| IVOD_ID |
163785 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163785 |
| 日期 |
2025-09-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-4-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-09-19T15:54:47+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-09-19T16:15:15+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:28 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a13958a8f88290d5889a7992108cb222197a2d3359dbf60a5987f5b36baeae8c032c655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
郭國文 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:54:47 - 16:15:15 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-09-19T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案。） |
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我們請郭國文委員詢問賴世保委員請準備主席有請沈機長麻煩再請被提名人沈機長郭委員好沈機長恭喜 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
24.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
49.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
過去六年來 我知道我們審計部其實在秉持三大功能落實監督 強化洞察 邁向潛戰接下來這六年要朝向智慧審計 永續審計 韌性審計跟共振戰志這四大面向來完成可是當我們又有新的一個面向要發展之前我們就回顧舊的這一個三大的目標功能有沒有達成 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
50.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
75.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
就過去來說的話基本上整個審計部有提出25項跟29項的關鍵議題報告過去這兩年但是這兩年當中其實延續我過去在地方政府在參考你們地方的審計處的報告當中確實都羅列得非常清楚報告寫得洋洋灑灑但是都有一個習慣就是最後的結語都很溫和 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
76.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
84.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
结局是什么呢 建议改善结局是什么呢 就是通盘检讨感觉上都不痛不痒 隔穴骚痒 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
109.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
要說又不敢說 點到為止然後就有一種現象最近稍微有一點改變就是本席當初就要你做一個改善所得分配跟低薪的問題專報的時候你就有直指問題的核心譬如講你那時候就提到產算法的部分有關於這一個前提過於嚴格或者學費的補助的時候比較有感 應該持續推動 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
111.345 |
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127.902 |
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本席心目中的這個審計報告當中應該要直指核心根據問題如何解決而不是解釋問題所以說我是覺得你接下來要續任這六年的審計長我除了恭喜之外有更高的期待 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
128.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
146.45 |
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你要如何改變這個文化這非常關鍵啊不要讓人家淪為這個官官相負啊你審計部所扮演的角色就是在做一個內部的監督嘛對不對 情長你有沒有辦法改變這樣子溫柔的文化所以要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
148.494 |
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169.813 |
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會照委員會意見來做 像所得分配委員很關心我們13年來是查後來行政院就成立了經濟發展委員會他裡面把低薪的問題把一些房價的問題住宅的問題都放進去了那我們說現在住宅整個政府我們看觸及到差不多290萬戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
201.062 |
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對啊 所以這個就政府都有在做沈院長你講的就沒有錯啦當你指出問題核心的時候行政部門的態度就會有所不同嘛這凸顯你的角色重不重要凸顯你的審計報告寫的方式重不重要所以不要再寫那些空洞的隔靴搔癢的 什麼通盤減少什麼要有所改善現在我們都改了就會改 一樣全部都改 你都改你只有部分改而已 你還改的不夠啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
201.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
204.643 |
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你只有那個部分改 要繼續改全面改你的角色很關鍵你接下來還要幹6年 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
221.489 |
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248.271 |
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審計部還有什麼問題呢 我跟你講審計部還有輕輕放下抓小放大 我跟你說你們審計部啊 發現問題之後啊就送哪裡 送監察院嘛那監察院做什麼監察院多數是對機關提出糾正比較少對人去進行懲處 你有沒有發現對人的部分就發放到哪裡發放到各行政機關嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
249.733 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
260.141 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
放放到原來選擇單位 他們不處理結果是如何我就用結果讓你來做討論你就看113年決算審計報告為例1 審計部陳報監察院的案件當中一共250件結果一送檢調並糾正一件 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
276.786 |
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291.918 |
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另外要求你查明處分的113件你已經要求查明處分了各機關實際處分37件乘除124人而中間記大過了兩個記大過 兩個小過120個申屆 高達95%好了 你要求的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
305.643 |
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334.254 |
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就輕輕放下嘛對不對你高高舉起嘛輕輕放下你站在一個行政部門的檢察官類似的角色當中你要求要明文查處就是說呢你求情量刑看求情都很重但是量刑很低是不是你定罪利太低是不是你有問題你有沒有思考過這樣的結果有沒有實質上達到什麼具體的改善的可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
335.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
361.371 |
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我們和監察院合作是還蠻好的啦一些縱效我送給他的 差不多25%有糾正也有彈劾這個大概我和監察院的我有去注意到這個問題但是華裡面我們發現他有維瓦失足我們也有直接送的喔我們送了兩千多件喔但是你要求他們那你以後就直接送就好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
362.871 |
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379.735 |
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那你為什麼要繞一個圈讓他自行去處理我就說直接你自己也看到了從你決算審視報告當中你的比例上我再舉一個例子你112年的時候總決算的時候你提出619項的審計意見到了113年 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
384.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
397.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
總決算的時候這619件當中還有153件他通知他們再次改善怎麼會這樣怎麼會你要求他再處理的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
399.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
419.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
還有四分之一不處理這不是挑戰你審計部的權威嗎這代表你的權威性不足嘛對不對你要求的他根本沒有在多大的程度在重視你審計部的意見嘛那你審計部寫這麼多意見是做我們比賽嗎這樣啦 這刑事機關大部分會改但是有的要給他時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
421.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
438.743 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
所以我們也要看在行之淵有的是要立法有的要修改規則所以一年我們查到他修改規則的兩千多件我相信你有一些是需要修改相關的法治但是就這樣的結果你有沒有想過 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
439.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
468.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
如何去改變外在說你高高舉起輕輕放下的這一種常態性的這種狀況你有沒有想說你新任的這個未來的六年的這個省紀長的角色當中有沒有可能改善啦本席要問你的重點是這個啦這個我們會照委員的意思來改善好 要做喔我看你要怎麼做喔另外一個部分喔還有一個部分啊就是呢變成是抓小放大跟基層在受罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
470.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
474.408 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
政治責任是誰做的為什麼最後擊沉我講具體的意思啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
475.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
502.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
譬如講 你從這一個啊這個113年決算比較嚴重的財務上的這個為師啊移送監察院跟司法偵辦的類型來看一共幾件 七件中央一件 就是警政署的這採購案地方六件 三件文書登載不實涉案的有村長 縣府跟公所人員還有一件呢 是大學的詐領案你看 這不是抓小放大嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
504.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
511.085 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
就是專門看起來都是小件事情啊你看還有一件雲林我國中荷霄不死都是三七成人員啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
512.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
537.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
然後呢 金額都不高啊都是被你地方審計單位移送的啦你移送的就是這些啦我們大一半 小一半不能二小 我不為什麼大一半 小一半我現在用數位審計啊 那個微標我一查查到兩千多件啊 那個刑事處啊那個沒有罰款的有一億六千多萬啊我講的這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
539.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
554.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
市長 你剛好講到小的沒有講到大的你未來的數位審計是未來啦我現在跟你談的是現實啊你寫的報告當中我幫你整理出來啦好 照我們會注意就只有抓小放大嘛對啊 我也放大 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
555.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
577.557 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
不會放大我們對大的更會注意好 更大會注意好 我看你怎麼注意好不好你說剛剛我現在不諱言我們就說救安基金災難黨一直追打救安基金我就談救安基金的就好西融的這個救安基金當中你們當初事情爆發之後你才發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
581.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
595.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
10110年到113年有5000多萬跟基金用途的關聯性不大對不對但是呢100年到112年的決算審計報告當中你裡頭都沒有提到基金內控失靈的問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
596.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
619.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你都沒有提到管理風險的問題啊你就注重這個計畫的執行面的審計而已啊才會導致後面問題越來越大條啊審計功能不彰的結果就會讓問題越來越嚴重啊這你沒有責任嗎這個就是什麼 沈議長這是本席剛剛跟你討論的抓小放大的結果啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
621.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
628.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
怎麼改善 怎麼面對你用規則給人力了這是大小的問題啦不是人力的問題啦這是心態的問題啦你用AI就可以解決這些問題你不要一直推給 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
648.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
676.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
未來的事情你要先面對過去的錯誤才能考慮到未來的解方這是面對過去的錯誤發現要這樣做這是具體的事情你要怎麼解決這個抓小放大好你剛剛講說什麼你的目標是大一半小一半是不是我們通抓通通大一半小一半只要有不分大小全部都抓我有財務紀律我們都等著看等著看你接下來報告怎麼樣好 那你就查一件你查一件給本席看好 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
678.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
688.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我給你看一件本席 雷聲大雨點小審計部真的是作文比賽這個作文題目是什麼 台中大理垃圾山 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
692.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
714.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
34萬噸的垃圾他需要17年才能清理完成7月份台中審計處的時候已經介入事業費不減反增清潔隊弊案連連你去發現問題你要追查到底你就這個例子你去查百億的大弊案焚化爐經費從31億增加到85億 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
718.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
741.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你17年要花多少錢要花37億才能清運這個垃圾山你們也查到問題喔你們不是沒有查喔你有查到問題喔一 預算暴增50幾億審計部寫的二 清潔對內上百次偏離路線違法收運事業廢棄物 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
745.339 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
765.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
還有三 市府把一般垃圾丟大裡卻用低於價格幫廠商燒事業廢棄物 圖利數千萬這問題你有沒有發現 還不少這問題是不是你們寫的這是我們台中審計處查的台中寫的當你們發現問題的時候你們發現問題 你知道你台中怎麼寫嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
772.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
789.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你怎麼寫 問題還不少耶你們最後想說 你們也覺得看起來內情不太單純但最後你們叫什麼叫台中市政府檢討叫台中市政府檢討而已耶欸 沈議長100億耶這事情是大條還是小條 我就問你嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
791.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
817.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個AI查到了你們心態是怎麼講嘛用AI可以解決這個問題嗎台中市的垃圾啊是有一點隱憂啦用AI可以解決這個問題你剛剛不是說用AI要處理嗎你的AI審計可以處理這個問題嗎你這個沒有AI你都查到了啊你查到結果你叫市政府檢討100億的幣啊你用市政府檢討這AI可以解決的嗎 審計長我請問你這個是用人工查的用科技用人工查的什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
818.538 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
844.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這不是用AI查的不是用AI查的 用人工就查了啊可是那最後寫的是叫你市政府檢討而已啊這一般啦 他一定要檢討啦那要檢討要知道這個案子怎麼樣嗎我們看到問題 一定先找機關說你要趕快解決喔對啊 你就是這樣子而已啊那你不是可以直接移送嗎然後你再看看 最後的結果是怎樣幾位清潔人員被判刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
846.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
868.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
台市這麼大條 整百個弊案發生在台中期發生在這噴色沙 結果你叫人檢討而已社會到高台會過 你心計薄你在做行刑內部監督這個案子累積了多少年從35億變85億足足增加50幾億 共要300多億 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
871.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
899.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
花十七年的時間才能清允的垃圾山要再花公帑三十七億組長你不覺得這個案子大不大我問你嘛那你後續要怎麼處理嘛這麼大的案子你要一個建樹建林啦你要直接找檢調連政署查清楚寫那麼多報告有什麼用問題你都發現啊怎麼解決這不是高高舉起輕輕放下就是年生大於年小嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
900.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
929.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
未來六年你是個角色啊我們會注意我們會注意這樣的一個情景再檢討一次嗎好好檢討 再檢討 繼續檢討你會注意有什麼特別的處理方式嗎 你就講啊我們還要整個了解 因為這是在台中市審計處的你這報告寫那麼久了 你還要進行了解你要怎麼處理嘛 你現在想嘛你要怎麼處理嘛 怎麼了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
930.979 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
958.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
了解有什麼用 了解問題有什麼用解決問題才有用啊你就是過去一直停留在了解的階段問題才會越來越大啦這個公開打你們臉欸你審計完全沒有發揮效果 你知道嗎看地方出現這麼多問題我再講給你聽最近的財政收支法新法的財政收支法接下來是考驗審計部跟地方的審計人員怎麼說 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
960.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
966.197 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你想喔 我們現在的財政收支劃分法通過新的版本之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
967.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
988.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
按照目前的狀況我先講給你聽你現在查到很多的地方問題地方的執行能力就出現一個很大的問題我舉一個例子113年的時候地方的這個決算剩餘款是716億但是實質上地方當初的政府預算短差是553億簡單的講這一來一回當中就有1269億 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
996.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
997.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
12691 這12691沒有辦法去執行這第一個 這第一個問題因為你人員不變 就這樣子 12691 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1006.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1035.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
到接下來整個財政收支發文法之後呢地方上會多拿多少多拿4165億啦你看這4165億再加上1269億他以前短差553億都沒有辦法執行喔有那麼多錢都沒有辦法執行的情況底下人員不變的情況底下又多了4160多億你的角色就是避免浪費公帑啊你的角色就是矿政財政紀律啊對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1036.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1049.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
這是不是挑戰來了這整個問題是垂直分配出問題水平分配又出問題的情況底下以後地方政府有錢有錢的要死窮窮的要命 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1052.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1073.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
市長 你有沒有想過這個問題 接下來怎麼辦 怎麼面對這一個行政院已經在邀請各地方政府來行政院的事情 我在問你的事情如果行政院沒有修法的話怎麼辦你不要推給行政院剛剛講的有一些分配不出氣財政部有這樣的一個說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1074.026 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1101.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
對整個的我們的財政的效益是有損失的你不要再跟我繞圈子了我知道你在跑運動圈我不想追你了目前的編制 預算的規模中央跟地方的市權都沒有調整是多了四一六五億以後市權如果再下放的話你這麼多人員沒有增加的話我看你怎麼執行你後來就會變成什麼你知道嗎 我跟你預言 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1102.762 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1113.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
就發紅包啦 大傻逼啦這種是最直接了當的啦這最有可能浪費公帑啦沈議長 本席提醒你啦你到底有沒有去面對這個問題你到底有沒有想過這個問題我現在就要問你這個問題啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1115.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1122.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我是希望你提早預知可能在既有體制下的問題但是你可能是相對的角色你要怎麼面對這可能衍生出來問題審計人員要如何增加人量 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1141.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1164.866 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
你了解我意思嗎所以我再跟你提醒一點相對是這種問題的話你要去思考本席提醒你 問你的問題就是要去思考未來的六年的省計長有不一樣的角色要面臨挑戰但是你要面臨未來六年之前你要思考以前的六年以前的六年的地方預算你要自己好好的思考如何去進行一個總檢討 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1166.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1184.93 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
還有你要去思考新版的財法法可能帶來的什麼樣的衝擊那我希望你在這個情況底下站在你審計單位當中來思考這個財政收支法可能造成的衝擊你要寫一份專案報告有沒有可能 沈院長有 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1186.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1211.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
可以用這份報告來思考過去六年到底地方政府的財政或中央政府財政你也可以寫啦到底出了什麼樣的問題啦這一部新版的財政收支發問法之後可能在體制上出什麼問題而你的審計部的角色地方審計處人員的角色要怎麼因應你應該要提早有所因應那這個報告你什麼時候寫給本席兩個月內兩個月喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1216.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1220.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你如果提早寫出來的話有助於大家離去共識啦好 謝謝 |