| IVOD_ID |
163531 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163531 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-3-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第25次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第25次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-15T15:03:20+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-15T15:19:10+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:50 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de626273afc0aa4f38e18cf3659852ed25088e117da0b2e7151440e68855abdbf165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
蔡易餘 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:03:20 - 15:19:10 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第25次會議（事由：一、行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢（8月15日）。二、行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢（8月19日）。） |
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謝謝院長那我們是不是有請卓院長以及我們法務部部長麻煩再請卓院長法務部備詢 |
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院長好因為今天的專報是針對打擊詐騙我們針對打詐2.0執行的成效事實上我們也都看到了詐騙尤其是在投資詐騙 |
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大概是現在說這個詐欺犯罪裡面佔了65%強而且台灣的2025有一份民調說有超過72%的人他們表示他們都遭遇過詐騙當然每一個人是否會被詐騙當然又看他每一個人會遇到不同的情境但是大家都很擔心自己遭受詐騙那以及確實 |
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最近因為詐騙然後他可能一輩子的積蓄被騙走造成他沒辦法在之後維持生計甚至有很多我們看到我們很不想看到的一些新聞的一個事件就因此而發生 |
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所以這個打炸這件事我覺得在我們整個行政團隊來說一定是一個很重要的任務所以我相信院長部長在場每一位我們每一位行政團隊的長官甚至到最基層的員警大家都很認真在打炸這個我都相信但是在這麼認真打炸的時候為什麼我們還是沒辦法真正有效的遏止打炸呢 |
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院長我想聽聽看大概這段時間我們的努力來跟我們遇到的一些瓶頸是什麼首先第一個就是每個禮拜行政院政務委員的會議林明星政委都會就那一週整個詐騙案件的案件數跟金額 |
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來做分析跟比較來報告給所有的政務委員了解我們在那邊共同討論這也印證剛剛委員所說的大家實在是很用心在這一塊上面但是打炸的事情是當我們有新的方式出現 |
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詐騙集團也是吹塵出心手段翻新他們的方式也一直在改變而且利用數位化的科技而且用境外的方式而且用不同的年輕族群去從事一些比較低階的詐騙的車手工作讓我們實在是在這個整個唯獨網上產生了相當大工作的能量 |
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189.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這個都是詐騙集團一直發生的從他們鎖定各種不同的特定族群來施以這種從語言方式各方面來加以引誘所以我們要找出潛在的這些被害人加以分析提前告訴他們所以我們從市詐 房詐 城詐 賭詐一直到城詐各方面都分別了很多的工作在做這是我們現在在做的當然有所不及而且我們要大力的趕上 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
190.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那現在法務部也透過打詐釋法再透過跟司法院要將新釋法當中尚有不及之處再把它加強包括刑度包括整個刑罰的太陽等等還有包括陳紹共犯等等都把它結合在一起這個是我們目前在努力的我知道努力的方向還不夠深遠但是我們都把方向給找出來 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
213.731 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
241.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以院長就像我講的剛聽你這一段就如同我講的我相信行政院非常努力一定要把打詐這一塊做出成效給國人看但是看起來就是這些詐騙集團他們有利可圖所以他們就窮盡一些方法甚至說他們只要人在國外然後他們把他們的一些IP都移到國外去會造成我們很多在追查犯罪的時候會產生斷點這個這件事情就很麻煩 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
242.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
259.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以我們現在看到的就是說我們還是在過去我們打詐可能都比較站在加害人就是要詐騙的人我覺得我們有時候要轉一下轉著就說我們要回到被害人到底被害人為什麼被詐騙 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
260.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以從第一步第一步是什麼就是他怎麼接觸到詐騙的人那現在看起來詐騙的人最常用的就是透過社群媒體包括我們的臉書包括IG啦 翠啦甚至後來就把他們引誘到一個LINE的一個群組裡面結果這個群組裡面全部都是在騙他的他自己不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
282.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
302.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
他就陷入了一個被詐騙然後投資詐騙往往越投資越多而且他的方式以前是直接叫你投資他直接誘使你投資甚至他早期還跟你一點矛頭小弟現在可能是先送你一個東西送你一本書 送你一個什麼東西引誘你你進來之後慢慢很多人在旁邊圍攻你讓你以為這個群 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
304.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
325.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個環境裡面是大家都在投資這個正常的行為結果只有你一個是被害人其他都是假的嘛對不對好所以我在這個情境之下我想要請教部長或者是我們速發部就是說在這種情境之下假如我們最常用的我覺得以前最常用的辦案技巧就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
326.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
344.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
有一點叫做這個叫釣魚就是說我事實上跳進去我就是要我就是要破獲這樣的一個集團但是我進去後比如我進入這樣一個line的一個群組後我有辦法因為在這個群組裡面然後把他們後面整批人揪出來嗎依現在的科技我們做得到嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
347.402 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
367.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
謝謝那個委員我想我們現在檢警調對這一種的包括電信網路的一個擦漆像這一種的在網路上我們有那個警察巡我們有巡邏我們有那個各大系統就負責是看來一個社群網站社群的一個軟體媒體我們都有在做一個巡邏都沒有分工 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
368.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
382.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有巡邏但是我們如果已經巡邏到我們已經進入了好我們先看到一個假的臉書的一個訊息讓我們接觸到然後他就跟我們開始我們跟他對話對話完他叫我們加入進入這個LINE的一個群組 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
383.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
409.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 我都進去了 那我抓得到他嗎我想這個每個個案都不同啦其實從這個網路上我們可以試著去抓得到我也知道這個成功率不是那麼大 這很辛苦我們這部分最好是用即時的一個下架我想這部分整個一個速發部這部分會跟社群軟體的一個公司他們業者再做一個下架的通知部長 下架是一塊事實上我也就是要問速發部啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
410.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
434.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
那既然就是有這樣的一個群組那既然這個群組他一定有一個他的末端那這個末端的人我們沒辦法掌握嗎報告委員通常做法是這樣我們最好是希望在源頭就在他在廣告登出來的時候這個詐騙廣告我們就能夠發現把它下架所以不要讓民眾進入這個詐騙廣告再進入私人群組因為一旦進入私人群組要抓就比較困難 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
435.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
460.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
所以在源頭我們用AI用網路詐騙通報查詢網去發現詐騙廣告目前我們用這種方式已經使得投資詐騙廣告下降了九成九也就是說過去一個月七萬八千多件現在剩下七百多件OK 但是速發部我想我要跟部長說的就是說你請他下架但是民眾是覺得說既然有源頭為什麼抓不到 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
461.61 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
479.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
跟委員報告他有下單啊 他有去買廣告啊我想這個是全方位的委員關心的這是一個查緝的一個方向那我想很多的切入口我們包括洗錢的那一部分譬如說因為我們現在臺灣檢署 各地檢署我們現在也跟那個金融機構金融去簽MOU |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
480.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
507.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那這個1000MOU就是從那個可疑賬戶的資金往來去勾結用大數據AI的去分析去勾結出來所以我們最近有謝文給我今天有這個機會講就譬如說台北地球有一個展金專案也就是一個郵局提供的這個可疑賬戶而破獲了一個一個非常龐大的一個一個詐團那這個被害人高達5000多個那這個破獲的這個被騙金的高達150幾億那這個壓了50幾個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
510.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
524.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那所以這一件就有一個非常的棒的另外台中地檢也有透過那個土地營養提供的可依帳戶的這些來勾結出來的用帳戶來抓來勾結這件事很重要這個是MOU的對 部長因為我時間有限我有設定幾個問題啦所以我沒辦法給你我們就知道說從 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
529.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
553.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這個社群媒體來揪出詐團這是一個方式第二個就是說因為事實上今天好多委員都有去講到我們訂了這個詐欺犯罪的一個防治條例47條你只要繳交犯罪所得的話你可以減薪執行那過去就變得說很多法院他們在認定上他們認為繳交犯罪所得是以他的報酬 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
555.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
583.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那我舉一個例子 我現在就舉一個例子假如有詐騙集團騙了對我騙了一千萬我被詐騙集團騙了一千萬那車手勒就是我拿 但是我被騙一千萬是好幾次其中一個車手其中一個車手從我這裡經手了一百萬我一百萬給他那這個車手跟詐團拿到了十萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
585.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
602.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我想請教部長 部長這讓你回答那這一個車手他是要繳交10萬塊100萬還是1000萬他就可以試用47條所以這個是非常不合理所以這次那個最高法院那個刑事大法院他是採用個人的報酬說就10萬塊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
603.445 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
622.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
事實上他被騙的金額那個被害人被騙的說明就是一千萬甚至一億所以我們認為是要以被害人的損害而說交出的部長我看起來最高法院大法庭還是這樣過去的法官他就用十萬塊少數幾個他用少數的他就用十萬塊這個大法庭是把他拉到了一百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
623.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
644.506 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
就是以這個車手他經手的大法庭是少數說是個人報酬說個人報酬是10萬塊有的法官是會用100萬有的法官會用100萬就是以這個車手實際處理的所以我們最近有提出修法我們認為還是要站在被害人的觀點他的損失是1000萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
645.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
656.196 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
他的損失是1000萬所以他應該要負責這一千萬來換取他的減刑但是我覺得這個就是會卡在說這個車手到底實際上支出了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
659.106 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
683.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
車手實際獲得什麼所以我在講這個就是說我們要站在被害人的觀點去思考這件事情所以我在舉很多個案很多個案的一個產生因為我遇到了很多來跟我說曾經他遇到詐騙警察我請他去警察提告他也去提告了他就是真的去警局提告了過了兩個月後他接到一個不起訴書 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
685.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
702.788 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
人非常的沮喪說我被詐騙那我去提告去提告誰去提告那個假帳號的提供人結果後來是不起訴書我把這個不起訴書列出列出來了他不起訴的原因是什麼他說因為你告這個詐騙這個帳號的提供人他這個帳號騙了好幾個人前面的人已經告了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
713.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
731.236 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
前面的人 前面被害者已經告了你在後面告前面那部分已經告了也判完了所以你跟他是一個行為他是同一個提供賬號的行為所以你後面去告你就變成拿到不起訴書部長你覺得這件事合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
733.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
754.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
這是洗錢方式吧他那個提供的那個165提供的那個現在是提供那個是在21條吧應該是在洗錢法21條的一個事情最近一個修法就是要提供三次最早的時候現在修法就是要因為現在其實沒有修法之前因為地檢署可能大部分檢察官就是認為他這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
757.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
782.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
沒辦法證明他直接的故意所以會不起訴書書員檢察官是跟他說因為是同一行為啦因為他就一個提供賬號行為嘛然後有十個人受騙嘛那前面的部分因為九個人有去提告已經判完了他也已經在關了所以你是後面去告的人你是後面去告的人所以你這個已經被前面已經判完了你後面去告他就給你一個不起訴書那這件事影響到了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
783.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
803.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這件事還有後續因為我就跟他說好沒關係那你至少要告民事對那個民事是有184的那個你至少要告民事就侵權行為嘛至少民事你要取得對他的一個債權憑證未來你還是可以把追索回來嘛結果他就去適用了詐欺犯罪第54條第54條說如果你因為詐欺你請求損害賠償的時候你可以暫免繳償判費 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
808.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
835.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
結果法院呢 這個法院的一個民事裁定說 抱歉 因為你之前那一份是不起訴書所以你不是用免繳裁判費 部長你會覺得這樣聽聽就 哇 這很不準怎麼會這樣 一個被詐騙的被害人 他去尋求他的司法救濟的時候 層層受阻啦很不準所以部長 報告委員 行政院實在不應該對個案的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
837.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
864.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
起訴不起訴或判決來多加揣測的意見但是我是希望這樣的意見能夠讓司法院能夠理解怎麼樣幫助行政院來完成打詐行為司法院應該要我這個因為我都各自都把它蓋住了但是這個不是只有這一個個案是這樣的狀況的情況之下法院的統一的做法會採取這樣所以我們今天我覺得我們在這裡我們除了去 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
865.623 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
879.317 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
講說現在台灣打詐的問題很嚴重我覺得這樣是不夠的因為我們這裡代表立法院你們是行政機關我們應該要立更多法律出來對這個打詐有實際的一個效果 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
880.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
906.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這是我們的責任我現在再講一個例子以被害人來出發的話我們看現在有很多破獲的說包括第三方支付他可能涉及幫打詐洗錢最近破獲好多那也因為從第三方支付抓到金流了也知道詐騙集團的部分人是誰了抓到這些部分人了那行政機關 法務部有告知這些被害人 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
907.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
924.756 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
告訴任何一個人說你的這個案件我抓到源頭了有告訴他們嗎沒有這就是我覺得我們做的不好的地方應該要告訴他們因為他們之後還有來民事求償的這個權利我們至少這一塊既然他都跟我們來提出 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
945.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
947.46 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好 謝謝蔡議員的質詢 謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢 謝謝 |