| IVOD_ID |
164629 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164629 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-6 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
6 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-22T13:53:41+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-22T14:10:43+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:02 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da8b55e2453adad43b34f1f132b5784e0488cc85b2f3b90c227a56b3449513e4b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
劉建國 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:53:41 - 14:10:43 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、委員洪孟楷等21人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
二、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
三、委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
四、委員王育敏等16人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
五、委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
六、委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「外送平台管理暨從業人員權益保障法草案」案。
【僅詢答】） |
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謝謝主席今天排這個案非常重要那我們先請部長吧 |
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請洪部長今天很多委員就針對外送員的權益問題來質詢洪部長我想這次要訂定一個新的法律相關的權益保障也會在這個外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案中來進行討論那我也聽到部長有承諾會把行政院版本弄出來對不對 |
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但是我要定這個新法基本上要很多面向去做思考所以今天召委排這個是讓我們大家都有可以從不同的面向來提供給行政單位做最好的這樣的一個制定性的法律的依據我要從外送員的職場環境安全問題來討論這牽涉到有幾個部會我 |
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我要從外送員的職場環境安全的範圍來討論這牽涉到今天出席的那幾個單位交通部然後我們的治安署然後安全的話應該主要是這樣子數位部這樣而已嗎平台業者的登錄平台業者的登錄是誰 轄管 |
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平台業者現在因為平台的治理的全的單位是交通部行政院定平台業者的登錄是交通部登平台業者誰管的如果到現在不曉得平台業者是誰在管的那那這個法律要怎麼定呢平台業者現在整體的治理單位的主應該是目的是應該是交通部吧 |
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那還不上來嗎誒 陳氏我問你這樣你又不起來啊不然待會再提請你也真奇怪平台業者是跟交通部登記嗎平台業者平台業者現在有大概七家的業者裡頭大概有四家他平台業者是跟我們登記為汽車運輸業 |
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跟你們登記的汽車運輸業 七家 四家那三家是跟誰去登記還是他不用登記 他就是要做平台業者他就可以馬上指揮你去哪邊 去哪邊送 去哪邊送他其他是用商業登記的方式在做商業登記 那有誰管呢有人舉手了 謝謝 不錯 社長都沒有舉手你是商業發展署嘛 對不對 |
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199.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
所以就跟各位都有關係嘛應該整體來講就是說勞動部、交通部、經濟部都有關啦所以這部法律要訂定在那一個新的一個範疇裡面可能全部的部會都要坐下來好好思考我想這個院版才會定出更真完備的這樣的一個對外送員的權利的相關保障嘛因為外送員絕對跟平台有直接的關係嘛 對不對好 那我現在寫給部長看一個東西喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
200.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
223.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
不然這 對不起啦 麻煩你念這四個字好不好你看到這四個字進行機車 進行機車嘛 好道路交通管理處署條例當然是交通部管的那機車在 騎在進行機車上要花多少錢你吃辣啦 今天問你都沒什麼人知道這個事情這樣這個發生什麼事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
228.416 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
242.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
是用處罰條例的相關規定來處罰啦我知道啦 花多少錢啦多少錢喔我已經講了你還講錢可能要查一下要查一下六百塊啦好不好 我跟你講 六百六百 好不好 六百 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
244.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
269.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
600對我們不算多嘛對外送員來講是很多可能他一顛的收入就不見了600在所有處罰條例的罰款裡頭算是比較我知道啦 那就是我現在針對外送員的事情嘛對不對好 那很多人一定會納悶這個進行機車跟外送員的關係是什麼嘛跟外送員的職場環境的關係是什麼嘛 對不對甚至有人說外送員你如果不要去騎這邊就不會被罰600的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
271.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
274.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
就不會被受罰了嘛應該是這麼說嘛 對不對實際上是這樣嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
278.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
306.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我給部長看 跟次長看一個新聞嘛這個走40分 外送遠送醫院背胸太慢 還給護平有外送我們抱怨 接到龍總的訂單 北龍啦但醫院方有規定禁止騎車入內 於是徒步送餐花了快40分結果你醫護一見面就前太晚 太慢 事後還給護平大嘆 難怪沒有人要跑這個龍總的單然後也掉出相當多的這樣的苦準 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我不曉得部長次長對這事情怎麼看像平台業者派這樣的單你們怎麼看 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
319.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
340.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這確實因為等於是外送員如果接到這樣的單可能會多出蠻多的時間上面的成本所以可能會有一些外送員在如果接到這樣的單的時候他可能就會想要他不想跑這樣的單這是可以理解的對啊 他不想跑這個單但是平台業者就派他去要送這個單怎麼辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
343.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
371.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
在程序上面他們應該是可以拒單可是可以拒單可是外送員也會擔心因為他們常會擔心如果拒單的話會不會在整個演算法的機制裡面會被做一些不利以後派單的記錄對這是他們會擔心的地方如果外送員也無視這個健行機車這四個字他進去醫院就直接滑600嘛就他一天可能就不見他的相關的一些酬勞了嘛對不對然後 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
393.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
然後平台業者會合理說要起訴給這些外送員還是要讓這些外送員繼續承擔這樣的事情就你們的理解啦對 所以在這個狀況下外送員會很為難會很為難嘛好 交通部次長有沒有什麼要表達的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
424.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
還有商業發展署有關這個派送剛才講到進行機車我的了解在這裡面應該是院區的管理跟剛才特別提到在外面進行機車的管理規定是不一樣的就這樣但是如何派單讓它合理我想這個以後大概在這個平台的管理上可以來加強所以你們未來要訂這個法律的時候會不會有所規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
427.867 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
448.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
未來要訂這個新的法律要保障我們外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障我們的全名叫做外送平台管理暨從業人員的權利保障法的草案會不會把這個納入時間的關係啦不曉得等一下再回跟委員說明我們的確是會在思考假設要法治化的話那 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
450.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
应该要在条文里面更明确的去设定如果如果外送员拒单或因为这些原因拒单的话这个平台不应该给予不利的记录那用这个方式所以如果如果外送员不会因为害怕被不利的对待而能够有拒单的权利的时候那平台也必须思考或者是像 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
475.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
501.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
北榮應該去思考 或這樣子的地點去思考說怎麼樣子能夠讓這事情能夠真的比較符合多方權益的運作起來北榮已經有思考 北榮也已經有做一些調整了齁我再講一段啦齁這其實外送也不怕多走這一段路啦但是他們也會怕生財工具被拖掉部長跟次長可以看北榮周遭的環境全部都是紅線他連機車要停外面都沒有機會 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
503.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
520.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
像這樣的環境 諸如此類非常非常多 我不曉得你們有沒有掌握如果假設他們裡面有停車格那也被探病看病了 早就已經停滿了所以他們要怎麼辦這是一個樣態 兩個樣態然後再來 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
524.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
554.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我剛剛特別提到說北龍在看這則新聞之後人家他們馬上因應了他馬上設置三處的外送點讓外送人員可以入院 停車 送外送但是我剛剛講說很多 住院 百貨公司車站周遭 甚至於某大型的有一個大型社區叫什麼社區那個是網友號稱的魔王社區也有魔王社區不是七月喔是每天都有一個魔王社區然後還有類似中校西路 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
555.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
579.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
整條街整條都是健行機車如果平台業者派外送你到那個地方怎麼辦所以我要講的就是說這個我們在法律在訂的時候可能都要把它納入整個思考的範疇裡面這訂出來的法律才真的是保障從業人員也對相關的這個外送的平台的管理才會 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
580.735 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
600.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
才會得以啦 應該是這麼講好 然後我再給你看漾太山啦真的沒有最扯 只有更扯啦不是那個超扯 超扯那個全國外送產業工會指出桃園一家木瓜牛奶店地點建在這個桃園機場第二行下的二樓店家還註明外送員騎車進不來 請搭捷運 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
605.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
628.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
好 各位可以開箱一下根據全國外送產業公會計算這張可能要倒賠先不算步行的時間光捷運就需要耗費21分鐘左右至於這個平台許可店家時難道沒有經過相關的審核評估嗎這種店家根本就不應該出現在這種系統上還有另外一個是在位於中壢的服務區高速公路中壢的服務區裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
631.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
650.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以我才特別提到說平台業者到底是誰狹管的嘛誰主著的嘛那你剛跟我講七家四家你們管那三家是誰管的如果平台業者的一個主管機關到現在都還是事權不一那可能你們在管理平台業者的本身的問題就會特別多這問題又來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
653.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
675.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不能平台業者只管派單嘛 對不對然後也不顧他派單那個地點的合理性嘛這個你們要規範啊 這個你們要處理啊這個你們要管理啊法律有沒有把這個範疇放進來如果平台業者持續這個樣子平台業者必須要遭受到我們主管機關的省壓的一個處置嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
681.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
697.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
對我想委員剛才特別提到的就是說派遣的那個到那個派單的地方他是不是可以停車是不是可以可及等等的這後可能在所謂的派單系統上的時候可能要來做一些考量 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
698.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
725.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
不然我特別強調平台月子不能只管派單嘛完全不顧這個地點的這樣的一個合理性嘛對不對然後要外送人自己去承受這樣的交通違規啦還是說其他安全的隱患的風險嘛萬一有一天出事了政府機關誰要來負責這是每天在上演的事情每天都在上演現在也在上演嘛對不對所以我在提供樣態式啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
729.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
749.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個外送機車維庭比例逐年上升公會也判開放更多這個臨庭區然後交通部運營院所也認為有其必要性不過劃設屬於地方自治權限那問題來了喔你交通部說的 要啦 要設啦但是這是地方的管理啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
751.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
767.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這跟宿舍跟寶庭你檢討這件事道理一樣嘛到底是誰要管 市政府要管還是就授權給地方政府去管會不會一國二十二個字然後有些地方該就像北農趕快設置這個外送平台的這個停車的一個專屬的位置那有的縣市就不設 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
777.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
782.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我們這個火力如果定出來這些都沒有兼顧到那這個火力到底是適合哪個縣市用 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
785.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
807.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我跟委員報告一下這個其實這個議題其實不是在這裡面發生的你擴大一點來看的話其實現在有關很多的貨運業者在運送的時候也經常會面臨到適當的地方去停車來做相關的配送所以這一部分的交通部其實在這應該是在最近幾年大概都已經有在請各也就是這裡講到因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
808.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
833.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
很多的交通管理事項的劃設等等是在地方所以大概都是跟地方政府大家共同來討論希望地方政府能夠去劃設相關的一個停等區或是黃線的部分開放紅線讓黃線可以去臨時停車這個大概都是持續在檢討中那這一部分如果以後在做外送員管理的時候我們大概也會就這一部分來特別加以注意 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
833.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
856.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你們這幾年有討論嘛 但是這幾年這些事情持續不斷的在發生嘛剛剛你有講的有幾個像宅便啊什麼 放進來 持續喔所以我們可以發現現在很多的縣市大概都有劃設這種貨運的停等區啊 或是等等的都有這樣 類似像剛才你講的那個對 所以有些縣市有劃嘛 等於就是有些縣市還沒有劃嘛你們討論這幾年之後還是一國多治嘛 這也是事實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
857.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
880.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個我們再來要求你們要求是要到什麼時候才可以中華民國針對這種外送員還有相關你所提到的宅便等等等這些運送業有一個依照法律事實規範劃設出來的這樣的一個卸貨區還是送貨區還是一個停等區要多久時間嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
882.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
895.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個因為還是一樣啦因為要跟地方政府大家共同來討論但是我們會來我知道你要跟地方政府來討論但是就討論很久了啊我們會在相關的會議裡頭來做要求或者是相關的這個場合上來跟地方政府共同來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
897.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
924.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
因為這個是不可能說我時間到了因為我們現在就要訂這個新華嘛對不對然後我們回歸到頭來先講外送員的相關的這樣權利問題的情況之下你這些一併要考慮進去啦你考慮進去的時候如果你又複製過去的那個貨運的還是宅便的情況之下好像之前事情處理不好延伸到現在訂了新的法律一樣還是處理不好啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
926.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
947.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
還是會這樣發生啊 還是會一國多治啊我今天來只是要提醒這樣的事情那你們應該明確跟我講說 你跟勞動部跟我們經濟部可以一個月內針對這樣的事情我們有一套很完整的制度 到時候會入華會真正的來保障這些外送員的相關的一些權利啊應該是這樣才對嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
948.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
960.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
委員剛才所提到的這些需要在法令面來加以補強或是加以規定的部分剛才部長在有特別提到而後專法的時候他會 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
961.392 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
979.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
會整個 我想我們會有相關的一個要求專法裡面還是一定有你交通部所佔的比重啦這是跑不掉的啦 一看就是很清楚嘛我們會把這樣的委員剛才提到的需要考慮的事項在這專法裡頭來予以規範 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
980.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
993.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我是真的不要每天都好像這個外送員還是這個用路人還是還是相關的這些業別好像大家都在拚運氣 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1011.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1016.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
能不能討論出更真完備的這樣相關的一些規範跟保障好不好 可以吧好 謝謝謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長 |