪掉我說黨員我不是說公職啦謝謝公職一定有民進黨的黨員就不是在這個地方被你質詢的對象嗎好不好你要想問我私底下來告訴你好沒關係那就這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
555.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
583.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
好啦 我的問題很簡單啦我想大家都聽得懂我的問題就只是黨員那所以我對於公務員連不涉及機密的公務員赴大陸要這樣做我是覺得很奇怪啦其實這樣做會造成行政機關對整個文官體制的不信任因為整個國家就在配合的政府在那邊做一些奇怪的事情第二個 任何法律的規定其實你要考量到它的比例原則也就是目的手段這是憲法規定的 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
583.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
611.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
那你今天他去那裡落地或去那裡他會泄密嗎如果要泄密我通訊軟體也可以泄密啊我約第三國也可以泄密啊這個時代跟二次大戰前不一樣秘密的交付他有各種各式的現代化數位傳遞的方式所以你禁止他去你能做到的只是我們讓國人更少去大陸不要了解那些狀況讓兩岸更不了解對方你做到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
611.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
628.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
目的只有這個所以這個到底意義在哪裡我認為不符合比例原則因為時間到了那剛主席也沒有讓我時間暫停我想 我就提了一下就是因為您上任到現在這最後 您上任到現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
630.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
658.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
離職率暴增了41%其實這是對於身為人事總署最高主管你的一個最大的否定所以請你要注意一下因為我們現在看到的就是高層吃乾媽淨基層沒有尊嚴感所以新人不想考進來當公務員年輕人流失光光請問一下這個制度是我們以前的觀念裡面要把一流人才帶進政府嗎所以我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
659.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
679.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
兩個月內我想麻煩你們給我一份報告在這裡就是對於賦入報備必須風險分級還有精確治理這部分麻煩你們給我報告我剛剛講了法制雖然是陸委會他們但是你們管理跟表格等等那個是你們而且這跟公務員的感覺有很大關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
680.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
704.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那最後我也請你們再研議一個東西就是違反規定可不可以一事不在理的用兩岸人民條例還有公務員懲戒法兩個都下去處罰你們注意一下這個點那我知道你一定會跟我說因為兩個法規的性質不合所以重疊這樣去處罰與法沒有違反但是我也跟你講大法官的見解已經不是這樣大官見解認為說 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
706.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
733.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你一個行為要兩個不同的法律一起處罰有可能違反醫師不在理因為如果說這個同意行為他沒有侵害到多重法益這個時候其實他不應該受到多重的處罰如果你們不清楚你可以來問我們我這邊或我們辦公室那邊跟你講不然你刑罰也下去懲處也下去這等於是違反醫師不在理的雙重處罰這部分麻煩你們能夠 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
734.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
743.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
演繹一下順便給我 不懂的你們可以問我好 謝謝吳宗憲委員這個口才越來越好但是時間就控制得比較差一點好 謝謝 |