| IVOD_ID |
163784 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163784 |
| 日期 |
2025-09-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-4-1 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
4 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
1 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-09-19T15:33:50+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-09-19T15:54:26+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:36 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8e361f1746a139580e4b8067394ab11e92108cb222197a2d944b535faab16581ff736705a4ade47f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:33:50 - 15:54:26 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-09-19T15:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第4會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為審計部審計長陳瑞敏任期於114年10月1日屆滿，茲依據憲法第一百零四條規定，提名陳瑞敏續任審計部審計長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝接下來我們請陳昭之委員詢問郭國文委請準備謝謝主席有請提名人麻煩再請被提名的陳時任議長陳委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.727 |
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56.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
提名人好那我一下就稱呼您這審計長審計的職權包括這個監督這個機關的預算的執行還有稽查這個機關人員他們對於財務財政方面是不是有不法或不忠於職務這個行為那相對的就是機關的部分當他面對審計人員在執行這個他的職權的時候他必須詳實回答或提供資料不得隱匿是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
59.452 |
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71.437 |
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那如果發現機關人員他有不法或不忠於這個他的職務的部分那是不是要報請監察院依法處理那如果涉及刑事責任還要依法送辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
73.238 |
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89.577 |
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對 因為不法就是他委員所談的是對的那麼我在審計部的審計報告當中發現跟台電相關的這個篇幅不少但我必須說很多不法的事情審計部是摸到了邊但有待深入 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
90.838 |
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109.186 |
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很多不法的情勢是如此我的意思是說有摸到邊但沒有深入更多不法的情勢台電是很會隱匿的審計部毫無直覺稍後我會跟審計長說明這個部分我們先回到簡報上你看審計報告的截圖報告上面說環團認為台電隱匿了協和電廠土壤超標的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.569 |
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144.289 |
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那審計部卻只認為台電未來有框起來的地方對廠區污染 土壤污染的情形負有揭露及處理責任審計長我想要請問你各個行政機關還有國營事業既然是有心想引力你覺得他還會主動他會願意要負起揭露跟處理的責任嗎我們是有通知台電要他改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
145.686 |
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153.094 |
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但是也有通知環境部要他處理但是沒有處理的話有逐年上升的現象 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
154.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
175.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們還在追查還有更多 沈機長在環評會上台電提供的資料隱匿了協和電廠有土壤污染的嚴重情形但是在多方努力之下在環境部跟基隆市市政府的環保局一同進場查證了好幾個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
178.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
202.174 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
確認這個是報告書長質土壤污染超過管制標準將被公告為所謂的污染的長質台電終於必須承認必須正視並且整治改善污染狀況這是台電本來就該做的事情但是它內部卻長期要一再的隱匿一直到今年這個問題才被正式挖掘攤開來 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
204.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
231.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
請問沈記長 你要不要報請這個監察院依法處理呢這一個 我們如果這種現象我們馬上查不是如果啊 有報告啊對 那我們會馬上查核馬上移送 如果有這個事實怎麼馬上 你看到這個報告沒有做嗎我們一線作案 這個是我們以前今天回去就做了是不是移送監察院好 我們移送監察院這一個如果確實我們就移送監察院報告就出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
233.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
250.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
今天回去就做了9月9號台電發生興達電廠天然氣外洩爆炸起火案件台電對外說明他說是因為天然氣管線的法蘭街頭磨損造成外洩但是根據前幾天的媒體報導台電內部有吹哨者 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
251.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
268.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
像媒體檢舉說有許多劣質的中國製的法蘭賣到台灣流入中油跟台電恐怕跟這次興達電廠的爆炸事故是有關請問沈記長您開始做調查了嗎已經交代我的同仁去做了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
268.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
283.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這件事已經開始調查了因為我們以前也查過很多偽造進口證明或者是用來源不明的貨品我們查過有八、九十件所以我們現在這個我們有經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
284.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
300.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以吹哨者很重要吹哨者保護法也非常重要我必須報告沈記長台電的各種更新改建機組工程還有煤炭工程在材料的使用上有很大的問題我質詢過很多次興達電廠只是冰山一角 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
301.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
有更多的弊端等著審計部去挖掘去年9月台灣民眾黨在立法院召開了一場記者會我們揭發了台電大林電廠它的運煤系統改建工程當中大量使用不合格不符合勞動部這個職安署TS標章認證的防爆管配件這一頁我先請您看一下這個就是台電採購的合約書當中框起來的那一段就是上面寫著 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
331.913 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
334.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
管配件的材質必須是可鍛鑄鐵 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
336.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
363.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
或是鍍鋅鋼但是因為沈記長可斷鑄鐵因為在國際上沒有再生產了可能是環保的因素那台電後來也開會就要求說要使用強度更好的一個叫做球末鑄鐵的材質我想這是對的就是你要的東西是缺貨但是你不能往下把標準降下來尤其這個是防爆管的配件所以事實上要使用球末鑄鐵但結果沈記長你請看 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
365.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
387.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
8月6號 治安署到台大大林電廠抽測檢查的結果發現兩大問題第一個問題是台電的大林電廠他現場裝設了申方 蒙利還有正方三家公司的防爆管的配件都出現材質不合格的狀況你看印章對不對 不合格不合格不合格你看到 不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
389.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
406.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這張表我給經濟部前部長郭部長看過他無動於衷這個製造廠商名稱都是台電提供給職安署已經過了一年多這是去年8月6號職安署百般的坦戶到今天沒有開罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
408.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
430.003 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
審計部對於治安署編列的預算他在執行這個防爆器管配件的認證業務但卻沒有辦法確保這個產品是有品質的一致性而且也沒有依法開罰各種堵直行為請問審計部你要不要查送檢查後調查後送檢察院跟移送法班 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
431.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
445.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個組安署啊 既然去查了不合格我們有看到我們會依照委員的那個 我們會去整個調查調查完如果有委員所講的這些問題我們移送我們會移送那個監察案來調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
453.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
479.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那這次的這個抽驗當中還有第二個問題喔政客公司代理的國際大廠叫Appleton這個叫原型接線盒原型接線盒他有驗出這個同一家公司驗出合格跟不合格的這個兩種結果我在這裡要強調不合格的原型接線盒這個是由政客公司提供這個事情不是我的解讀而是台電說的台電說由這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
481.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
502.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這家公司他所提供的政客公司提供的Appleton的這個原型接線盒有不合格的跟有合格的那請這個陳記長繼續看因為同樣標示Appleton的廠牌原型接線盒那為什麼會有合格又有不合格兩種完全不同的結果呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
503.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
524.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我的直覺是有仿冒品參雜其中所以我的辦公室就進一步去要求台電提供材料查驗申請單結果我發現什麼呢不合格的標記為Appleton的這個廠牌的原型接線盒台電事後承認 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
526.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
545.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
是這個承包商叫做現代樂田他的下包廠商叫做成鋼公司他沒有經過台電的器材檢驗自行從興達漁港工程的餘料剩餘的材料取用然後安裝到煤倉工程上 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
548.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
557.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
到目前為止問題還在這裡台電不只是讓這個不合格的仿製的這個防爆管配件他仍然裝設在場區喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
559.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
577.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
而且用盡各種方法拖延改善期限更離譜的喔更離譜的喔他在其他的工程例如這次興達電廠他的燃氣工程繼續採購繼續採購這個申芳跟萌玉這個有被檢查出不合格產品的這個廠商啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
578.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
589.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
沈記長對於如此危害勞工安全的採購弊端你要不要追查要不要請監察院依法處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
590.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
615.302 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
這一個我們以前在查台電這畫面的時候也發現他很多廠商用這種類似的來期待結果你怎麼做你知道啊我們就移送檢查案叫他移送法辦有嗎有啊結果呢結果就他們就相關都那些廠商就被禁止開廠商就被怎麼樣台電啊台電讓這個東西進去放在廠紙裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
616.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
639.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個我們會照委員的意思來處理這個我們也有對接受 因為台電他很多都是外包廠商所以常常都會 外包廠商不是理由 該負責的就要負責台電就是要負責 我今天舉了很多例子這個當然 他要管理好有報告 有資料他當然要做好管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
641.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
643.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這些亂花的錢洪部長竟然說要爭取公務預算歸電 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
661.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
689.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
意思就是要拿納稅人的錢來補回來全民買單但是勞動部明年的預算書沒有規定這筆錢所以我今天要向省紀長確認就業安定基金被濫用的部分你們有把它剔除嗎因為如果你剔除的話勞動部部長必須向當初亂花錢的人追討甚至強制執行我現在今天再跟您確認你有把它剔除嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
690.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
712.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我有把他修正檢列 他要列應收款回來你直接告訴我們 你就是剔除嘛這個就是一個名詞跟一個做法嘛你有沒有剔除我有檢列 他要應收回來沈記長 你如果剔除根據審計法你就是要給他期限追繳啊請問這個期限是多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
712.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
734.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我們要他逐項查明已經發生這麼久了我只問你期限多久我們一直在追蹤他改善的情形沒有期限喔做到任期結束為止那如果你沒有踢足你聽起來我好像沒有踢足有檢列 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
736.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
757.688 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你那個減劣跟剔除 減劣是全額減劣嗎剔除是這樣 剔除是很明確這一個是因為舊服務法 舊業服務法他在這個放在舊業服務法舊業服務法是勞動部的法我要尊重勞動部 勞動部已同意我把它減劣了他說他會直向查明 全額減劣嗎沈縣長我覺得這個有點護航耶這護航勞動部 不會護航他 不會護航他 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
760.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
775.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
所以結果 反正不能讓全民買單嘛 對不對他預算書也不敢嘛 但是這個錢就要追回來啊他如果委員會自己施用當然我們會 如果他沒有追回來我們還是會移送檢查案調查 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
778.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
805.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
沈記長 請問美隆大峽谷你有在關注嗎美隆大峽谷大峽谷有看到內政部國土管理署每年編列了五六千萬去運作所謂國土利用的監測整合資訊網它是透過衛星去判讀是不是有因為稻採砂石或是傾倒廢棄物造成這個國土有變異的地方那這應該是一個科技執法非常有幫助的工具 對嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
807.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
824.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那我請問沈機長現在地方政府問題在哪裡呢地方政府取得這個國土變異點資訊之後耗性的執法有很大的問題那為什麼會這樣說沈機長前幾天我和環保團體一起開會國土署出席的同仁 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
825.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
840.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
當天他們說這個系統當這個系統發現國土有變異點他們就把相關資料交給地方政府主管機關去執行例如美濃大峽谷這個案子是2024年初 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
841.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
859.669 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
一年半前了國土組發現有國土變異的時候就把這些相關資訊給高雄市環保局去執行但事實上卻是今年九月要不是有民意代表去勘查那這件事不會被發掘出來不會被攤出來大家都不會知道所以等於說一整年多從去年到今年 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
860.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
861.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
這個我請他們去了解 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
889.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
903.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
有嗎 已經有了嗎 有進度了嗎這個已經 最近的新聞嘛 他們已經在因為我們一個調查案子啊 都會規劃會整理 會相關的再出動 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
905.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
926.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
審計長你今天答應了我很多事而且這都是你的職責嘛審計部的職責嘛影響國家的財產安全我們都有責任接下來我請教你這個少子化問題這是113年審計部的決算審核報告為了提供優質的生育生養環境減輕家長負擔政府推出0到2歲社區公共托育計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
927.532 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
939.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
但是卻被國發會評為高風險紅燈預警計畫為什麼呢因為實現率太差了113年度第三期跟第四期的實現率只有19.28%以及37.23% |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
945.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
967.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
本來預計要522處公共托育設施結果完成了400多所但是還有35個鄉鎮市區完全沒有托育機構的規劃實在是慘不忍睹我想請教沈記長上個月8月出生台灣出生跟死亡人口數你有概念嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
968.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
976.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
一個是書生8464一個是115226 這邊兩倍了這種人口負成長已經連續20多個月了這麼嚴重的國安危機但是對少子化的預算執行率這麼低 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
987.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1004.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
我們根本覺得政府沒有心要解決這個少子化問題啊難怪人民無感啊沒有生育動力啊沈記長 執行率這麼低喔沈記長 有意願但沒有生育大概有兩種狀況想生 但養不起 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1005.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1022.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
這是一種一種是想生養得起但有生育上的困難那第一種當然靠國家的政策很多幫忙剛剛我們講托育政策啦或是一些補助來處理但是第二種的話就必須訴諸醫療了想生養得起但他有困難生育那就是要這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1023.442 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1047.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
利用人工生殖技術來幫助建立他們這個期待的家庭但是沈記長有很多人一直在等待因為衛福部長期行政怠惰讓很多需求的人困在年久未休年久失休的人工生殖法裡面請問沈記長你還記得你來拜訪的時候你有跟我我們談及這個代孕的這件事情嗎你記得嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1053.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1069.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
台湾社会台湾代理育母政策已经超过30年了我记得你先前来拜会的时候是有正向表达支持但今天我还是要跟沈记长确认两件事第一个您是否支持代孕解禁让代孕法治化 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1069.91 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1085.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我們少子化是很嚴重所以多元的生小孩包括政府現在花了幾萬塊我會把這個整個做一個了解為什麼衛福部把這個案子勾這麼久 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1087.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1104.845 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那就制度設計因為您當天告訴我是您是基本上是支持的那您是否認同應該有相當的明確的這個限制跟配套當然包括採非營利禁止中間抽成限定使用對象完善身心的評估還有這個醫療保障孩子的權益等等等等那這些配套 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1106.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1128.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
去年台大院政治中心陳美洲主任有講戴履母不應該脫鉤條文已經討論多年要一次解決這個重點是在哪裡焦點不該是贊成或反對而是如何訂定完善的管理配套跟契約規範陳記長行政怠惰的時候他該有的職責的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1129.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1150.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
你也是你的責任請問貝提名人就是說如果待運立法通過從審計機關的角度你認為在政府的財務支出跟行政監督上要優先注意哪些風險我想藉助你的專業在我們立法的時候這個會期我們會當作優先法案來處理因為就這些事有相當的一些影響 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1154.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1166.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那些後面的影響全部要把它處理掉我們會對這個案子去查衛福部他做到什麼程度為什麼處處沒有提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1167.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1193.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
國安問題少子化這麼嚴重人工生殖法放了十幾年沒有實質的修改行政怠惰也是審計部可以了解的事情啊對對對審計長我再請問你在野黨有聯署要廢除監察院這是民進黨在野時長期的主張連賴清德總統也說過那如今民進黨也說他們奉陪到底廢除這個監察院那我想請問這個審計長如果 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1196.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1212.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
監察院被廢除你認為審計權要由誰來行使是要將審計權歸到立法院呢還是另設一個獨立機關我想聽聽您的意見這個國際最高審計機關或者世界各國大部分都獨立行 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1213.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1230.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
有在國會也有但是少數美國就是在國會但是像日本新加坡韓國那個華國通通在都獨立出來所以沈記長已經有思考過這個問題了也了解好 謝謝 |