| IVOD_ID |
163527 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163527 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-15 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
院會-11-3-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第25次會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
25 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
院會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第25次會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-15T12:25:17+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-15T12:40:51+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:34 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/feafe23bd7168de62be46332e07a849a18cf3659852ed250fb52be572812adaf3d997d3b3f5f9fd45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
鍾佳濱 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:25:17 - 12:40:51 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-15T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第25次會議（事由：一、行政院院長提出「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領2.0執行成效」專案報告並備質詢（8月15日）。二、行政院院長提出「全額撥付114年度對地方政府之一般性補助款及原住民族地區基本設施維持費等相關事宜」專案報告並備質詢（8月19日）。） |
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嘉賓委員質詢 張志倫委員請準備主席 在場委員先進列席的政務機關上官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們卓院長以及先邀請法務部部長跟金管會彭主委麻煩請卓院長 法務部金管會備詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
36.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
60.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
總委員好院長好 部長好 主委好今天上午許多委員都關切國人最痛恨的打債來質詢這也是今天院長的專報就這麼巧在今天有一個2025年的亞洲詐騙報告當中提到亞洲14個國家或地區院長你覺得哪些國家的詐騙最頻繁 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
63.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
89.038 |
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抱歉我倒沒有看到這個內容好 香港跟泰國被詐騙的頻率最頻繁但是台灣有高達七成的民眾在過去一年前曾經遭遇過詐騙所以可以理解為什麼民眾對於詐騙這麼深惡痛絕因為很多人都有類似的經驗結果中國的網路也不遑多讓他們說詐騙猖獗是因為A 騙子太多還是B 傻子太多院長你覺得呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
91.124 |
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107.155 |
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我想這是一個網路上他們在一種以笑虐的方式來進行但是我們嚴肅來看待往下看那請教法務部曾部長你認為引發竊盜的主要原因是因為受害人屬於防範他的財務還是贓物因為容易脫手變現引發了竊盜您的經驗 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
109.905 |
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126.674 |
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那個犯罪的類型很多應該不限於這兩種吧不限於這兩種但是有人說鼓勵竊盜是因為髒物很好脫手啊如果髒物賣不掉他偷了也沒用往下看所以呢請教彭主委你認為詐欺超越竊盜成為犯罪大宗的原因有可能是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
130.632 |
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155.669 |
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直接提示因為網路交易已經取代了當面交付虛擬資產取代了實體貨幣以前你偷要偷鈔票偷金銀珠寶還要囂張還要變現因此現在虛擬貨幣來無影去無蹤而且以前要到你身上爬現在不用直接在網路上你按個鍵網路就交易了這是詐騙的原因好我們往下看所以有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
156.403 |
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168.306 |
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最近有幾件事情讓我們看到了第一個是有台灣有超過4家業者成立第三方支付的工會彭主委這是一個正面的一個訊息雖然我知道第三方支付不是您的業館 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
170 |
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191.547 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
是 當然任何一個工會它有自律那當然會比沒有工會好很多好 那另外也要請部長來看一下我們上週才會到國泰世華跟華南銀行去實際考察他們銀行的零貴主詐跟他們跟警方配合辦案的情況結果調查檢報說假三資可以詐騙很多錢那我們來看一下詐騙了多少錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
192.642 |
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213.311 |
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第三方支付洗錢高達50億結果裁罰30萬民眾說太輕了院長你會不會覺得民眾會這樣感覺洗錢洗那麼多對不對那個案子部長應該瞭解那調查局辦了結果裁罰30萬速發部裁罰30萬院長你覺得什麼原因民眾什麼感覺 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
214.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
234.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
不成比例但是往往我們忽略一點因為我們目前看到的洗錢防止法不管是第8條還是第13條它都是行政法都是程序上對這些參與洗錢的業者在他的刑事司法審理之前行政機關先祭出的華凡 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.731 |
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257.301 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那滑環呢?以地方開放支付來講是多少?五萬到五百萬啊相較到洗錢金額當然是不成比例為什麼?院長要跟您說明我們在宣傳打造的時候為什麼民眾還是這樣的錯覺?因為我們在新聞媒體呈現出來的是龐大的洗錢金額跟少少的行政滑環事實上最重要的是哪一個部分?後面這個部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
258.121 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
259.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
像這樣的一個刑罰的處罰 是不是要等到法院審理完才能確定 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
277.442 |
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305.105 |
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這一定要判決 一定要判決 占卜確定院長 了解原因了沒有我聽了很多委員的質詢 很多民眾的抱怨哎呀 胖子太輕了啦為什麼認為胖子太輕我要生五十歲 要活五十萬其實這是一個誤解因為行政裁罰先 後面的司法審理刑罰在後但是你認為目前是不是普遍人民認為就算刑罰判了也不夠院長你的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
306.075 |
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333.673 |
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行動應該調整合理而且他的這個判決的時間也應該速審速決好但是儘管如此司法院的判決我們尊重也期待但是呢我們還是行政局外可以有所作為舉例來講我曾經問過彭主委類似這樣的問題其實詐團他們都利用人頭去開戶但是在現在的銀行金融機構不管你是證券戶要開交割戶到銀行要KYC你銀行自己本身自然能開戶也要KYC |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
334.253 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
352.609 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
甚至呢 你是電子支付業者 這是金管會管的也要KYC KYC就認識你的客戶只要你臨櫃辦理 大概要很難用人頭辦 為什麼因為有一個叫財軍資訊公司的如果你拿人頭來辦他只要一查你這個名字 以前申請帳號的行動電話跟你現在不同一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
353.63 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
381.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
為什麼行動電話不同因為詐團用人頭啊就會叫他用同一支行動電話比較好控制因此跟原來的那個人頭的留存的電話號碼就不一樣了就抓到了但是目前第三方置物業者跟虛幣交易所他們沒有這樣的被要求在開戶的時候沒有辦法透過財經資訊公司去自行因為財經資訊公司會告訴原來的用戶告訴宗嘉斌我發一個OTP給你你是不是來開戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
382.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
411.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
沒有這個查核院長了解了那可不可以請彭主委說那為什麼你認為財經資訊公司沒有辦法對於三資跟虛幣交易所來進行這樣的照會這也是我們在這一次打造專法在檢討修法的時候比如說我們有個同業照會機制這很重要是那怎麼辦因為他不同業所以我們也提出了修法建議在這次裡面同業照會要誰來修法來請我們劉世芳部長跟我們的黃燕蘭黃部長因為這就是他們的業務了請 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
414.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
441.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
時間暫停 老闆請院長 因為打詐非常繁瑣希望透過您來聽我們質詢了解到各部會的合作很重要剛剛金管會要管 法務部要罰但是法要修 修哪一個法修詐欺犯罪危害防治條例這個是哪個部會主管的 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
443.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
467.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
沒有 很多部會一起處管但是主責是內政部有內政部 法務部 還有金管會金管會提出要修法請問院長您覺得哪個部要趕快提出來哪個部哪個部要趕快提出 炸房條例要修改第八條要把其中的金融機構以及提供虛擬資產服務事業或人員也要納入照會的機制是不是請行政院趕快提出修法法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
469.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
498.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
報告委員其實這個炸房條例有若干條文現在已經在內政委員會在討論現在的立法院的內政委會那您所提到的第8條如果要增刪下去的話我們要按照行政程序或按照立法程序來提出來好 那麼為什麼請黃部長來因為剛剛講的目前洗錢最多的就是第三方支付的假冒第三方支付業者黃部長是不是第三方支付是不是住發部管的第三方支付我們現在納管的 是的好 那我們來看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
499.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
518.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
當我們要去透過這些洗錢的途徑防止詐騙來的金額逃竄無法追回我們有很多動作要做政府有在執行防詐措施但是在第一線不管是速發部在監看網路網頁的人還是我們內政部警政署第一線的員警他們往往要公文的層層覺醒 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
519.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
538.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因此怕錯過時效如果以基層來講如果沒有獎勵他幹嘛做那麼多的事情那另外公務員執行這些書發部的黃部長有沒有我們同仁跟你說當他們要執行業務的時候也擔心被業者提告有沒有難免會有這樣的擔心 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
538.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
567.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那我要告訴院長 問題出在哪裡我們炸房條例第38條當我們要協助打炸的時候這些金融機構 網路廣告平台第三方住業者 電商業者他可以有一個免責條款免除他業務上因所得秘密他來配合檢警調偵辦他有一個免責條款所以業者可以說 我提供給警方辦我不用擔心被什麼 被客戶告所以有這個免責條款但是公務員沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
568.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
591.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
公務員沒有類似的設計所以速發部來講他主管的業務當中因為是管網路那麼動不動如果說配合辦案萬一給這些平台業者告公務員受不了院長要不要支持我們透過修法也讓公務員有這個機制讓他可以配合檢警調進行相關詐騙的防詐賭詐以及這些相關的偵辦作為我一向主張 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
593.373 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
619.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
公務人員在從事任何保障人民權利的時候跟自己的業務要用積極的方向來做如果他願意積極來做一些事情我們在刻意他重責顯然是不宜的所以如果到這個方向來做我們從這裡做合理的調整我覺得是好的方式那就請指示行政院相關的一個樣的一個免責的一個保障要有好其實我們目前呢防止詐騙基層員警很重要其中有一個叫做165專案165專線 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
622.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
640.118 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
部長 劉部長這是一個任務編組還是一個常態編制現在是一個任務編組是的那麼這些人的技工嘉獎各種的續獎都是要回到原機關辦理所以我們希望說行政院能夠協助這些辦案有功的人員能夠得到積極的鼓勵好不好 院長要不要支持他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
641.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
662.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
我請店長申報整合出來到底這個時候怎麼樣來處理對這些第一線很辛苦的員警們是最佳的鼓勵我們願意朝這個方向即刻來謝謝院長的肯定來我們今天看了這個表看了很多次了行政院認為說打詐有成趨勢是往下沒有錯但是我們看到這個紅線是詐騙金額那個那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
667.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
694.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
條塊是詐騙的案件量我們注意到在2014年的2月非常有效急速下降那個時候是因為我們社群的網路平台實施了廣告實名制這也因為法令通過之後我們速發部動手了詐團受到阻礙但是他馬上就找到對策所以案件又上升了所以長期看趨勢是下滑但是是有高有低就看我們有沒有持續的提出有效的防詐作為院長你說對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
696.072 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
707.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
要抱持這一橫嗎報告委員這個圖表我們每一週的行政院的政務委員的政務會議林明新政委都會每個禮拜提出一個數字我只要求他 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
708.171 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
726.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第一個不能往上升這要努力了解您剛剛說了很多次了我的意思是說不能只靠一朝一世因為詐團的手法千變萬化要持之以恆對不對所以持之以恆要怎麼辦我們往下看現在在我們刑事警察局底下要設一個詐欺犯罪防治中心他要推動他的組織法制化 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
727.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
755.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
但是要推動組織法治化在我們行政院要先行的共識要許到相關主管局的同意請問劉部長是不是我們行政院我們內政部這個刑事警察局的已經得到行政院內部的同意了是的 我們在討論的過程當中行政院的包括政務委員他們覺得說165把它法治化是一個非常可行的方向好 院長法治化之後行政院還要送到考試院是不是院長可以承諾9月底之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
756.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
776.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
完成兩院的會嫌把這個法制化工作完成我要跟內政部好好談法制化的功用是在提升它整體的效率跟所有在第一線工作同仁的一個工作上的尊重如果這兩個要同時達到要求的目標我才願意這樣做的考慮所以9月底前有沒有把握 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
777.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
798.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們會就內容來討論我們來研擬我是因為已經到院長辦公室了到行政院了我們希望後續能夠得我昨天也問過考試院全學部他們也是全力支持但是為什麼會有要這樣詢問呢因為我們看一下因為刑事警察局過去內部有37個內部單位有時候被質疑說機關龐雜需要整併因此我們也請提醒我們內政部跟行政院 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
799.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
824.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
根據中央行政機關組織基礎法第十條任務性已經完成或政策改變或者業務功能萎縮或重疊者要予診病所以當我們新設詐房中心的同時也要注意到刑事警察局內部這些分支機關的效能請一併做出檢討好不好好的謝謝那怎麼檢討呢其實我就提一個例子讓你們知道一下其實我們看到國民參與審判制度就是所謂俗稱國民法官法 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
825.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
854.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他其實在當時五年前推動的時候他其實就很清楚的設定每年要提取民國報告而且執行滿六年之後要整個的通盤檢討如果有效繼續推如果效益不彰他就把它拿掉所以在我們立法的時候就把這樣的檢討機制放進去所以是不是也請行政院注意到我們推動打詐要搶求效率成如剛剛院長所說的要有效我們來實施檢討好不好好的好所以最後我們這邊就提出了 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
854.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
878.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
有關於競速推動對不起 上一頁刑事警察局的這個詐欺犯罪防治中心的組織法之外也請你們行政院參照國民參與審判制度的規則對於一個成效跟評估把這個辦法考評法定出來我一方面希望促成你們的成立二方面也責成行政院要經常的查核他們的成效院長可以嗎謝謝委員 這個建議很寶貴 謝謝好 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
881.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
903.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
最後我就把今天對行政院提出的打詐的質詢希望對這些事項提出有關於詐欺犯罪危害防治條例的修正相關辦法有效打擊詐欺犯罪第一提供跨業照會的法據這在詐謗法當中要去修改第二行政機關參考免責條款的設計提供公務員保障的機制以及給予第一線基層及165專線員警能夠讓他們領到防詐的獎勵最後請競速 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
909.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
926.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
推動警政署刑事警察局詐欺犯罪防治中心組織法制化並比照國民參與審判制度訂定成效評估相關法律法案辦法以利後續的組織整併真相院長您接受嗎我請內政部詳細的言語我們來處理謝謝院長謝謝部長兩位部長謝謝宗嘉斌委員質詢也謝謝主委長相關部會首長的備詢 |