| IVOD_ID |
163487 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163487 |
| 日期 |
2025-08-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-24 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
24 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-08-14T10:04:02+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-08-14T10:21:45+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ced7f9f61571ec90f149f2db7e2ca2be6bf3365bfe6dc7a9ae818901e71e46d6ddaa78d60d08baa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:04:02 - 10:21:45 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-08-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處人事長、中央選舉委員會主任委員、法務部廉政署署長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「政務人員應否及如何遵守行政中立原則、行政機關於選舉罷免期間應為如何之宣導與落實」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員邱志偉等21人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「公務人員考績法第十二條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員范雲等17人擬具「公務人員考績法第三條、第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案」案。
三、併案審查（一）委員傅崐萁等25人、（二）委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案。
【僅進行詢答】
【8月13日及14日兩天一次會】） |
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其實國家不是要有一流的公務人員這個國家才會進步這個國家如果沒有一流的立法委員這個國家才是會完蛋那我想我要來就教一下那個李主委就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
27.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
42.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
八二三要公投嘛那公投呢那當然就是說這個核三要不要去重啟在整個公投法裡面的規定因為兩位都是法學專家我想來就教就是說其實在我們核管法有規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
43.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
67.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
立法院剛通過的核管法裡面講說這個核電廠主管機關認為安全無虞的話他可以啟動這個研議立法院剛通過這個核管法然後接下來立法院就提出一個公投這當然是一個複決性的一個公投公投是沒有的東西我要來把它創製那有的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
69.158 |
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87.19 |
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我不喜歡 我要把它給否決掉就是這兩個東西嘛 創製跟覆決嘛那這一次啊 河山研議啊它是一個覆決性的一個公投就是說行政部門認為 河山你把他除役了那我要來發動民意來告訴你政府說我要繼續讓他這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
89.584 |
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116.561 |
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運轉下去那到最後他公投的主文也是講說經主管機關同意所以這個了不起最大的一個意義我不能公投當然是一個補充性的一個制度我也不否定說這個發動這個河山研議的一個公投他有任何違法的地方畢竟立法院所提出的一個案子嘛他了不起啊他只是在再次的確認說問問老百姓河山要不要研議但問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
118.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
124.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
為什麼問題來了 43年前 國民黨在執政的時候那個年代 你就知道有一個政府 把蘭嶼當成一個核廢料的一個暫時儲存場一放 放了這四十幾年 現在有10萬277桶也不知道要去哪裡 政府就開始說 不然我們來立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
142.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
立法說 我們來種核廢料 最終處成長看要不要放大塊給地方去做公投那政府就開始選址啦一次要選兩個 當初選很多人選選之後 政府現在選到達人鄉 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
188.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
跟金門金門你要發動地方你要這個地方上你要放核廢料你當一個核廢料的最終處置場的話要經過地方同意金門縣政府我就不可以給你發動地方公投所以你拿他沒辦法台東更好玩了台東他更厲害了我就不要給他制定地方公投條例所以台東縣他也沒有公投沒有法源沒有法源 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
189.909 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
215.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
好了兩位法學專家你試著去把它想想看核廢料尤其是低階的核廢料你要放在什麼地方都必須要地方來做公投那一個核電廠那你讓他研議以後每天去製造新的核廢料出來你跟他說地方都不能表達意見這對嗎能源政策要不要選擇 我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
218.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
226.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
全民可以來表達意見 可是要把他放到別人的家裡面主委你有沒有覺得這怪怪的嘛你如果放在你婚禮帳簿上 你也會避免的我看 國民黨也吃了很多禮物啊在台東那裡 竹蘭那裡 要把它放在那裡 只有本社長而已他就說這叫做環境正義 我事實抵抗本社長也沒辦法做 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
243.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
265.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
本地呢 要把蘭嶼的核廢料 要給錢義 花蓮 秀林鄉部分黨派 小美巡出來示警 反對高津 也出來反對 只要要去那做地質鑽探準備要說看那裡有設立做核電廠 那個核廢料的第一階核廢料的儲存廠而已 大家都反對啦 現在來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
268.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
286.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
現在剛才說要把我們放大 核三長要繼續來研議繼續研議代表什麼意思繼續生產 每天生產核廢料嘛核廢料你要放一堆去這部分我們不想 不知道要怎麼處理就是說低階核廢料要放什麼地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
287.199 |
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301.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
要地方商來同意那生產核廢料在哪一個縣市生產核廢料不需要地方來同意你有沒有覺得這個我們在整個公投法的法源裡面有所疏漏的地方請教兩位好 謝謝委員的指教 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
319.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那這個有關於低階核廢料的處置那最終的這個場所必須是經過地方性來做公民投票來作為決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.276 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
346.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那剛剛委員所提到的這個問題在現行的公投法上面在公投法上面有沒有一些準用解釋的空間因為以前並沒有發生這樣子的案例那委員提出來之後我們會針對這個問題在會內會進行研究如果有具體個案的時候也會經過委員會的審議之後我們會做成一個決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
347.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
372.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
普通啊 一個公道出來 日本人當然現在立法權膨脹這個以現在的政治情勢是必然啦人家在野黨本來加起來人數比較多他不膨脹 他又不是呆子 他當然要膨脹但問題就是說啊 很多涉及到啊整個公共議題的時候啊 太草率了你像比如說對地方衝擊到的 他沒有辦法表達聲音只要立法院提出來的公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
374.102 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
375.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
就像這個四國衛聯你如果去看其他的國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
380.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
404.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他們在做公道,你說跟國際醫治比高,水數四年到八年,那完全公道美國加州才要一年,我們呢,這案子,四個月,四個月受影響的居民,或者說這一些核安的專家,或者環保的團體他都沒有辦法來參與這樣的一個程序,我覺得這個可惜的地方那本時呢,現在我都把他丟大邊,我來講一個故事給你聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
407.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
430.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
1965年台電開始在台灣各地要去選址然後呢1971年石門鄉合一廠取得許可1985年河山廠兩部機組運轉後南北六部機組全數到位1996年我們開始在找合約要最終的一個處置的一個場所找尋境外地點我們就跟北韓提出合作的一個意願 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
431.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
439.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
結果呢 南韓知道之後 招來台電跟我們抗議就是1997年南韓反對 然後到台電大樓進行抗議那反對台電跟北韓簽訂輸出核廢料到朝鮮半島的一個密約1996年台東大武的大武達人 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
453.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
475.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
為核廢料處置候選的長職風聲一個傳出之後 夭壽的地方大家就反對議員說 你政府欠50億就要把我們的環境都破壞掉了台東就跟你反對了到現在呢 台東就跟你講 我這裡發電管工啦我這裡有機農業啦 所以你們都不要跟我來啦好 核廢料就完全沒有辦法有任何地方去啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
479.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
505.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
金門也一樣啦 烏丘 金門關鍵戶就是說我就不可以跟你辦公道啦你有地方性公投又怎麼樣你有法院 地方政府我就是不辦所以啊 在2006年 低放射性的廢棄物追蹤處置設置的條例在立法院刪除通過2008年 經濟部開始去選址2009年呢 排灣族的一個反核的宣言就出來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
531.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
不要一直記啦 我要講到最後2009年喔這個選址的報告出爐以後呢那個就真的非常非常的一個好玩啦就是說呢這個你把達仁鄉跟澎湖縣的一個望安的冬季雨為候選的一個場址啊排灣族啊 在台東的部分啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
531.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
536.808 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他就去連結我們 因為跟民眾熱情 跟台灣人都在做會海島河市那個 他說 多可怕的想法你們竟然想用50億購買這片土地 只為了丟棄你們自己製造出來沒有辦法處理的核廢料只為了將那些危害你們生命有害物質 丟得離你們越遠越好 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
574.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
你們卻不在乎原住民就講啦這裡是我們的家園喔是我的族人世世代代安身立命之所在你們做決定之前有問過我們嗎同樣的要把核廢料放在地方上不應該別人來幫要放在那個地方的居民來做決定 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
575.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
594.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
核廢料要放大堆 要問當地的居民何況是你要到當地去生產核廢料 只因為在別的地方我們要來享受這樣的一個電力總之我們大家說我們酒酒的喔 我們酒酒的來給它公投總之給它放大檳榔就好 給它通今天他們要把它放大台檔 國民黨反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
600.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
616.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
民眾黨也反對 今天他們要放大花蓮國民黨反對 民眾黨也會反對這就是目前的一個政治嘛然後呢 那個宣言裡面這樣講 我再把它念完他說 這是我的家幫啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
618.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
635.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不容你們任意的侵犯啊你們沒有資格問我為何拒絕核廢料因為那是我天生的權利啊那是我生存的地方啊這是多年啊 2000多年啊那 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
637.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
664.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
2011年經濟部選址條例公選出來的合肥的場所選址以後呢他們說要50億做回饋金啊澎湖因為作為選委員自然保留區啊不被資格達仁鄉說要變成唯一村候選的場址但是要有兩個啊所以這個就一個個槓掉了2012年經濟部又公告達仁鄉跟金門烏丘地方反對沒有辦法進行下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
665.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
693.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那就開始喔 重頭戲來啊2012年 台電傳出要在太魯閣國家公園去探勘4月27號 4月12號 蕭美琴 現在副總統開記者會 掌握秀林鄉作為核廢料最終處置的探勘每次要探勘而已 蕭美琴都要講完之後 大家都反對高進 宿美 帶隊去 大家都反對台電說啊 我們自己研究而已啦研究而已啦 要研究看有沒有效 這樣沒而已啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
696.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
709.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
2013年,民間反核大遊行,那個前行政議員叫做江怡樺,她說選址很困難的,推動民間官方核廢料處置的協商平台,大家來協商啦,說大家來協商啦。一個協商出來之後,2014年,藍瑜, |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
715.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
736.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
北海岸 航村團體跟相關的環境團體發表聯合聲明退出平台 不用跟你說了啦如果核廢料真的可以在技術上可以安安穩穩 毫無顧慮那麼 何不讓台灣依據科學地質條件選出所有可能安全的場子不要再以低人口密度為選址的標準啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
737.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
758.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
沒計較你說那安全用用電比例節電效率來作為選擇的一個依據然後呢來迫使大家來思考用電跟承擔核廢料的辛酸他說要創一個共同承擔的設計的一個制度所以我要跟兩位法律專家說的就是說823這個公投源自於對於 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
765.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
767.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
大家對科學的不信任 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
768.476 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
796.693 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
大家對政府的制度的不信任大家對環境正義的一個要求然後呢對公民知情參與否決的一個要求就是說我們這個很可笑啦很可笑啦所以我要建議主委就是說實在因為這個河山如果重啟以後任何一座核電廠一重啟以後就開始生產核廢料沒有地方去 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
797.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
805.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
核廢料就一直放在那個地方高階的不要告訴我們的老百姓說我們有地方去我們連低階的到現在難於 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
808.641 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
813.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
十萬 兩百七十七趟合一 四萬幾趟合二長 五萬趟 還要六萬趟加加這樣 屢屢刻刻有這麼多我們現在都沒有辦法處理然後我們讓高階的有的人說 那沒關係啊 甘氏儲存場給他蓋下去就好了郭文貴說我這麼傷心喔 為什麼要蓋到河山啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
834.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
862.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
潘朵拉的盒子一打開以後我非常擔心接下來就是合一接下來就是合二大家願意承擔那沒關係但是我要求主委的就是說既然低階核廢料都要地方公投那生產高階又沒有辦法放到其他的地方去變相把高階永遠放在繼續運轉的核自驗場的所在地這樣不用公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
863.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
864.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主委 我這樣說合理吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
866.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
894.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
謝謝委員那中選會辦理各項的公投包括地方性的這個公投由地方來辦理都必須要有法源的根據所以說剛才委員所講的這個公投如果如果要辦的時候是不是在公投法裡面應該要有固定的規定這是第一點第二點第二點就是說核三的問題其實核能的問題是 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
895.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
914.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
社會大家非常關心正反的意見都有因此會有所謂的公投程序要來進行那我們進行這個公投的程序就是要讓正反雙方都能夠充分的來表達他們的意見去爭取社會的認同 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
915.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
925.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
所以說我們這回8月23號的河山公投最後一場的電視意見說明會就在明天晚上7點我幫你做一個公告明天可以7點在華視的頻道我們歡迎所有的民眾大家能夠踴躍的來收看你算在幫我捧場就對了來 那個廳長 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
939.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
967.555 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我本席剛談這一些我不曉得你有沒有所感就是說我們法律人常常在講說舉輕足以民眾低階核廢料要地方來公投要問過地方的同意那你生產高階核廢料難道你放的都不行了要來這邊製造高階 什麼叫做高階就是高輻射嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
969.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
976.448 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
低階就是低輻射嘛 有毒的物質嘛你給人家說 那有的變卵的 說到天花亂墜 說核胃料沒有毒那是很空 你知不知道他不知道我們核胃料的湯 一湯五十五加侖五十五加侖喔 不是用湯喔 裡面還有水泥 跟空氣喔不是空氣就好喔 跟放下去 放在土底喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
994.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1010.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你看看蘭嶼放在那裡 那個石門地區那邊三邊都沙 一邊都海那當年要收 當年準備要海拋後來是因為倫敦公約禁止了 我們也不敢去海拋結果放到現在十萬幾桶 它不是放 它要放在地下 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1011.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1035.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
人要去賣 我去兩座人要去賣 你要請輻射醫啊現在在廣島北陸 跟他說荷威拉都沒有危險 騙人家講什麼小朋友所以 以法律人的看法我想就教你的意見就是說低階 需要地方的民眾來同意高階 尤其是生產的 你說都不用地方同意可能嗎 合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1041.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1059.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
跟委員報告一下 委員對於法律的認知對舉重與民輕舉輕一重的內涵闡述得非常的清楚但是我在這邊不太適合表達我任何的意見但是對剛剛委員的說明 我對委員的指教感到佩服有同感啦 明天再準時收看 謝謝 |