| IVOD_ID |
164224 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164224 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T13:22:03+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T13:33:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db6dddf02a89d9bd32dbc2e7a8918bc9e770febda90f1cdde82c5430e83854d74935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
洪孟楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:22:03 - 13:33:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：壹、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
貳、審查一、行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二、委員廖先翔等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。三、委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案。四、委員李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。五、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案。六、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。七、委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文修正草案」案。八、委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。九、委員李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十、委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十一、委員翁曉玲等23人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。十二、委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十三、委員劉建國等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十四、委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案。十五、委員沈發惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十七、委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十八、委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。十九、委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案。二十、委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。二十一、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案。
【第二十一案，如經復議則不予審查】
【綜合詢答】） |
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好 主席謝謝 麻煩請洪森漢部長好 請洪部長洪委員好部長好 部長我想今天感謝召委這邊排這個專報告那其實最主要還是一樣這個空服員的一個事件 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
25.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
47.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
那这个汉事大家都不希望发生但是既然发生了我们就一定要好好来追究一下我先请教一下有没有注意到违反劳动事业单位的查询系统里面长龙航空也就是这一次的这个事件里面的空服员的一个业主他过去三年里面都被我们这边有做连续的一些开罚 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
48.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
76.574 |
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他的開罰金額今年累計四次罰還已經到265萬是不是詳細的數但確實罰的比數不算少是我們國家裡面的幾個航空裡面不管是中華航空新宇航空虎航或者是相關長榮航空等等是不是長榮航空的比例最高就今年來說長榮應該是比較多的好那前三年呢這三年 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
79.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
100.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
這幾年加起來長榮都是比較高也是嘛所以說換言之從過去到現在我們現在討論這一家公司他算不算是累犯算不算是一個慣犯累犯應該算是比例來講嘛也就只有這幾家航空公司嘛是不是但是我的意思說其他航空公司也不一定就非常好 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
102.376 |
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127.392 |
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所以這根本是問題部長非常好你用這樣子一個那麼幽默的態度但是一條人命發生了不好笑我沒有我沒有我現在要講的其實是我現在要講的其實是如果說你是身為勞工朋友的主管機關你要究責的是這個事業單位的話那如果說過去三年都已經有看到這家公司持續有被相關 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
129.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
151.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我們違反勞動法令的查詢系統裡面其中延長工時超過法定規定8次的遭罰高達295萬那是不是應該就要被列為一個警訊當然列為一個黑名單或說列為一個重點稽查的事業當然是那我們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
153.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
177.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
來再來如果說這一個公司他沒有辦法提供友善的職場甚至危害生命的時候是不是意味公司的管理方式應該要檢討當然好有沒有看到因為現在傳出說長榮航空的績效考核評比礦值一天扣4分試病假一天扣1分遲到早退扣0.5分甚至還有 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
177.947 |
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200.769 |
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旺旺日包括說跨年農曆春節等缺勤者一天扣3分我先說如果說是這個礦值等等的那可能這個扣分相對來講大家覺得有道理但是我請市價或請併價也要被扣分你覺得這職場的潛規則不長知情嗎有沒有掌握我們有看到這樣的訊息是那 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
201.943 |
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210.761 |
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病假也好 試假也好我員工請了病假 請了試假然後還要被額外的挑出來扣分還要被額外挑出來救責部長認為合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
214.104 |
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我們當然認為 如果勞工已經明確就是生病那他一定是生病才請病假嘛 讓我說完嘛如果勞工確定是生病 但是還是被這個要求或者是各種方式要硬撐著不休息 我覺得這當然這個不應該被 我認為不應該被制度性的鼓勵這種狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
239.967 |
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263.257 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
部長 部長 部長 釐清一下我現在講的是說我剛剛也提到了就是這個我們是因為我不在長榮公司服務過所以我也不知道說有這樣的潛規則但是我們一直都有聽說有些特殊行業有特殊的潛規則那現在傳出來長榮這家公司它的績效考核評比就把請病假 請試假都列入績效考核評比來扣分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
264.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
291.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那您剛有提到是說我還要員工還要自己證明真的有病我才能請病假這我覺得已經偏離了我們當初設計說有病假的這個請假的一個標準那再者是我現在要請教的是說公司能不能主張說我員工請病假我額外的扣分或是說我額外把你列為是考機評比的評比範圍我們當然不希望這樣不希望還是不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
292.509 |
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317.162 |
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你是勞動部主管機關耶現在這在法規上面法規上面規範可不可以因為這邊涉及的是勞工我們現在病假其實在勞動基準法裡面的天數其實可以長達到兩年或者是依照他的相關的請假的部分那勞工請假規則也明確規定事業單位他要自訂請假的程序那至於 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
318.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
341.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個請假相關造成雇主在管理上面有一些的措施到底是不是不利對待那這個部分其實我們勞動部這邊後續會針對請假的類型然後相關攜帶會管理的手段他是不是合理合情合法這部分我們會邀請各方再來討論所以過去到現在都沒有所謂的不利對待的樣態跟明確規定嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
343.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
361.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後還有就是說現在我們點出來我們現在點出來如果說他連請一天病假一年365天我連請一天病假我都要被扣一分你覺得這合理嗎我自己是覺得這當然不合理啊是啊完全不合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
363.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
374.341 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那 所以部長 我很訝異耶我很訝異 我已經排到第二四位質詢了結果我質詢這些問題你到現在還沒有辦法有一個明確的回覆耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
375.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
399.813 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那代表是什麼代表是在這件事情上面第一我准我受訪的時候我就講了就是說會不會有很多我當然都希望我們的僱主勞工都站在天平的兩邊大家都是互相尊重但是如果說有一個行業裡面有潛規則讓人害怕請病假害怕叫救護車害怕求助這不是工作這是集體霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
401.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
410.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那如果說是集體霸凌的話我們身為勞工的主管機關勞動部就應該要站出來當勞工的靠山當然我現在在講的是說如果說今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
412.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
長榮航空他確實有所謂我們去做調查了解他有沒有說真的讓員工請一天病假都要扣分影響到他年底的一個考積有沒有跟委員說明大概在整體的調查上面我們還在做更多的訪談那我們大概是這應該不難吧對我們大概是在應該是這兩個禮拜內我們會去跟相關的機組員在做訪談 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
438.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
464.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
兩個禮拜內會不會太久其實說實在話因為其實有些機組員不一定都在台灣不是 我今天部長你好像還沒有釐清到問題的核心我覺得不只是這個機組員他應該是一個整體的公司的智慧所以我現在從一個個案這一個個案要去做認定我尊重相關的單位因為現在我知道說地方政府也好我們的這個中央部會也都已經有在調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
464.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
486.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
但我現在再拉到更高一個層次就是說幾個公司裡面有沒有這個行業的潛規則我怕請市價怕請病價因為請市價請病價會被扣分市價病價本來就不應該有這樣的一個規定我們就是認為勞工生病卻硬撐的這件事情不該被制度性的鼓勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
487.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
513.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
是嘛 所以我現在才是說你要釐清這件事情剛剛是市長講的嘛 剛剛是市長回覆市長你回覆市長是說有怕很極端的樣態譬如說我病假可以請兩年會不會有人刻意的來擺爛然後請兩年所以說造成說公司管理不利但是我現在把這一些極端的案例給撇開而市長是說如果說一個行業連請365天連請一天病假都要被扣分的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
513.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
533.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
基本上他不只是不利待遇啊他根本就是集體霸凌所以現在才要釐清說到底有沒有行業有這樣子的一個潛規則有沒有這樣子的一個暗黑條款而我們要做的就應該是要用法令明文規定保障嚇阻這種暗黑條款嚇阻這種潛規則嘛不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
556.791 |
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什麼時候可以讓國人更清楚明白了解這也才是這一個行業裡面為什麼會讓大家詬病的一個地方跟我說明我們其實也做了一些檢討比方說就拿全勤獎金的部分來說的話我們就是認為這個勞工請病假不應該請一兩天病假就被沒收整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
558.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
584.407 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
整個月的這個全勤獎金全勤獎金變成是一種來去嚇阻勞工請病假的一些手段所以就全勤獎這部分我們其實會用一些制度性的方法希望來做更多的保障這部分就是我們的我比較直接講一下關於其他的航空公司包括中華航空長榮航空我們國內的航空公司新宇航空針對他們的績效平和標準 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
586.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
602.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
應該要做檢討把不合理的績效平和標準要求公司拿掉我想這是如果說他明明這些績效平和標準都已經是違法的不容許他持續用這種違法手段來去要求他的老公吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
603.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
跟文說明第一個在勞動法規的部分我們來處理但是你如果涉及到他一些管理的目標跟績效的部分我想這部分我們會來跟民航局這邊來討論也希望交通部這邊民航局這邊也我們一起合作那有一些跨部會的手段來去改變現在我們看到航空業這一種請假的制度包括他們的文化這部分我們會跟民航局這邊一起來做 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
634.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
什麼時候可以讓本席以及讓國人可以知道更進一步的消息 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
636.516 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
662.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
就這個個案的調查我們剛才是承諾是兩個禮拜希望有更進一步的這個訪談跟調查的結果那就整體的剛才講說制度面的話我覺得我們會來一步一步的來進行那確實他可能會需要一些過程然後我們也在做一些檢視因為請病假的樣態其實蠻多的被認知為不利對待的樣態其實也蠻多的那你要什麼時候明定出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
663.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
686.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我想召委已经站起来了所以说我尊重召委但我要求的是劳动部今天应该要让我们国人知道是说你什么时候可以明定所谓的不利样态以及针对这个个别公司有这种恶意的绩效平和标准是违法的情况什么时候可以处理跟检讨两个月内两个月内对好本期会持续对这个议题 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
687.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
701.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
部長兩個月內找民航局相關單位開會找三大公司幾家這個航空公司業者一起共同開會我們不是兩個月我這禮拜就要找民航局開會好但是兩個月內把這相關的部分提出來好不好謝謝 |