| IVOD_ID |
164510 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164510 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-22 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-22T09:56:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-22T10:10:26+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:48 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/615807a88c5be4da6523079a0a206b92e29853ba2d60c06d83c966d97180d5d24d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
郭國文 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:56:38 - 10:10:26 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-22T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處、財政部就「中央對直轄市及縣（市）政府補助辦法修正後，一般性補助款審查與評比基準、財務計畫檢核基礎、撥款方式等規範及作業程序為何？修改財力級次計算公式之合理性及對各縣市補助款影響為何？計畫型補助款範圍與業務定義？對各縣市未來整體財政補助金額之影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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主席有請主席長跟阮市長請陳主席長還有阮市長 阮市長委員好主席長我們最近都在談財政收支方法的分配問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
22.405 |
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大概都停留在過去的印象當中以為地方的財政非常的不好確實在整個歷史上整個地方的財政曾經發現過說地方補助款相對比較嚴苛負債比率也相對比較高如果從過往的短促的情形中101年的部分還短促到高達589億 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
45.856 |
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54.983 |
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可是隨著我們下放的財政資源越來越多的情況底下到2013年的時候已經變成是剩餘818億而這來與去之間加總起來總共有1407億的差別 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
62.267 |
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77.236 |
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那這裡頭還是可以看到相關的數字那之所以中央可以挹注那麼多主要是國稅成長國稅成長了191%可是相對地方稅來說25年來大概只有成長大約28%三成不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
78.337 |
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96.511 |
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那即便我們授權給他地方稅法通則的情況底下新的稅源也相對有限所以幾乎都是依賴中央在自有財源不足的情況底下那曾經還有一度你去看一看我們曾經還有一度不只這一個那個整個當初的財政這個赤字之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
97.171 |
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124.558 |
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還有包括當初為了解決地方的負債的問題因為以前常常發布所謂的地方財政警戒中最近幾乎這個中都沒有在想了為什麼沒有在想原來把這個信用卡額度原來叫提高總數增加的2%之多有一點是下放給地方的對不對下放給地方從8%變9.4%也就是一年可以增加800多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
125.798 |
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147.079 |
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原來以為這個信用卡增加之後以地方政府以前的那個習慣可能會刷爆但是事實上沒有刷爆它不但沒有刷爆而且這個負債還降低所有的這個比例那個債務中的比例越來越減少而且從原來的負債總比的5.56降到2.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
150.602 |
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177.46 |
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金額也降了大約是超過2000億之多負債輕度的縣市低於60%以下的從8個縣市增加到20個縣市目前比較嚴重的就只有苗栗跟宜蘭而已所以這種情況底下地方的財政不用從負債的角度來看或者從剩餘的數字來看基本上已經大幅改善了 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
180.962 |
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201.236 |
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部長 主席長主要是經濟好轉跟中央下放很多資源那如果說我們整個財政收支方法明年新版的開始之後地方已經這麼剩餘已經這麼多了將來如何使用那以及須不需要擬定計畫申請還是自由讓它發揮 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
202.737 |
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226.762 |
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所以這個部分因為我們本身除了統籌分配稅款4165下放之外所以他佔了114年幾乎達到9成然後他又指定那個一般性補助款要維持2501所以兩個加起來就將近15%下放但是事前並沒有下放那事前的部分有一部分其實以前是承接省政府原來11% |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
228.762 |
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254.014 |
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但是這個部分都必須要透過修法才有辦法來下放事前沒有下放的情況底下那以往嘛 政府實在是補助每年大概補助五千億嘛如果明年的新版的話你有沒有算過 本席稍微算了一下中央給地方的財源會高達一兆一千六百五十億之多讓他自由揮霍那中央政府不是變成一個代收代付的機構嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
255.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
281.737 |
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所以我们要把它转换一个形态就是说它用计划型来引导引导地方走向这方面用什么方式引导用计划型的一个计划来做引导所以说它这也不是纯粹的代收代付还会有一个计划型的引导是 所以一般性补助我们着重在一般性补助要计划型引导经常性的或者是比较普及性的然后基本建设的 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
281.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
289.852 |
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那计划型补助也是有引导但是计划型比较大型的比较重大的那统筹分配款有办法吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
290.983 |
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311.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
統籌分配款這個部分也是有所以現在新的財劃法裡面他有對基本支出他有圖像去列出來然後第二個他把他的財政收支差短把它列在統籌分配稅裡面然後直接來解決而不是透過一般性補助來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
312.857 |
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326.231 |
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是 我是說你如果一個計畫性的引導不至於錢亂花否則的話依照現在事權的一個限制人員編制沒有增加他到時候就是變成發紅包比賽 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
328.693 |
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353.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我是覺得主委長我建議你事先要有一個計畫性引導事後呢我們應該要有一個類似地方財政警戒中的概念警戒中的概念不是以前的負債多少把它呈現出來而是有哪些縣市過度自由發揮以至於有違反財政治理之餘主計總署跟審計部應該要有事後的一個規範這個有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
355.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
371.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以這個部分跟委員報告新的財務法裡面就針對這個有著所在設計所以他有一個一般性的一個基本財政支出的項目然後有一個收入之後他兩個如果有財政支出的差短透過統總分配稅來彌補 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.108 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
400.868 |
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對 主席長我現在要跟您說的是說把地方過去的警戒中的概念不是只有數字而已而接下來它是怎麼使用做一個調整做必要的做事後一個公佈啦為什麼為什麼因為地方政府都要連任嘛對啊你如果亂花錢亂花紅包子為了選票要接受社會的監督啊你拿了這麼多錢拿了一兆一千多億你同不同意本席把這個事後的一個這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
403.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
423.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
審計的概念把它公佈弄一個方式來做一個規範事前計畫引導嘛那如果它不照你計畫呢對不對 可不可以我們現在國防會已經就針對各縣市的和中央的一個事前在整個重新再做檢討那是另外啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
424 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
436.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然后检讨之后呢他会变成是说以考核或督导的方式来让他进行我意思说考核跟督导之后不够不要把他评审内部作业必要的时候公开啦可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
436.983 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
451.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
可以吧 也會公開應該要公開另外一個部分你看你整個這個補助款增加的這個結構上面擠壓到什麼擠壓到計劃型補助你明年的計劃型補助剩下308億 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
454.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
482.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對不對本來2954現在當到308少了2646那像這種情況底下所有今天最近財政部昨天有討論了大概從一個橫向的配置的部分大家都放在平衡的部分已經剩下八個指標對不對但是現階段所有的這個狀況已經減少那你要怎麼調劑營需你是不是要舉債 明年 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
484.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
509.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
已經舉債四千億了我們目前舉債是四千億 連同特別預算一千零八億的話是四千億總預算是三千億你舉債也是舉現在特別預算有計劃型的補助就剩下三百零八億嗎對 現在是我們有一個財政均衡的一個項目我們對於九個縣市它現在低於一百一十四年度我們會給予補助 只增不減 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
510.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
531.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你现在来了 问题来了现在呢308你很难调剂延续这是第一个问题第二个你刚刚一直讲事权的部分事权的部分你现在说国务发会有在做处理那有要提出类似像地方制度法其他相关的法来重新规划事权的那个分工吗有没有这个部分有没有修法的打算 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
531.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
552.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
这个部分其实我一般性补助包括计划性补助都是属于地方印办的事项只是我中央补助而已所以这个部分有一些项目如果回归给地方来办理然后由他的统筹分配税款来资印这个部分就回归真正回归地方自治的一个方向 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
553.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
575.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
對 回歸如果能夠回歸地方制度就回歸啦但是以照目前為止市權能需要調整嘛妳不是一直強調嗎對啊 那市權調整有沒有牽扯到修法的部分那有牽扯到修法有沒有打算要修法有沒有打算要修法像我們財發法要年底要提出來啊你市權的一個重新劃分也要面對啊什麼時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
577.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
591.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我們事權的一個修法的部分這個涉及到譬如說有一些作用法譬如說內政部的還有一些衛福部的一些相關的勞健保這些等等那這些誰在統籌是國發會在統籌那統籌的情況底下有沒有一個時間點錢都已經要發下去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
595.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
617.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
它会搭配它整个近日我们一直都很今年年底可以提出修法吗这个部还是必须要尊重国化会它的一个你要督促嘛在它主机的部分你要去思考这个问题嘛财政部都已经要提出修法了这个部分是副院长亲自在督导所以这个部分应该要同步进行副院长很忙又要讨论这个关税的谈判 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
618.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
647.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
本身自己在親自督導對 所以說這個應該要有時間點要match嘛 對不對要同步嘛 應該嘛應該要年底提出來嘛而更何況我還要問一下阮次主席長稍微休息一下阮次 你們昨天提了一個橫向那最深水區的部分權重的部分還沒處理那是不是代表還要再開一次會還是權重的部分就中央自行決定因為那一部分的確各地方政府因為涉及到它分配的金額的大小所以那一部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
647.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
675.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
會很難達到共識很難達到共識那怎麼辦啊但是我們會盡量用最公平合理的方式就是由中央自行判斷年底前完成這是一個方式會設計一個方式然後年底前送法案過來但是我們也不放棄溝通的機會不放同時溝通同時擬定一個方式出來權重你自己要拿出一個版本中央還是要負責嘛談不攏你就是要中央自己做決定嘛不然你年底的版本怎麼出來這是第一第二的部分你要面對國民黨的版本現在已經近負二讀了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
677.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
704.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你等到年底的時候他熊熊給你送去 再表決一次那你來得及嗎 你有算過嗎你有去溝通嗎你有去溝通嗎剛才委員也指教就是說我們就是有關於四選的盤對 我現在跟你在談修法啦如果修法它又如法炮製的時候你應該去跟國民黨黨長溝通一下因為畢竟他們現在多數嘛是不是能夠有 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
705.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
727.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
大家共同討論他現在進步熱度耶連委員會都沒有辦法討論耶但是我們現在前提就要先有一個修法案對 你現在一個版本但是你就今天要講說請他stand by一下不要這麼急那以前我們有提出法案反人欺那現在我們已經提出法案了可是他又不等你會不會造成這種結果有沒有可能 你有沒有評估過啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
729.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
747.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這是一個政治現實耶對 這個是沒有錯但是在溝通之前我們總是有自己的版本出來嘛這樣才能夠有一個聚焦才能夠溝通嘛不好意思 主席你再給我一分鐘就好我最後再問一下主計長你這個一定要去溝通啊阮次 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
748.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
769.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你要去沟通好不好另外一个部分那个现阶段整个整个这个计划型补助再加上所谓的这个统筹分配款一增一减或一减一增的情况底下有些县市在统筹分配款喝到汤但是在计划型补助的时候少了肉总共有几个县市有九个县市 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
771.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
798.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
主席長 你看剩下這九個縣市當中你所剩不多308億的這個計畫性補助是不是應該把這幾個縣市為優先是 我們這一個部分會列為優先所以我們就是說跟114年度比較 只增不減所以它一定是維持住114年度的一個額度所以這個部分的缺少的一個部分我們會用均衡補助的部分來給米品 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
798.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
如果盡量還是要有調計營需的功能的情況底下308還是非常有限妳有沒有可能再舉借所以我們有沒有可能再舉債啊應該不用這個部分我們大概是有把它算一下它的一個差短的數以這邊為優先我們是在等說以九個縣市為優先六都當中唯一受害的就是台南麻煩你注意一下謝謝主席長 謝謝阮次謝謝主席好 謝謝郭國文委員 |