| IVOD_ID |
164118 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164118 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-35-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
35 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
外交及國防委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T10:17:30+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T10:28:28+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:10:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db67e79c65403f7ed5cb030ba4996051aeafda6f2d8e3477dae8561d87bf4e94c8c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
王定宇 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:17:30 - 10:28:28 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝主席 麻煩蔡局長有請蔡局長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
8.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
32.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好 謝謝主席 王委員早好 局長時間寶貴我幾件跟我們攸關國安還有相關的應處要就教於你那其他相關單位如果有需要補充說明的就可以自己上來我就不用再請第一個我們都知道最近中國其實連續三波公佈我方不管是資通電軍 軍情局或者是我們政戰局的新戰相關人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
33.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
54.966 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那這樣子的目的你剛已經說明過我們就不再贅述那當然對國內中國的長臂管轄對台灣是無效的他的法律不及於我們國家的國內那他們做這個事情的荒謬在哪裡呢這就像幫派堂口發佈通緝警政署長一樣荒謬就是我們的國軍是在防衛我們的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
56.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
85.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
做的是讓我們台灣納稅人值得尊敬的事情然後在軍事威脅台灣的人來發布這些名字內容當然我們就說這內容資料未必正確我們也不用幫他去核實幫他校正但這種荒謬的行為我剛才講的就像幫派他發布一個通緝令通緝張榮鑫這不僅荒謬這有很多該應處的事情所以本席今天要問的是具體的因應 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
114.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
第一個 他公布這個之後對於我們相關人員會有什麼樣的影響不管軍情局 資通電軍 或者星戰大隊未來可能還有所以各位將領擔任主管要注意一個情形我這邊有具體的個案其實這個案我已經進行了解相關的相當的時間我隱匿掉相關的個資竟然有相關我們在我們機敏單位服役的人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
128.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
離退之後要辦理保險要辦理貸款被以中國有發布這樣的通緝當理由拒絕核貸 局長你知道這情形嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
130.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
149.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
對 有聽到這樣的狀況 也有跟我們相關國防部 電壓局 還有剛剛警政署長我們有討論了一下那初步的判斷 可能並沒有在洗錢房制上有正式的這樣的 或警政的通報沒有正式這樣的通報這兩個銀行是公股銀行 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
150.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
173.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
他們只是根據媒體報導 哎呀我們某個單位的人被發布了那個身份證號碼都有在上面嘛 被發布了結果呢 有類似的人去辦理房貸有一個是去辦理保險要更名結果竟然他說 你不行喔 你有涉嫌犯罪竟然用中共點名的資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
174.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
202.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我們的公營航庫在執行他們的制裁這開什麼玩笑啊這因為這個東西我已經進行了相當時間那公股的航庫有這樣的情形其實已經不是要疏忽了根本是連一點國家意識安全意識都沒有各位這個擔任主管管的人可以想像一下你下面帶的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
203.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
218.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
被中共發布名字結果他跑去辦貸款的時候說因為你被中國點名我不能貸給你所以局長這要怎麼辦我想大概幾個部分第一個我剛剛第一部分跟委員說明的是從那個洗錢房子或警政的通報並沒有這樣的一個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
220.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
248.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
也就是說去通報到說你看我下面第二格寫的因為這些銀行都會現在AI跟Google太方便了他就一Google哎呀 蔡明彥被中國點名制裁我不能貸款給你你怎麼辦好 那第二個部分我要說明的是針對這個個案我們會來了解是不是像委員所說明的這個狀況還是有其他的原因而導致了他在申辦貸款過程當中遭到一些問題這是個案的部分第三個部分 通案的部分那我會後會跟金管會這邊來了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
250.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
271.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這不允許喔銀行如果做這樣的事情我甚至主張我們的銀行要處分喔是 沒有錯 這我們會確實來了解這絕對不允許是不是有這樣的一個通案或類案那假如有這樣的狀況的話我們會請金管會這邊絕對的來現在台數太慢了喔我已經反映給你們相關單位幾個月了幾個月了我自己開過三次會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
273.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
我一開始舉那個荒謬的例子黑幫通緝張榮鑫就張榮鑫去銀行貸款說不行喔你被通緝我們不能貸款給你這樣子的行庫在幹嘛他是掛五星旗的嗎我們來瞭解然後再來我們針對中國這樣的樣態我們有沒有跟友盟進行溝通為什麼要跟友盟進行溝通友盟的態度有多重要呢中國是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
302.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
307.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
Interpol國際行政組織的會員國我國不是他如果把這些名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
309.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
333.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
放進了國際行政組織的黃色名單 紅色名單我們這些相關人員在國際的遷徙 旅遊 進出第一個 會不會遇到問題第二個 風險的評估跟因應他們去到所謂的高風險國家也就是為北京馬首是瞻的國家有沒有被逮捕遞解的風險局長你們有沒有處理這一塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.938 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
358.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
對 這塊事實上應該由葉館來回答啦但是就我所知的來跟委員做個說明事實上在有這樣的一個名單公布之後因為我沒有辦法來證實他是不是我們國軍的人我沒有辦法證實萬一真的有的話那事實上國防部是有個機制的他們會跟每一個萬一啦 真的有的話每一個個人來了解他們目前在名單招...我有兩種情形嘛第一種情形是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
372.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
他到一個我們覺得還不錯的自由民主國家去旅遊就因為他被放在國際刑警組織資料庫裡面被查扣下來了這是一種還有一種他去了對中國相當友好對我們不友善的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
373.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
400.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
被抓起來了我不希望到那一刻這兩種情形發生之後我們才有所謂的營救行動而是事前做好兩件事情跟有盟國家跟國際行政組織做好溝通避免發生第二個做好風險的評估告訴相關他們也許因為中國公布的名單不一定正確但我們確實有這些從業人員讓他們知道說哪幾國不要去喔去了你有可能有什麼風險你們有沒有做這樣的處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
402.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
420.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這部分應該國防部這邊 萬一真的有這樣的名單的對象的話那他有一個機制 在提醒一些相關的事項第三個 國內的處理 除了該講銀行那個荒謬情形以外國內如果幫忙蒐集名單 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
422.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
444.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
幫忙公布說 這些是他所認同的祖國發布的名單大家看到幫忙標註 幫忙登錄 幫忙標註他的地點 外貌 行貌如果國內有人做這樣的協作者 附和者甚至於幫忙分享公布這樣的資料 有沒有違法當然 這會違反反滲透法跟國安法 都有違反目前有沒有這樣樣態 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
446.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
465.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
呃 有涉及到個案的部分我想我沒有辦法在這邊跟委員做說沒有 我沒有講個案有沒有這樣的樣態 有沒有在插足我們有在注意 要有這樣的嚇阻啊對 我們有在注意所以有這樣的樣態 我們有在偵辦中也就是 去分享說這個這些是自動電軍的哈大家看到他把他標註出來喔 兄弟啊 我等你 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
468.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
494.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
對於元首對我們國家的國軍都不能夠做這樣的事情該偵辦要偵辦所以目前有這樣的案情正在你們在處理當中相關的狀況事實上剛剛羅委員也特別有提到就是有沒有一些相關的資訊的收集那這些資訊的收集之後還會流漏到對岸去那這部分的一個資訊的流通或有沒有相關金流的流通我們都有在處理對這種的附和者協作者 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
495.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
510.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
如果他不是罵髒話要辦的話其實有辦到要立即揭露出來去嚇阻這樣子的犯罪可以了解委員的關切啦但假如是真的在查辦過程當中因為他還是有刑事訴訟法的規範還是要按照證據法條但是對於這一種 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
514.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
534.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
把叛國當作進出便利商店一樣方便的人其實我們國家要有一定的安全嚇阻力量大概都是在檢方起訴之後會把案情來做一些收整另外有一題我來不及問了時間關係我提出來我下次我希望有完整的報告我們常常在相關的機敏我們的業務報告或者是公開報告裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
536.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
目前我們有看到比較詳時評估俄羅斯俄軍在中共侵台的角色四個角色原來我們的評估他都是牽制性的角色兩線牽制在歐洲發動事情讓美國相關的友盟調派產生困難其他還有一種是參與的角色軍備提供的角色還有一個是情報分享的角色我有一個表格 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
562.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
584.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我這個表格請你注意在C1 N3 N4 N5這幾個地方不管是宮古海峽 巴士海峽或者是台海周邊或菲律賓的北側其實這些地方都有俄羅斯的軍艦跟軍機參與或出現而在他那個位置 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
585.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
600.599 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
未來中共發起侵略台灣的戰爭的時候俄羅斯軍隊的直接角色是什麼我目前沒有看到國防部我也沒有看到我們國安局有相關評估未來我希望看到這一部分你們能夠有相關的報告可以給本委員會 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
602.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
625.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
簡單一句話的說明就這部分事實上不只是台灣關注我們周邊的有門國家都非常的關注那對於中俄的一些軍事演習或協同的活動那他的一個活動的一個狀況演習的科目我們都有掌握那也會針對這些活動狀況跟演習科目對區域跟台海意涵也都有一些情緒的交換我這兩個題目我希望在你們可以的時間內提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
626.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
653.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
報告有關對於中國對台灣這樣子的相關的國軍 機敏人員所做的動作我們在風險評估協助應處相關的報告給本級跟本委會那該機密提供的你就機密提供另外俄羅斯的我講的是直接角色軍隊的直接角色 牽制角色情報共享角色 軍備角色對台灣安全的危險這一個部分也希望能夠有一份可以讓我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
653.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
657.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好 報告部分我們會盡速來完成那假如有機密的部分我們跟委員面報好 謝謝 |