| IVOD_ID |
163986 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163986 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-36-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-09T11:35:27+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-09T11:49:07+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:40 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62eb27a2d6cae20016119d4e8153da54efdcf33aa1b58936823c5bd6785be991ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
羅智強 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:35:27 - 11:49:07 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。 【10月8日及9日兩天一次會】） |
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好主席有請那個考選部長全序部長跟保訓會主委我想先請我們的部長就是那個全序部長立法院已經三讀通過警察 |
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人員人事條例修正案嘛你知道嘛 對不對我知道那讓警察 消防 海巡 移民 空總人員可以提高退休的所得替代率讓他們退休生活更有保障嘛那我知道全區部當時是反對這個立法嘛那現在修法已經通過部長還是維持反對的立場嗎對 我還是維持反對但是我們會根據法例我剛剛已經報告過該我們做的事情我們都在執行中好 非常好你要執行 在執行中 |
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那我要特別再強調啦警察、消防、海巡、移民跟空總人員所執行的勤務都是全序部認定高度圍牢職務沒錯嘛 對不對 |
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所以這也是我們修法的一個原因那麼你像警察踩輪班制作息日夜顛倒還時常要長勤務來停修那因此他們的所得替代率我們有一個特殊的保障 |
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那這個部分是當初一個立法目的那你也知道內政部警政署統計數字顯示警消的平均死亡年齡是75歲但我們國人平均壽命是81歲相比壽命差距達6年之多那我想請教一下為什麼會差那麼多 |
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退休以後的平均餘命怎麼做跟很多因素影響不過我跟委員報告那一個數字可能大家可以再做double check一下我印象中我們部裡面掌握的數字應該沒有差到那麼多沒關係你把數字再給我看好不好你不要口頭說數字不一樣數字拿給我看我們這也是看到政府相關的數字我們才拿出來的 |
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權序部一再稱 危牢職務可以提早退休 債值待遇較高可是事實上你沒去想過 他們平均壽命為什麼那麼短其實跟他們的勤務有關 跟他們職務關係有關不用講別的 你拿錦霄來講的話 錦霄的殉職的可能性就比一般公務員高得多得多沒錯吧 |
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我沒有實際的數字但是理論上應該是會那你如果要推翻理論你就實際數字拿出來所以在這邊我要跟這個部長講為什麼在這些事情的立場上我是立場比較強硬的 |
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原因就是因為我們就是社會治安就靠警察保護我們都受警察保護的人打火兄弟每次出生入死大家也看到只要他們在火場當中殉職我們所有政府官員排排站全部去攻擊因此對於這些所謂的警消的退休生活的保障我們願意來去這是我們應該要給他的一個退休生活保障的一個 |
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特別的禮遇但是很遺憾今天我們看到政府處理態度並不相同這是我們剛剛講就是說如果政府都不願意善待他們最近我們的政府很喜歡講要強化社會韌性跟民防韌性強化社會韌性強化民防韌性對待警消的人員友善一點然後能夠從他們立場多照顧一點 |
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233.53 |
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259.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那不就是一種社會任性跟民防任性的強化嗎那最後我接下來就要問了事實上我們為什麼今天通過這個就是警察人人事條例要來去提高他退休後的所得替代率提高他退休的保障今天非常遺憾行政院就跟你講不編預算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
260.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
279.497 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
剛剛你已經講了說全序部也做好準備啦因為立法院法律通過了嘛你個人反對都有尊重你的反對但立法院今天就是民意機關大家已經通過這個法律我想請教一下部長請問如果行政院不編預算請問你接下來工作怎麼進行啊你能進行嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
281.34 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
296.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
因為根據我們憲法跟預算法的規定這個所有的中央政府總預算案的編制權是在行政院所以這個事情行政院當然啦我知道所以沒為難你嘛我剛剛質詢有為難你嗎沒有吧沒有預算你也做不了事嘛不是嗎 沒錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
297.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
325.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們就是按照我們該做的事情這事應該也沒有為難你啦這事你就回答就做不了事就對了啦你沒有預算怎麼做事告訴我你掏腰包嗎 部長你會掏腰包嗎叫你掏腰包也不公平嘛 對不對所以你就做不了事嘛今天我要特別講為什麼在野黨要提出復議第一個原因就是坦白講我們覺得行政院這樣欺負警校我們是看不下去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
326.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
350.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
全區部都說他們是危險勤務的人員他們對我們國家在前面保障治安保障人民的生命財產安全立法院法律都通過了 我們是民意機關我還是要再次強調我不為難你 不叫你回答行政院現在提這個四線的說法坦白講是在欺騙社會大眾 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
352.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
380.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
因為我相信你當公務員當部長當公務員這麼久我們也是我在政府單位也服務過非常清楚是要釋憲的程序嘛釋憲程序很簡單啦行政院是有權釋憲沒錯啦但是呢在大法官會議做出所謂的緊急處分緊急處分就有凍結法律的效果嘛沒錯吧對不對他做緊急處分他可以凍結這個法律嘛他在做緊急處分之前沒有凍結這個法律之前這法律是有效還是無效 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
382.705 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
406.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這法律就是有效的啊那你今天在法律有效的情況下你跟我講說等大法官會解釋出來你才要編預算這本身就是危險啦侵犯立法權的核心更重要我當然知道現在行政院也不在乎立法權啦可是重點是什麼你也是在欺負我們的警察消防這些危險勤務人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
407.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
433.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
同樣的道理 這個當然跟權序部可能不是你主管了立法院三讀通過軍人待遇條例除了提高自願加級對於訓練勤務繁重的戰鬥部隊弟兄也提高他們的加級這個你總知道吧 這個法律通過你知道了雖然不是你們主管啦其實這個情況跟我剛剛前面講的那個警消的狀況是相同的所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
434.372 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
462.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
結果一樣我們行政院還是不編預算啊還是不編預算啊在野黨說真的我們到現在為止都非常善意的像我們本來上禮拜本來有提退回總預算嘛後來我們商量以後跟在野黨商量以後覺得說不要用退回的方式等於讓行政院還可以有個再思考的機會所以我們就是沒有把退回案我們把退回案這個打住 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
463.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
486.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
然後我們現在改用的方式是提出復議提出復議其實用意就是給行政院一個機會不要把今天警消跟軍人的權益當作是一個政治鬥爭的籌碼比方說以軍人來講我們國防預算明年要高達9495億佔據率3.32% |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
493.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
520.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
比今年要增加1768億是史上最高但是我們看到行政院還是就是不編軍人的預算事實上我們現在兩岸我覺得我這樣講兩岸之間兵兇戰危大家都擔心戰爭發生的可能性請問部長嘛戰爭發生以後是誰去保家衛國是誰嘛答案應該很清楚吧 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
525.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
541.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那最重要在前線 衝鋒陷陣守住疆土 甚至犧牲生命最重要的最前線是誰 當然是國軍嘛 沒錯嘛那這種情況之下而且我們現在國軍邊線比都不夠啊軍校招生都越來越少啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
542.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
564.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
原因是什麼 就是你今天不能夠一直用要他們去付出生命的代價但是又告訴他我不想要改善你的待遇我們今天國民黨其實在野黨就是因為看到兩岸之間可能有戰爭的風險所以今天我們希望能夠給軍人合理的待遇 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
566.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
593.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
讓他們覺得今天當然保家衛國是他們光榮的責任啦他們會這麼認為因為我們的軍人是有愛國心的可是你也不能是因為他有愛國心就跟我講說啊沒關係待遇你就你就不要計較了這是為什麼今天我們要提出這個軍人待遇條例的一個修正的一個最重要原因所以在這邊齁我這邊也表達今天為什麼我們今天提出復議案再次請喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
594.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
618.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們的行政院可以好好想想我們的軍人警消的一個情況那接下來我就要講就是說我們國民黨團已經將停侃公教年金的公務人員退休之前撫恤法以及公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤法列為本會期的要優先通過的法案 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
619.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
645.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我想請教部長你還是反對停侃公教年金嗎是不是我還是要從整個基金財務的角度呢提供這個說明然後我覺得幫我們把財務狀況做更清楚的說明大家好好討論你剛剛前面都已經講過我知道啦你的論點我一向都知道我想請教一件事情你知道你剛剛講說基金什麼破產啊什麼的問題嘛對不對是不是沒錯吧他會歸零歸零嘛來來來那我想請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
650.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
678.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你知道我們勞保有類似的問題吧?一樣勞動部的回答是什麼?這幾年撥補了三千多億人沒錯吧?對每年都有撥補每年都有撥補他還是有破產問題對不對跟你一樣嘛你知道勞動部怎麼講嗎?勞動部說政府有最後支付責任勞保絕對不會倒大家請放心很有魄力啊那我就問了公教是二等公民嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
679.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
708.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是嗎我支持喔我先講不要被扣帽子我支持勞保政府負擔最後支付責任勞保絕對不能倒我支持但是我要幫我們公教人員講一句話為什麼到公教人員這個政府的肩膀就不見了第三個我要跟部長講部長講我都沒有為難你都沒有為難你因為這所謂的雙標的問題我覺得你也不好回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
709.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
733.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
第二 第三 我跟你講請問我們今天提的案子是要回到2018年以前的所謂的年金水準嗎 是嗎是不是沒有 是112年停止調降有112跟113停砍嘛 對不對所以不是要回到你的所謂的年金之前的狀況嘛我跟部長講一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
735.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
762.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們也遇到太多太多我們現在公教人員我相信你不否認啦台灣不管時代建設激進奇蹟然後包括說今天我們台積電的建設都有很多優秀公務員在後面撥話這些公教人員在我們國家發展過程當中是我們最中間安定的力量今天卑微到什麼程度我就用個比喻跟你講啦你年金砍了這麼多年你把他血跟肉都砍掉了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
763.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
788.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
今天非常卑微是說不是要回到把血肉補回來只是求求你骨跟筋不要再斷它嘛手跟腳不要再斷它嘛肉跟血都被你砍了 吸了很卑微我告訴大家我相信全民也能接受今天公教人員不是沒有為你剛剛所謂的年經的永續你拿著這個大的一個目標 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
789.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
816.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
在犧牲自己 不是沒有耶這麼多年已經砍了多少了他們也沒有要求要回復到原點去啊只是真的砍過頭了嘛你們過去考試院提的版本也不是今天這個版本 沒錯吧不是後來現在實行這個版本 沒錯啊你們也沒砍那麼重啦真的到最後是砍過頭 我告訴你那今天也不過卑微的說拜託 留一口氣給公教人員吧謝謝您好 謝謝委員 |