| IVOD_ID |
163979 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163979 |
| 日期 |
2025-10-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-4-26-2 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
2 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-10-09T10:19:12+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-10-09T10:37:12+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:18:00 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0913948005eacb62448f9a368c4ea9ea819c05f3ca7f3b919ebc85139e6d204f73de26ceb07beb505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:19:12 - 10:37:12 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-10-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【10月8日及9日二天一次會】） |
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台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
41.228 |
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這個肉圓的頭家 已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間 我就看一個年輕人家他說 阿傑桑 我們好生啊 怎麼會在這裡他就聽說 現在在找頭路啦 現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊 有時候要倒介紹嗎 好啊 委員 你有什麼介紹的空間 很歡迎的過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
63.516 |
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啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃陶螺啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺點東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
81.685 |
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過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼 |
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他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用 |
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149.293 |
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這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找 |
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維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天啦 三天啦要給你兩天 要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事情要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.3 |
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呃 當然現在是可以的 現在是可以的嘛好 那換成你是老闆 我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊 你工廠喔 有請外勞嗎 他說有啊 有請外勞啊啊 現在咧 現在 啊 現在就 頂端的酒啊 我們請南輝喔 啊 就先給 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
196.16 |
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220.5 |
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先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙這樣可以嗎 |
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224.483 |
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249.427 |
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這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆 台灣老闆你會怎麼做 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.005 |
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279.315 |
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可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮 經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有辦法修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一七千多人 有沒有報案 他說 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
282.662 |
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308.024 |
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現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
309.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
336.607 |
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現在我們現在啊 農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了 農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢 但是台灣人喔 你如果說過去喔我們中小企業 中小工廠啊 你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情 你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊 你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活 他不會說啊 做不來啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
337.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
362.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我有些效果 我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的 我來看一些掛紅來啦 種一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
364.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
380.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
碼頭就是什麼 公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌 很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁 都是碼頭去救他 他有固定的卡啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
381.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
406.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
現在什麼人中破災 要去賺幾兆 賺50兆 賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷 他會去繳那樣就知道了 往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
410.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
439.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
441.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
458.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
462.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
486.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
蘇長 趕快 你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員 基本上移工的開放 當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以 有哪些風險 哪些爭議目前就無法有明定 就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主 法律規定嘛 對不對是的 好 那你告訴我 法律規定之外有哪些爭議 有哪些違法先不講違法 哪些爭議 哪些失誤的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
489.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
508.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
除了法律的規定之外 有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的 你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明 因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時 我問你現在啦是 他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說 我剛剛就講了嘛 陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
509.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
537.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
啊 移工休息了 那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠 流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊 可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛 我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦 除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙 影響到誰的就業 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
539.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
552.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
影響到誰的就業 你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個 幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
553.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
569.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
571.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
597.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
597.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
602.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
603.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
632.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊 收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣 往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
633.581 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
657.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
再往下看 往回往回往回看 再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好 這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
658.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
685.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢 那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼 遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉 我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛 我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞 工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
687.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
710.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我如果說大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦 對吧 有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
712.049 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
727.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
728.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
752.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間 是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架 是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
754.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
778.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
一天多少錢嗎 其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊 它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工 我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後 你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後 七點 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
779.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
787.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
789.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
817.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
818.795 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
840.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他不用逃逸 他不用失聯 為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了 他就不會長而且呢 這個老公來講 一樣回去怎麼樣 工廠包大隻工廠包吃住 那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛 我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
845.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
860.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸 不會失聯 往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
861.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
884.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
888.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
902.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
903.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
931.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那個委員 這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對 因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
932.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
948.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
948.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
962.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
963.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
990.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
但是這些移工竟然搶你可能 美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的 繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子 有人計票出兵 有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 多少兩三千賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
992.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1013.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1018.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1033.956 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
是 鮑委員 我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過嗎可能 我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1035.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1056.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
講了一些空空的問題 什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1056.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1075.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝 |