| IVOD_ID |
164063 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/164063 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-15-3 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
3 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-13T12:40:23+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-13T12:54:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5d6d14916e595edc7972ded3be636576179f4a20aeac8eafeaa2f1cd0be3abd6b99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:40:23 - 12:54:23 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-13T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢。） |
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謝謝主席我們內政部長請先坐著休息本席請這個農業部農業部次長還有我們經濟部水利署副署長請農業部經濟部水利署委員好我們這一次艷澀湖的這個災害我想這是國人覺得非常痛心的那我想這個 |
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醫療上預防勝於治療我相信所有的災害也是我想部長跟署長應該也都認同那這個很多人在說所以我要特別的就農業部跟經濟部來請教就是過往堰塞湖的處置案例過往堰塞湖的處置案例通常堰塞湖行程一個多月就處置完畢了 |
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花蓮的艳色湖是7月形成发生灾害的时候已经是9月23号溃堤没有看到任何的疏俊工程或者是这中间到底是判断错误还是怎么样的一个我想这个部分我们非常需要知道是政府的螺丝松了该做没有做所以一直延宕延宕到 |
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9月剛好來一個颱風結果產生這個問題還是怎麼樣來首先我想先請農業部次長非常謝謝委員關心因為其實在堰塞湖9月26號我們確認堰塞湖形成之後 |
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7月26確認形成之後其實相關的監測相關的應處其實都緊鑼密鼓在說因為就是因為覺得這件事要嚴正以待兩個狀況第一個是因為那個壺體確實很大所以其實這當中也有人在講說有沒有辦法 |
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141.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
就把那个验尸物把它这个看能不能把它消灭掉那其实也请了包括国防部也包括很多水利工程单位的人帮我们想想看有没有办法把那个霸体看能不能把它解体或让水流掉那这样至少对下游来讲就是不会有那么大的风险 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
142.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
163.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
这个是什么时候什么时候的我们从7月26号形成之后就开始密集找专家那在8月我有看到你们报告里面的时间序列那有考虑过要么用这个要不要国防部来爆破那其实也不可行因为旁边对这个考量然后决定不要用这个方法是在什么时候这是什么时间点 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
164.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
192.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
已經到8月了嗎 不好意思委員我來說明一下這個在 因為我看到你們齁就是整個7月26行程到 這個大概在8月十幾號就已經開始在評估我說明一下 對對對好 等一下 因為我時間有限齁你講到什麼我剛剛次長說的還有您說的到8月十幾號 因為我看到你們寫的時間序列齁7月26到8月3號你們就整個堰塞湖的量體分析災害風險 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
193.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
210.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
评估初步的评估还有建立预警机制可是我看到8月11号的时候特别提出了一个紧急调查报告为什么那个为什么是有一个紧急调查报告那一天这个调查报告到底他紧急什么他告诉了什么 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
210.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
232.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
然後剛剛您又講國防部這邊這個可能要爆破可能評估也是不好這也是8月10幾號那時候到底我們現在想了解就是說我們政府的評估或者是我們該做的到底有沒有實際的做8月11號那時候就是一個比較完整的全貌的評估 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.847 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
255.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那就是轮廓那那个的结论是什么那个的结论对艳色湖它的应该如何处置它就是针对那整个量体还有针对未来可能会形成的水量还有那个霸体的土方它有一个所以结论呢结论是什么因为我看过去我们从1999年开始全台湾各地艳色湖的形成 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
256.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
285.692 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我们发现他都在10天到两周之内一定会有一个评估而且他这个会做出处置就是后续我们该怎么做是要引流还是要建立什么还是在下游我们的这个提防各方面那我们这一次花莲的艳色湖既然7月26号形成那在8到了8月10号差不多你们也两周了你们那一 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
286.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
299.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那时候的决议到底如何处置这个艳色那个处置方式其实是一直都有持续在评估但是那边最大的问题你一直评估评估你总要有一个时间点你要做出一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
301.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
322.465 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
決定說你要怎麼處置包括剛剛次長說的我要不要用爆破還是什麼就是不行那個地方沒有辦法用爆破那你們那一次的決議那這個驗射壺怎麼樣持續觀察而已嗎沒有危險性嗎這個評估這個我們一次說沒有其他的工程方式我們還會有第二次看還可不可以找其他專家來評估有沒有其他的工程方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
322.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
341.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以一開始是爆破後來又有人提出說引流那或是說有人說這個可不可以有這個機具上去把那個堤方挖一個缺口其實這些不同的方式它不是在一次會議裡面那你剛剛說的第二個爆破沒做第二個引流不是沒做是沒辦法做因為它會引發更大的崩塌讓這個業社活更大那你剛剛說的引流可以做嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
346.314 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
引流可以做 引流也許可以做但是他必須要裝4條1米的這個不鏽鋼管而且每一條要在2.5公里以上要裝4條那那個驗射壺他是在一個深山的山谷他沒有辦法在那麼短的時間內去安裝這個事情而且現場持續在崩塌沒有工作人員能夠保障他們的生命安全在那樣的環境下 現場持續崩塌 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
400.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
这一条路也不能走那你们接着没有路啊对对对我是说是是是这个方案不能进行那你们没有第三个方案吗有啊第三个方案第三个方案是什么就是那是不是可以上去把它的这个所谓的坝去把它稍微挖一个缺口出来或者说挖低一点但是这个方式同样也是因为你要开一条路上去至少要三个月以上而且那个时间是在迅起也没办法做这个事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
401.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
420.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以那個地方最主要所以你提你講了三個想出來都是不可行的那最後到底OKOK評估出來的那最後呢最後就是所以就是在中下游要加強輸菌中下游加強輸菌你們什麼時候開始做你們什麼時候有開始做 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
420.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
448.955 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
应该是八月中那时候就邀集了包含水利署包含了花莲县政府还有我们自己那时候就已经开始去做了那时候也希望说至少希望能够在未来即使在没有台风的情况下它在自然溢流之前可以让中下游河道增加水的容量哪一天决定要疏浚而且疏浚的期程是那一天的决议疏浚的期程是怎么样应该是八月十六号的会议 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
449.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
462.357 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
好8月16號決定要輸菌然後預計多久要輸菌完成在9月底前要完成60萬噸的輸菌有三個9月底前對對對然後也包含河岸 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
491.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有一些之前堤防的缺口什麼那些要把它補強堤防缺口是水利署嗎還是是你們應該是水利署因為發生了之後當地的民眾講說破堤點只差100公尺那舊堤防跟新堤防它的一個缺口一直沒有補對這塊可能要請副署長我再重申那個不是叫缺口那個是開口堤 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
494.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
521.323 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個這個堤防這個設計方式是全世界都有案例日本叫做霞堤也就是他的保護標準都到設計保護標準那這一次自災不是只有那邊有溢出去而且是整個在這個他應該是上面整個潰堤吧對因為大流量下就像我們的設計標準才2000出頭的一個洪峰流量他下來是88004倍的洪峰流量一個輕量級要跟重量級去打 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
546.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以沿路有2800公尺的堤防都破了所以峽堤當然這個部分開口堤是溢出去沒錯但是它的整個整個防線的潰瓣並不是那個OK好那我了解那我還是請次長還有剛剛這一位是不是我們林業林業自然署的是嗎是林署長那所以呢所以這個艷澀湖我們就眼睜睜看著它 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
548.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
569.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不是眼睜睜我們就是剛剛講所有的你們所有的會議決策會議記錄是不是在會後可以提供給沒有問題那這樣看來等於提早大概一個多月不到兩個月驗射服行程到發生災害我們沒有辦法有效的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
570.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
596.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
防止这个灾害的发生所以就是着重在中下游的减灾方案如同我刚刚跟您报告的那另外还有一个就是说必要的时候必须要疏散那如果本席问一个假设性问题因为你们说在9月底以前要整个完成下游的整个的就是60万吨的清水那如果这次风灾它是10月才来是不是不会造成这个我想请教 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
597.377 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
620.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
災害可能會減輕一點但是因為這次的災害如同剛剛水利署的副署長也說明了那個堤防它沒有辦法承受這麼大量所以確實是所以最重要還是上面整個潰堤下來才造成這麼大的災害對 那個當然是源頭那我們以現代科技整個工程各方面真的都沒辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
622.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
638.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
在很短的时间内只有不到两个月的时间内刚刚所讲的工程手段是没有办法没有没有我们那时候并不知道九月二十几号会有风灾我的意思说你们那时候在面对这个艳色湖的时候我们到底有没有办法 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
639.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
666.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
能够有正确的处置以及是不是真正及时的处置这是我们所有的疑虑在两个月内确实没有办法用工程的手段没有两个月内而是形成之后你不知道九月底会有风灾嘛我们那时候预估十月会一流啦那时候已经有估计十月会一流对对对有估计在十月中前后这个我们都有公开资讯我们设了一个网站每天都对外公开 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
666.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
689.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
因為我有看你們後來整個有監測他的整個水位各方面8月中就開始把這些資訊完全上網公開任何人都可以查得到OK 謝謝本席不好意思最後再借用我請部長內政部長我們很快的要詢問一下就是這整個如果真的災害來的時候細胞廣播觸發門檻與時點 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
692.312 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
719.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個這個細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細細 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
723.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
751.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就是我刚刚问的这整个细胞广播系统是不是有纳入你们的这个整个那个方案的强制条件有因为其实我们不只纳入而且我们还做了演练确保在那有多语吗包含原住民原住民语整个防灾教材是文字细胞广播是用文字对那有关那广播的部分防灾教材 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
751.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
773.231 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
整个防灾教材什么时候可以全覆盖还有能够年年更新细胞广播的部分其实相对含概率是全覆盖吗但是在当地的广播的部分其实特别是在原乡的一些村镇其实村长里长他们都会使用当地的语言去做宣导 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
774.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
796.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
做说明最后就是刚刚我们说的这个艳色湖警戒监测及撤离和演练方案他从101年修订后就没有再更新但是我们现在一直这种极端气候我们发现我们也掌控不了天象各方面所以感觉是脱节了所以这一个部分是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
797.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
819.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
什么时候行政院可以提出这是农业部还是内政部能够提出新的方案这个部分我们会再来做检讨因为特别包括这次在花莲地区有很多包括各机关还有花莲县府还有很多志工在里面的这个状况其实我想将来在整个不管是疏散演练的这些应该都要纳进来 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
820.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
835.453 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
包含在101年的时候可能也没有所谓的AI还有无人机等卫星等等新兴的技术它的长设条件和资料可能要共享所以这一块我们希望来加强有备无患谢谢 |