| IVOD_ID |
163169 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163169 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-16T12:26:40+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-16T12:49:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:22:29 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7c9429a73bae53e07b8995cce8de8aff1b1d72feb9295bd2e4430186728dfa80cb8972f08e7de1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:26:40 - 12:49:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席,麻煩有請環境部部長、經濟部次長黃委員好兩位好這一次啊因為颱風的關係不好意思先光電板到處散落對環境所造成的衝擊在各個部會今天的報告當中都有提出來那當然環境部 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
40.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
56.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
好像部長認為對環境沒有什麼影響那海委會的書面報告意見跟你不太一樣但我覺得這是一個痛定時痛好好檢討到底出了什麼問題的事情我們一步一步下來看2020年屏東訪寮103公頃山坡地變更成光電倉這個有經過環評嗎那時候沒有沒有 OK 好 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
69.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
95.6 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
2021年屏東51公頃國家公園山坡地變更成光電廠有經過環評嗎?包委那個時候我們是今年1月的時候我們修改環評的法定過去是只有針對濕地然後如果是現在這個情況這個都要環評你說得很好這個就是我的重點我們現在去檢討過去的政策當初這些地方免環評你覺得是正確的決定嗎?你覺得是正確的決定嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
100.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
114.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
山坡地挖成那個樣子 不用環評國家公園挖成那個樣子 不用環評這一次引發軒然大波的欸 這個先停一下好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
135.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
136.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
2011年這次引發軒然大波的高雄大宿區五十億公頃山坡地變更成光電廠一樣沒有環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
165.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
191.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
為什麼大規模山坡地搞成光電廠通通都不用環評理由很簡單理由很簡單因為我們的政府說免環評免環評造成的結果是什麼LANC30沒有落實實體保持搞成今天啊這個樣子多久以前再往下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
193.123 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
216.735 |
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多久以前之前就不斷有環評委員說這些都應該要納入環評結果搞到2016開始搞搞到2024年光電環評零件零件ZERO通通都不用環評愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹我們的政府大開後門通通都不用環評下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
219.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
244.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
環評委員四度提出光電勘發案要納環評沒有下文在會議當中提出來我看到會議記錄裡面寫的是主席發言說謝謝各位委員提供寶貴的建議然後呢然後就沒有然後了然後就沒有然後了下一頁等到今年等到今年才說要納環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
248.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
259.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
來 請教部長會不會覺得這個規定來得太晚了還是來得剛剛好需要開發的都已經開發完了需要開發的都開發完了我們才規定要還平還是這個規定來得剛剛好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
261.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
282.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
包委員當時是有當時的做法因為我接任才一年當時當然有當時的做法嘛所以我希望你用環境部部長的高度告訴全體國人啊當初這是一個正確的政策決定嗎是嗎所以我修正了啊沒有錯嘛我沒有否定你修正嘛現在我在問的是這個規定會不會來得太晚 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
283.261 |
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310.124 |
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會不會來得太晚我做我該做的事情你做你該做的事情然後前面的錯誤的政策由前面的人必須要承擔責任對不對我沒有要你承擔責任啊你做你該做的事嘛前面沒有做到的前面的人要承擔責任對不對包委員我今天我的結語就是開發各種的再生能源要以環境保護為優先這個是我們的職責好 非常好下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
311.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
338.246 |
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水面型的光電廠現在要不要實施環評這個案例你說屏東那個案例他是屬於沒有沒有我現在是抽象的講水面型的光電廠依照現行規定要不要環評目前還不用但是你覺得不用合理嗎你覺得不用合理嗎這辦法不是你們公布的嗎你說你作為部長你做你該做的事嗎那我現在問題很具體啊水面型的光電廠要不要環評是不是部長該做的事 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
340.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
354.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個如果說它是一個濕地它會影響到環境不用講濕地啦濕地本來就納在裡面嘛我現在在問的是水面型的光電廠依照現行的規定要不要環評需要嗎需不需要目前不需要你覺得這個決定是對的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
358.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
379.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個我們會納入考慮納入考慮要考慮多久我們報告裡面我要納入環評總體檢年底會完成所以你說水面型的光電你要納入考慮要考慮多久等到該設的都設完了以後再來考慮是嗎報告委員不會的不會嗎不會的因為過去你環評的時候全部都搞完了嘛只是環評的零件頒布的辦法以後來申請的還是零件 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
386.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
398.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
我看了就很有意思啊為什麼頒布辦法以後來申請的是零件因為要處理的都處理完了嘛都處理完了啦處理完了以後才說要還平來經濟部當初喔有關於張編工業區聯合再生搞這個爛事我從去年就開始執行當初怎麼拿到這個案子的承諾要設4.89公頃的生態熱區 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
415.803 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
441.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
結果呢 所有承諾的事項 全部都違反不可以轉賣套利 也轉賣套利了然後承諾要設生態熱區 現在有設嗎來請教經濟部 有設嗎跟委員說明 若是任何的案場它違反籌設許可 甚至電力值沒有 現在我只問你當初他承諾要設4.89的生態熱區有設嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
445.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
464.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個是不是容我回去查一下不過我直接跟你講他沒有射你知不知道他為什麼沒有射你知不知道他為什麼沒有射他承諾要射喔後來沒有射喔你知不知道他為什麼沒有射委員我目前手中沒有知道你也不知道嘛我也直接跟你講答案你們經濟不准他不用射的從頭騙到尾從頭騙到尾 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
471.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
499.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
當初違法套利的時候出來幫他背書出來幫他護航的現在卸任了啦去當獨董啊賺大錢了叫王美花這件事情國發會後來都承認了我們一件事情一件事情來啦今天我要問你的只有生態熱區你兩件事情你都不知道沒關係我在國會負責任的跟你報告有沒有設沒有設為什麼可以不設經濟不準的好市長回去 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
499.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
527.447 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
回去請經濟部整理資料當初為什麼可以准這件事情兩個禮拜書面回覆給我可以嗎好謝謝下一頁然後呢高雄的事情等到出事了等到出事了經濟部火速撤帳要業者不要僥倖很好再下一頁那實際上面你們廢紙部分的司空局舍來我問一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
529.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
540.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
目前為止租給他的地收回來沒有現在還沒有因為我們要求他必須要恢復原狀然後我先問一下啦他這個土地使用沒有違反法令嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
542.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
564.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他有依照 如果沒有違法法律的話怎麼會被遵照 審議規定跟水路保持企劃來申請他目前我們 他有沒有被裁罰 他有沒有被裁罰我們也有罰他 政府也有罰他 你為什麼罰他因為他違法嘛 這還不簡單 他沒有違法你要怎麼罰他 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
565.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
577.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
我現在問題來啦他違法啦你罰他我OK我肯定雖然是亡羊補牢該做的事還是要做但我現在問題來啦現在是要放水嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
579.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
603.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
經濟部推動綠能從來沒有這個從來沒有放水沒有這個心態沒有這個想法是嗎絕對是依法依規所以現在經濟部能源署那個被起訴的模範公務員很無辜就對了是嗎現在還在細數法院當然嘛所以我就問你們標準是什麼嘛在下一頁來看一下租約陳租源使用土地違反法令要不要終止租約 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
604.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
631.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
他現在還在依違反法令然後主管機關要求他是 來來來 你把租約看清楚啊上面有說我還要給他機會改正不改正我才可以終止租約嗎租約是這樣寫的嗎租約寫說陳租倫使用土地違反法令就要終止租約收回土地了還是打算什麼樣還是打算跟張斌工業區的案子一樣決定要放水放到底 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
632.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
643.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
上面有說要他命改正預期不改正才可以終止租約嗎各位說明啊這個slide第18點啊先看11點好不好請你看一下11點請你看一下11點好不好本契約 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
648.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
677.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
出租的土地有下列情況出租人可以隨時終止租約收回土地寫的還不夠清楚嗎18點的特約事項裡面瓜福二是如今通知改善會改善時出租人得終止租約對啊所以你變成是你認為你在簽契約的時候18點排除11點你的契約解釋是這樣嗎誰告訴你的經濟部的律師告訴你的嗎這是台水公司簽訂的契約一樣嗎台水公司不是你們督導的嗎沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
678.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
700.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
回去跟台水公司講這是國家的資產這是國家的資產這樣胡搞瞎搞地還不收回來跟當初在放水臟病工業區的時候如出一徹一模一樣出了這麼嚴重的事了大內宣很會做很有魄力罰款 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
701.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
729.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
然後呢首先跟委員說明啊經濟部包括國營事業在處理相關的規定啊全部都合法合規真的嗎沒有關係啦我下一次有時間的時候張斌工業區經濟部怎麼從頭放水到最後連國發會都看不下去了直接跳出來打臉經濟部啊當初早就應該回收啦這不是我說的這國發會說的再往下看 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
732.014 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
756.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
2016年行政院太陽光電兩年期推動計畫規劃志宏池設置太陽光電再往下2017年嘉義縣府招標興溫志宏池光電案2018年給大家都很熟的雲豹能源的子公司得標這個是2018年喔給大家都很熟的雲豹能源得標再往下 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
757.999 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
761.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
這個就是今年七月以後造成的狀況清理完了沒有清理完了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
766.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
788.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
目前99%都清理完了然後接下來打算要怎麼辦繼續讓他再補新的上去嗎不是 接下來他必須要相關的廢棄物他必須要依規定來處理當然 這個都不用講他當然也是要復原所以復原就是再補新的供電板上去嗎因為他只要符合原來電風法相關的規定我們還是要依法來處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
788.959 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
814.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
OK 好 沒有關係啊 我們把話講清楚就好了啦我一直覺得很多媒體很奇怪啊 嘉義智洪池這一次造成這麼大問題的就雲爆啊沒有媒體敢報欸讓我覺得非常的驚訝來 再往下我們現在來看啦 屏東光電福台全毀然後呢 經濟部說啊 沒有沒有 那個光電板早就移除了那大家會有這個質疑其實也不意外 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
815.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
828.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那公司的負責人自己對外面講的但沒有關係這不是我現在要問的重點你們這個抗風浪測試啊依照你們給他的抗風浪測試啊這個業者的抗風浪測試要到第幾級風你給他錢嘛叫他做實驗嘛那依照我們相關跟他給他補助相關的規範他做這個實驗要可以抗幾級風知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
843.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
865.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
他基本上他希望是 希望喔可以用希望的喔 沒有要求喔沒有 這個基本上是一個試驗計畫啦 是他針對我們台灣的這個海域啊是 沒有錯啦 這個我知道 這個我都講過了嘛我講過的東西不用複述啦針對問題回答就好了有沒有要求他要可以抗擊疾風有還是沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
869.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
876.198 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個計畫希望說在這個我們的海域裡面啦可以長期的維持在這個地方是穩定的這個不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
882.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
902.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那個我們是要求他必須在這個地方測試經過一年的耐風也就是說一年我們台灣都有颱風那我們是要求他經過一年完成測試我們才會做驗收所以我們是用他能夠你覺得現在還有可能驗收嗎來我接下來往下看我為什麼問你這個問題下一頁2023年杜蘇熱颱風來襲的時候那個時候大內宣很會做 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
911.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
929.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
大內宣很會做 我們設計浪高可以抗到14米有嗎 有嗎 再往下一頁他自己怎麼宣傳的他宣傳說 這也是我們量身打造的太陽能浮潭金石鎮可以抗17級風可以抗17級風 今天會變成這樣的海洋浩劫 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
937.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
958.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
自吹自擂業者要自吹自擂也不只廣告業者要負責現在我關心的是這個錢到底怎麼給的再下一頁再下一頁再下一頁再下一頁好來我們2023年經濟部門原署給他補助嘛是吧什麼時候給的他這個計畫是112年到115年 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
963.541 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
971.345 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
對 什麼時候給的 幾月幾號沒有關係啊 什麼時候審議通過的112年的7月7月幾號目前他的計畫是從7月1號開始你們什麼時候開審議會的審議會中間他有三次審議會 第一次是從最後什麼時候通過就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
988.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
1002.348 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
我上面都幫你列出來答案都幫你寫出來了7月28號經濟部門委員署審議通過補出1.35億元我講的對不對是吧沒有錯吧這是你們公文書上面記載的嘛那奇怪囉7月28號才審議通過7月28號審議通過追溯到7月1號就開始囉先設建再畫吧那這是廠商的資料啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1018.783 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1037.475 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以呢7月1號就要開始了7月1號開始7月28號審議通過你會覺得很奇怪我還可以追溯再給你錢喔在下一頁來看一下喔從他提申請到核准三個月 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1039.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1048.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
三個月 開一次會 7月28號那一次會7月28號那一次會 結果廠商申請的時間是從7月1號開始我看了這個貓膩很深啊先設建再劃靶光速審查1.35億就這樣丟出去了反正納稅人的錢不是錢啊欽差部 黑白部 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1066.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1074.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
7月1號要開始的計畫7月28號審議通過市長你不會覺得很奇怪還是這個在公家機關在經濟部很正常常常都這樣幹是這樣嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1077.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1097.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
有一些時候因為我們在審查的時候有正式的審查那正式的審查之前還有會前會的審查那有些時候廠商依照會前的時候的審查他認為說這個部分是對他有利的他自己就披露了這個部分我老實跟你講啦五月的時候提申請書五月的時候提申請書下一頁 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1101.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1112.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
看一下左手邊5月的時候提申請出他計畫期間寫什麼時候7月1號到114年12月31號廠商就直接這樣子寫啦那你們什麼時候開貨審議通過的112年7月28號我時序我完全沒有講錯那現在問題來了這問題來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1128.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1134.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
他期間開始的時候你們都還沒開始審議到7月底審議通過 追溯到7月1號開始我看到的叫做先射箭再劃靶我看的叫先射箭再劃靶貼了1.35億下去結果搞成今天這個樣子 海洋浩劫東西還飄到澎湖那邊去接下來大家等著看 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1154.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1181.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
等著看經濟部怎麼收拾這個爛攤子啊當初這個計畫怎麼過的我調資料你們說這個要廠商同意才可以提供市長廠商有同意嗎這個我們在10天裡面他必須要給我們回覆10天之內 我期待啊這個廠商不是很會做廣告我抗17級風啊去年颱風來都沒事啊大內宣很會做啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1183.697 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1204.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
非常會做啊因為我八股很強啊我八股非常的強啊在這邊跟委員再重申我們在綠能的發展已經建立了廉政平台經濟部從來不會想要包補所以嘛這個就是按照你說的嘛就是按照你們這個樣子經濟部能源署光電組的組長才會被起訴嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1208.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1234.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我有說錯嗎這個部分 起訴他細數在法院的這個審理中那我們認為他過去的一個表現非常的好他是一個非常認真的官員你如果要繼續跟我爭這個 那我就問你一個最直接的問題當初台陽 台南的立昂他是符合小二甲哪一個例外我上次問部長部長答不出來 他也不知道是哪一個例外 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1236.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1258.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
能有數的要上來救援也答不出來因為不符合任何例外這個我沒有在跟你討論個案他有沒有故意的問題喔我光請教一個最簡單的法規適用的問題當初就已經有小二甲的禁令了請問是符合哪一款的例外整個經濟部上上下下沒有一個人答得出來然後你今天敢站在這邊講都按照法規在進行 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1267.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1280.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
人民聽得下去喔 人民聽得下去喔這種劣質的廠商 把納稅人的錢當什麼把納稅人的錢當批款機喔十三個案子已經釐清了 這個我們就撤銷了奇怪喔 阿你不是說都依法 阿如果都依法幹嘛還要撤銷 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1291.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1307.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
不是 依法釐清了他是不是違反了啊當然就是違法才撤銷嘛那還有42個案子的話他還在所以你的意思是說我們因為有42個案子OK所以當初13個違法過的沒有關係是這樣嗎42個案子他必須要主管機關的這個審認啊這個不是在我們的權責裡面我這樣講好了啦接下來光電板 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1320.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1345.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
對於環境所會造成的衝擊大家非常的關心大家非常的關心經濟部也好環境部也好攜手努力啦過去犯的錯誤就已經造成這樣的結果那要不然要怎麼辦現在就只有認真的追究責任更重要的事情是什麼希望以後這樣的事情不要再發生好 謝謝謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 |