| IVOD_ID |
163187 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163187 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
21 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-17T10:56:53+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-17T11:16:58+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:05 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1404c3f0fc5b98575e0e7cfcc7a796557e529aa6299d4c223c22ec92c82f31c39f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:56:53 - 11:16:58 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-17T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、勞動部部長、財政部部長、農業部針對「因應嚴重災情、緊急重大事件，醫療院所承擔救護量能困境及因應台美關稅談判對台灣食品安全相關影響」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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謝謝主席主席你剛剛講了14分鐘好謝謝我請邱部長部長請部長是今天大家質詢很多台師大女足球隊的這個被教練周台英這樣強迫抽血不得退出的這一些這個事件是的是那 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
31.445 |
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50.267 |
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第一時間台師大可能違反研究倫理的這個案子你們的林靜儀次長很厲害馬上說這件事件的主角應該負責的是教育部不是衛福部依照人體研究法的確是這樣子沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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75.537 |
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然後接下來呢次長又說他個人的意見是說要關注利害關係權利不對等的狀況是非常重要的所以要特別注意這個倫理這樣子受試者應該要有明確的知情同意權不可以在被脅迫的狀況下為之而且要隨時退出了權利好 話講得這麼好聽然後這樣講了以後好像 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
78.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
80.539 |
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我就覺得說難道衛福部完全都沒有任何一丁點需要檢討的地方嗎這個事情完全跟衛福部都沒有關係嗎今天聽了一個早上你們的劉悅平司長喔 很難聽 今天終於來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
96.723 |
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116.903 |
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劉月平司長今天有講他的論述更簡單他說這個事情都應該要照研究計畫的主持的目的事業主管機關就是教育部他們有審查了IRB那要看這個研究人員有沒有遵守 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
117.503 |
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134.899 |
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他們應該遵循的法尊是像IRB計畫有沒有遵守這樣在執行然後第二個 劉業平馬上說這個IRB計畫不是你們審的那內容你們也不知道所以也不知道他們有沒有遵守是吧 大概你們就這樣講 對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
138.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
145.422 |
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整齊都這樣說啊 意思是說跟衛福部都沒關係啦是台師大的問題啦 跟教育部的問題啦事實是不是這樣 保庭你說一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
150.292 |
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163.815 |
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好 謝謝委員的催省我想任何民眾有受到健康上的一個威脅你不要避重就輕你今天在這裡你們所值的理由就是說這個IRB不是你們審美主管機關是告有報這個研究界外的IRB內容你們不知道對嘛 對嘛 是不是我們都一切依法辦理 |
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179.559 |
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188.066 |
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很好我現在就是要跟你講依法辦理的事情我今天要再跟你講今天國科會副主委出來講了一件事 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
188.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
國科會副主委說全台灣一百多個大學裡面而體育學門有申請人體試驗的計畫數台師大遠遠超過其他學校的總和國科會的人體試驗的補助計畫台師大萊爾申請了占了所有補助計畫裡面的六成以上這是一個非常不尋常的事情或許這是一個全面性在體育學門長期以來存在的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
218.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
221.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
OK 這事情有嚴重嗎 有啊 為什麼這麼嚴重誰讓這些學生要透過學分這樣威脅 畢業威脅讓他們沒有執行同意 不能行使退出權誰讓這些孩子哭 而只是這幾個孩子在哭嗎今天不是只有這些學生耶你看這很嚴重的可是我要問你一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
247.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
255.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
教育部在審查IRB的時候他們會知道他們會有足夠的專業去知道說IRB委員要聘請哪一些領域嗎他們會知道每天抽血三次連續抽血14天而這樣子的抽血行為對被抽血人的健康風險會有什麼樣的影響嗎教育部會有這個專業嗎教育部會有這個能力嗎你有給他任何行政指導嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
277.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
283.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你們衛福部不但沒有給他們任何行政指導我現在要講衛福部就是你所謂的依法行政裡面讓教育部讓台師大讓這些孩子這樣子在脅迫的狀況下恐懼的狀況下在那裡哭不得已才跑出來陳情讓他們哭的始作俑者我告訴你就是你們衛福部看這個公文 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
307.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
309.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
看這個公文來護理人員法解釋會編 108年好 那看你們的行政函式誰允許教育部來抽血 不需要專業的人力然後誰認為這個不是輔助醫療行為非侵入性 即便侵入性也沒關係是你們衛福部 101年因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
337.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
353.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
人體研究法通過以後大量的人體研究然後大家講說誰可以執行抽血的動作大家就寫公文來問你衛福部衛福部告訴大家你們不要假裝你不知道啦這個事情你們都知道啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
354.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
361.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
衛福部人家所詢學校護理人員如果是由學校護理人員受託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣他的釋法性應該是什麼最後一個所以你們說衛福部說研究計畫進行人體抽血抽樣非屬醫療行為也不是醫療輔助行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
380.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
401.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
讓他們可以亂找人有人來抽血抽到手發抖的不是校戶連不是校戶連叔叔伯伯阿姨是誰來抽血這些孩子都不知道抽到很痛在那裡哭一天抽三次連續抽14天讓孩子暴露在風險之下的就是這一張公文函式 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
403.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
431.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這一張公文好像是有講說至學校護理人員 如果是學校護理人員系授託協助校內研究計畫進行人體抽血採樣上階計畫應經人體研究法相關規定審查通過 使得為之OK看起來是什麼意思 不知道欸 不知道欸他是說校務可以抽 要放到計畫裡面審查通過就可以問題是 你這張函是憑啥這樣子說 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
433.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
451.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你的外服部的這一張公文等於是法規了命令了他有法律未接法律效力你們今天一直講依法依法你們幫助台師大逃避法律的規範就是你們這一張函式不要再多說了你們的你們都很清楚醫事司司長自己也很清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
460.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
464.138 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你們今天在這裡為七成這麼多 你不敢說的就是因為你副師長講了 副師長受訪 劉玉京說研究中的抽血並不是醫療行為 也不是醫療輔助行為但因攸關受試者保護 必須要由校護或醫檢師執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
481.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
504.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
144就是根據這一張函釋來的啦好 這個函釋的見解是這樣子我現在就講說奇怪了 這個函釋合法嗎這個函釋合理嗎這個函釋最大的問題就是對於涉及需要抽血的研究計畫進行抽血的人是沒有任何資格條件的限制 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
505.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
510.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
而且是完全沒有規定的 只要IRB計畫審查通過就可以了因為人家來問你說校戶可不可以抽你們說只要放在計畫裡面有就可以了那你們沒有說校戶以外的人不能抽 事實上有你們就是說不是醫療行為 不是醫療輔助行為每個人都可以來執行抽血的任務你校戶要來抽的話放在計畫裡面通過就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
532.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
556.661 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
阿貓阿狗來抽也可以放到IRB計畫裡面通過就可以了你們憑什麼這麼說 憑什麼你們憑什麼把這一張公文還是法律的依據在哪裡讓你可以允許讓這些孩子這樣子讓這些人暴露在健康的風險之下 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
558.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
565.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
憑什麼連續一天抽三次 連續十四天有風險的行為你們讓他合法化 憑什麼來 學長阿姨就可以抽 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
570.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
598.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我先講一下第一件事情校護是護理人員也就是醫事人員我不講我不講校護了我現在你的這張函式是阿貓阿狗學長阿姨通通可以來抽沒有我覺得這是對於法令這邊我們在講的是本來人體研究法裡面的IRB就會進行受試者保護所以所有的東西必須程序這邊IRB這邊的在審查每一個計劃案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
600.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
619.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我們人體研究法你們不需要訂出任何的行政指引給要做研究因為你把所有研究計畫的把關機制都交給要做研究的那個計畫的主持人的他的目的事業主管機關去核定去管理去監督IRB也交給他們 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
622.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你們衛福部在人體研究法讓你們當主管機關之後你不用訂出任何的遵循的行政指導嗎你不用訂出任何的執法嗎來讓教育部搞不好還有體育部未來的體育部搞不好還有國科位 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
641.578 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
661.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
搞不好其他的農業部也可以來提研究計畫你認為他們有足夠的專業他們知道IRB要聘請哪種委員嗎你們衛福部作為人體研究法的主管機關難道不用訂出相關的行政指導給這一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
662.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
672.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
目的是業主管機關嗎?你剛才說的都不符合裡面你們怠惰了這麼久,從一百二零一一年是吧,完成立法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
675.082 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
703.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
2011年完成立法到現在都沒有做出任何行政指導放任放任這一些目的世界主管機關不知道把關的住把關不住隨便你到這一次事件爆發才知道衛福部不但是這麼的瀆職而且台師大案件凸顯了這一個101年你們含釋的不合理且沒有辦法保護受試者權益的缺陷 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
704.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
729.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
這個事件凸顯了你們怠乎職責然後你們的韓式不但沒有保護到這些受試者的權益而且還推他們入火坑所以你們難道不應該針對執行人體研究特別是收案地點不是在醫療院所的研究涉及到抽血的行為人員的資格框定做出清楚明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
730.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
758.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
而且要符合受試者權益保障的任何規範來給目的事業主管機關當指導嗎而且基於衛福部作為人體研究法規的主管機關三讀以後當時學校啦其他部會啦其他研究機構啦他們的研究案例不像現在這麼多所以經過了十幾年了 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
760.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
776.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
你們還繼續拿舊的韓式出來舊地合法化台師大這一個根本就是聽不下去合法不合情也不合理的合理的舊的韓式法規啦但不合情也不合理 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
778.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
805.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
的這種狀況 你們難道不用再檢討嗎還是像你們次長講的第一時間先甩鍋給教育部跟監察院不是我 我沒有 不關我的事跟衛福部無關就是台師大的這個案例才反映了你們這個含釋才了解到衛福部是今天讓這麼多孩子在你們那裡哭 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
807.239 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
818.586 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
然後才是今天這一種不違反倫理的假倫理的規範的這種研究案啦可以繼續在那裡執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
820.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
840.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
今天受試者參與研究是醫學研究進步的關鍵所有的受試者都應該在要知情同意的前提之下而且要理解自己參與研究的內容和權益今天還有你們的責任喔 還有一個喔他不准他退出他不准人家退出 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
848.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
871.792 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
然後用受教權人權被威脅這個你們不用訂出任何的規範嗎所有的研究計畫都要他們都送一個執行同意書出來被迫了那他要檢舉要去哪裡檢舉 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
873.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
899.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
本來在計畫裡面都有所以我們會強調被迫了要去哪裡檢舉當他們被脅迫不能畢業會怕他要去檢舉這個其實回到檢舉機制在哪裡他敢向學校檢舉嗎本來就可以本來就可以要去哪裡然後連記者去年就幫他們開記者會還是六個月前就幫他們開記者會連立委都幫他們開過了 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
900.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
904.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
你們有看到嗎?立委開記者會的時候已經表示他們是被脅迫的為什麼你們沒有主動關心?當他說我人體研究計畫我被強迫抽血我用畢業學分被威脅而曝光了立委也在立法院質詢也開記者會了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
921.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
929.606 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
已經好幾個月以前了,不是現在這一波請問你衛福部為什麼沒有作為?請問你劉岳平司長,都視若無睹捏很難受的,劉司長要來立法院這麼壞,很難受的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
939.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
955.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
視若無睹捏這樣要怎麼做 保證你怎麼視若無睹 你做保證多久啊他開記者會的時候 立委這個爆料的時候 質詢的時候教育委員會的委員爆料開記者會的時候 你們做了什麼事 你們做了什麼事那時候已經違反人體研究法所有的規範了 你做了什麼事 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
962.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
974.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
包委員 這個要調查是要去調查我們計劃組織有沒有按照IRB對 那你調查了嗎從第一次曝光開記者會 曝光到現在你剛才劉悅平還在講這個IRB內容你們不知道要去調查已經經過半年了 你現在還要去調查你們不動於衝啦 不當一回事啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
987.368 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
994.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
你們就是不當一回事 無動於衷那你告訴我那你告訴我那你告訴我他們的IRB內容審查有沒有問題他們內容說什麼然後他們開記者會 叫立委開記者會說他們被強迫 他們要退出 他們被威脅你們又做了什麼你們做了什麼 這半年多來你們做了什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1013.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1037.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
第一件事情因為教育部已經開始做處理所以我們才會是說那這樣子的話應該是等教育部給我們他的報告然後整體的機制來做一期的檢討現在就是層層掩護 層層的壓下來而才會有這一第二波的爆料和第二波的記者會 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1039.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1056.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
你還在講說第一波的時候教育部已經調查了所以你們就不管了你現在是在說笑的 你在說笑的柏定你什麼時候再完成你們這一張不合理的韓式的漏洞的重新檢討柏定這一個韓式到現在還可以適用嗎 還適當嗎第一個我們馬上來處理那個所有發生的問題 包括這個韓式我們馬上 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1071.117 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1084.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
不用了 我們一個月就來好 很好那你們需不需要訂出更多的行政指導給其他的目的事業主管機關我們會再重申你們要不要再去重新的檢討檢視你們人體研究法有沒有更多其實是需要衛福部訂出來的法規好的 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1093.931 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1106.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
其他目的事業主管機關在做監督在做IRB審查的時候他們可以有所依循你們是不是應該要主動做更多啊有沒有檢討空間有一定有檢討空間因為事情已經發生表示說我們所有的相關的單位都應該要盡責任的去把它改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1116.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1121.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
不要再有下一次的發生我看你們劉月餅好像就覺得不當一回事還很想變啦我現在講說善意的為醫學或為科學進步去貢獻自己的受試者不應該在醫院參與研究有合格的這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1138.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1157.088 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
醫療人員抽血而在醫院和在社區參與研究卻有任由沒有受過訓練還邊抽血邊發抖的這一些人來抽這不是回報善意而且熱心參與研究的受試者該得到的對待當然 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1158.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1170.342 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我很熱心的我很善意的我要回饋我們的醫學研究了那我去醫院抽我就有合格的人幫我抽而我到醫院醫療院所以外的你們就容許他讓這種阿貓阿狗邊抽血邊發抖的人來幫他們抽 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1176.589 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1202.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
這是不應該的這不是回報這一些善意的人要參與研究願意參與研究的人該有的這個回饋是的 是的我們如果一定會協助去調查如果有違反IRB的該設救責的一定 ME的救責而且要我們一定會檢討整個制度怎麼樣把它改善得更好對 人還有很多制度面是你們應該要扛起來要做更多沒問題我們應該要負這個責任謝謝好 謝謝 |