| IVOD_ID |
164106 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164106 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-20-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-15T09:53:08+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-15T10:04:30+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:22 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d759c3dbefb57db66e7d04b0732b37ce97bc26f8a2da1058fda6f2d8e3477dae65024ebfa9e6d7965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
郭國文 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:53:08 - 10:04:30 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、審計部陳審計長瑞敏率所屬單位主管列席業務報告，並備質詢。
【10月13日、15日及16日三天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
8.251 |
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謝謝主席 有請主計長跟沈計長我們請陳沈計長 陳主計長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
18.715 |
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委員好兩位好我想今天問的問題跟兩位都直接相關可以的話就自由搏擊可以不用依序而來來第一個在總統其實在國慶的談話當中特別講了一句話讓人滿有感就是好的數字要變成好的生活才會有感但是好的生活要有感其實要落實在政策當中本席看一看其實兩位是關鍵的一個角色 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.636 |
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56.579 |
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你要如何讓人民有感第一個就是說你從數據來看那個從各種數據來看台灣目前幾乎是屬於史上最富有的一個年代 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.779 |
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77.142 |
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但是你看相關的數字最高20%的部分成長將近4倍人均的部分成長3.67倍平均薪資的部分成長2.27倍股市總值成長26.51倍但是最低20%的家庭財富minus 1%兩位你會不會覺得很有感經濟學所說的下盛的可能性幾乎在這個數字當中看不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.912 |
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116.592 |
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所以這裡頭過去這30年來相關的數字又增加這麼多政府不是沒有作為政府的作為在哪裡減稅 壽星階級 中產階級基本工資 勞工階級但是偏偏這一群人在社會安全網的網絡當中都沒有存在的他必須透過社會救助的體系而本溪在這次救災的過程當中非常的有感 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.772 |
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143.942 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
有感覺說這個基層是增了很多社會邊緣戶增加很多所以說真正要強化任性的部分在社會安全網之外的部分的社會救助反而是非常重要我不曉得兩位有沒有去了解過到底台灣目前有多少的窮人貧窮性的定義在哪裡我現在隨便抓一下最近媒體報導韓國需要救助的下流老人高達40% |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.763 |
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150.588 |
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OECD當中最高 連日本就20可是台灣這個部分都沒有統計兩位長官 是不是要面對一下這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
157.677 |
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183.866 |
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我們對這個漢委員的想法有同感我們發現福利政策綱領這個貧窮線這個問題十幾年沒有修我們一直通知他通知衛福部要去檢討他衛福部我們還是在因為現在的熱術通知不要推給衛福部的感覺因為這個是要修福利政策綱領 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
185.006 |
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195.539 |
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那要去面對這個問題嘛那個主委長 衛福部你也可以有機會跟他說啊你去看 我讓你看一下數字整個低收入戶的這個數字啊年年減少 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
197.745 |
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222.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
从1.46到1.13我都很怀疑主计长是不是要控管这个金流有关系控管预算有关系你去看整个台湾的这个贫穷率只有1.5%只有1.5%欧洲德国的部分有16.7%法国有14.2%瑞典有15%美国相当于11%我们才是人家的1%而已很难有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
223.59 |
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251.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我也不相信嘛這定義的問題嘛你如果去參照國外的經驗一般而言從社會安全網絡的角度最基礎的部分大概人口數的10%大概10%而我們低收入戶占人口數的只有1.13%而已加中低收入只有2.26%總共有50幾萬如果從整個最低最低的資產剛剛講的那20%30年來薪資沒有變而且又縮水的部分至少500萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
252.759 |
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269.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
也對他人口數大概是10%我已經講這麼多主席長妳該發揮一下了吧是 這個部分我也在跟委員報告就是有相對的貧窮率這個我們算了大概是7.57那當然因為像美國他是比較多是18.1日本是15.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.36 |
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298.769 |
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南韩是14.9%这所谓的相对的贫穷率但是我们一般我们都是就20%和最低20%和最高20%之间的一个差异我们倍数我们都譬如说我们个人是维持在3.92%然后家庭是维持在6.11%将近10倍统计都是你在统计的啦你的相对贫穷率这个那个预算中心也帮你 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
317.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
算过大概是6到7%6到7%都比你现在一点多还高很多 对不对所以你们基本上不敢松绑第一码又不肯修法嘛喊了十几年了都没有变所以说100年来左右的差不多100户左右的弱势边缘户你要去怎么处理 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
318.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
一定要要求这个问题像我们今年长照的部分我们长照2.0十人集到长照3.0我们就增加了227亿长照有增加我没有错我现在跟你谈的社会救助 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
333.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
349.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
救助的部分這個部分我們也是都是盡量能夠希望說能夠來擴大範圍來給予補助那個沈院長主席長我再跟你講你去看喔整個關鍵在哪裡就政府把省錢當成最高的美德不會花錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
350.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
378.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
政府支出不足 我算数字给你看中央政府占GDP的比重我国政府只有占11%加地方政府才是17%这数字没有错吧OECD的国家是平均44%主席长你不要再当灭绝师太了本席也不会要求你当财神也只是一定要当个王母娘娘可不可以普度终身一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.664 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
406.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
人家平均OECD是14%日本去年39.4%我們不是先進國家嗎我們不是財政很好嗎你每天都說要還債我跟你講債務的數字好了馬英九2012的時候最高的數字政府的財政最慘所有GDP的39.5是最近法定數字的45我們現在多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
408.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
25對不對還是23 24對啊 20出頭耶這種情況底下我們明明有錢嘛不是沒有錢嘛我們是經濟高成長低負債的情況底下為什麼要扣這些窮人的錢呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
446.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這丟臉你知道嗎所以要如何讓總統這句話真正的落實美好的數字可以轉化成美好的日子你有責任啊兩位有責任啊一個是源頭管理一個是事後監督啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
448.366 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
476.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
審計長你最後寫報告了你這一部分能不能寫一份報告給本席一個月審計長 審計長 還有主計長誰要負責我們來寫好 審計長你來寫寫有效的一種方式站在一個審計觀點當中要求這些相關部會讓總統的這個美意得以落實得以落實美好的數字竟然沒有辦法落實到美好的生活20%的人30年來過的日子都一樣越來越慘 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
481.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
505.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這真的很丟臉你知道嗎還有一個部分基礎建設的部分錢要花在刀口上要花在刀口上那個省議長你現在在107年之前你都說推動了18年我們共同管溝的部分才完成了614.9公里對不對這顯然不夠嘛台灣的過去花了那麼多特別預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
522.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
在做了很多所謂的前瞻計畫那顯然是不足嘛你是不是從審計的觀點來去做一個整體的檢討來認為台灣現在需要的前瞻的這個計畫是什麼這才是真正強化社會韌性啊我們強化社會韌性有兩種工程 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
523.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
548.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
一種是法制的工程 一個是硬體的工程我剛剛跟你講的是一個法制面的一個工程這是強化社會韌性另外是硬體面的一個工程 強化社會韌性所以說呢 我們剛剛從一個法制面的現在從一個硬體面的能不能請那個 沈院長你也待了這麼久 你未來還會待六年你接下來這一份報告當中 你有機會追六年 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
550.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
568.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
主席長 你的任期也會相當的久我希望你能夠轉變一下角色你看喔 除了共同廣告之外我們強化能源的這個部分這一次因為那個斷電 斷訊很多 這個都是在基礎建設的時候可以用 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
569.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
597.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有沒有 那個這部分我還是要再請那個審計長你從你過去的一些長期以來在審計部門也曾經在主計部門待過的角色當中你再寫一份報告可以不可以可以 這兩份報告寫出來我們來建構一個屬於法治面的一個社會韌性還有一個基礎工程面的社會韌性把錢花在刀口上那我也請主計長改變一下角色不要再當滅絕師太 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
600.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
當一下王母娘娘好不好然後最後呢你現在就可以當王母娘娘最後一個你看我們最近的一個特別條例喔丹奈斯颱風的特別條例第一筆用到的錢就用在花蓮丹奈斯颱風耶用在花蓮在車輛受損的部分就五萬然後機車就有一萬放在台南的時候情何以堪台南中央沒有拿到任何錢而且地方給一萬跟五千耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
634.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個部分他有增加250億啦他增加30億現在就動用了對 他在30億的預備金當中動用了1億那既然30億裡頭可以動用到花蓮為什麼不能動用到台南你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
647.2 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
666.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
請主席長跟相關部會講一下思考一下把這些一樣要用在刀口上把這個特別條例或強化社會韌性條例當中構思一下同時在進行所謂的社會工程的這個韌性的建構還有法治工程的一個社會韌性的建構有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
668.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
677.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我不相信這兩個特別條例下去之後這兩種社會任性就可以建立起來我不相信但是從這兩個特別條例開始然後再從那個審議長這兩個報告繼續延續好不好好 感謝兩位 |