| IVOD_ID |
163156 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163156 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-20 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
20 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-16T11:09:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-16T11:29:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7c9429a73bae53e01cb4a656c01049101b1d72feb9295bd22c80b78dbb6162d253d5a73745c472315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳菁徽 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:09:35 - 11:29:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-16T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部部長、海洋委員會、農業部、內政部、國防部、金融監督管理委員會針對「光電設施對環境影響情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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因為剛剛有感而發聽到昭緯在為台電的員工覺得抱屈也聽了很多委員質詢的內容那本席在這邊其實也為台電的員工致敬覺得他們不眠不休的搶救真的是非常的辛苦 |
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29.265 |
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可是我們也要強調這麼多人問下來就是錯誤的能源政策造成我們現在的電力系統這樣子的脆弱我希望經濟部可以反省國部長今天沒有來可是國部長之前老員工提醒他錯誤的能源政策的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
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他在備詢的時候是說不爽就不要做啊可以離職啊他是這樣子講的那這次 昭偉也很知道啊你的福台都已經飄到澎湖去了你的福台的殘骸都已經卡在消波塊了經濟部特別做圖卡說人民不要造謠喔不要造謠上面有光電板喔造謠的人我們要報警喔 |
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84.375 |
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這相比起來跟你今天說你要趕到南部去看基層的台電的同仁 我覺得情何以堪 你做出來的樣子跟你今天在這邊說你沒有辦法來答詢的這個 |
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理由我覺得不堪一擊啦那這邊剛看了這麼多委員質詢的圖片我們發現台南是整排的電線桿倒塌屋頂掀飛的幾千戶我現在講的是人命剛剛一位很辛苦的台電人人OKA現在放葉克摩 |
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但是我們因為一整個禮拜活在黑暗中有八十幾歲的阿嬤點蠟燭可是不幸往生 因為 |
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這個起火那另外一位里長是因為呼吸器斷電他們已經在黑暗中這樣子過這不是我們應該要有的經濟部應該要全面的檢討你們的能源政策然而我們在問這些問題的時候事發當時有縣長在北歐考察執政黨委員在大罷免大遶境媒體對於台南的訊息通通都不報 |
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然後我們總統去勘栽說什麼 說這不是國軍的慷慨說我們要有社會韌性說這個屋頂你要自己擺起來啊那民眾說沒水 沒網路 沒電手機沒有訊號要怎麼生活他說郭國文委員的手機有訊號啊 |
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164.838 |
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170.402 |
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我們台灣人到底是多麼的悲哀才會用這樣子破爛的能源政策來賠命啊已經兩位老人家這是我剛剛聽到這麼多委員質詢最感慨的事情那我現在想先請次長 |
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205.667 |
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已經說了福台你好福台現在散落的到處都是你自己也沒辦法預估什麼時候才可以把所有的殘骸全部撈回來黃國昌委員陳昭芝委員都說這個就是人民的納稅錢所補助的計畫去做的 |
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206.857 |
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213.225 |
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那你說你還要先問廠商才可以給我們這個計劃書你這個計劃書早就已經寫好了現在並不是讓你們在勘栽很忙碌的時間還要伸出什麼報告給我們這個計劃書早就有了我相信張委很想看吧 |
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224.875 |
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237.086 |
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因為交委現在每天都到屏東的海岸去看你那些福台到底收完了沒他預測一個月都收不完那我們是不是還要再排一次專報或者是質詢請問我們想問我們這麼基本的計畫書這個結構性的錯誤中間是不是有什麼弊案然後人民納稅錢補助的這個計畫 |
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248.936 |
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請問你這個計畫書你覺得你可以在多久的期限之內問到廠商的許可然後可以給委員們謝謝委員首先代表台電的員工感謝委員對台電員工的關懷 |
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263.992 |
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284.94 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這第一點 第二點有關於屏東這個案場我們的資料第一個所有的浮到這個海岸邊的這個部分要清理那我們當然剛剛也有聽到海委會到海下裡面去看有沒有光電板在此跟委員跟大家說明這一次丹納斯颱風之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
286.981 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
314.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個光電板都已經移除了我們現在是看到湖台的部分那這湖台的部分的話當然即刻的清理除此之外的話委員所關心的資料的部分因為這裡面不但有涉及到公共利益也涉及到個人資料的保護所以我們需要依照法規的這個執行來處理那我們已經我們只有大概是10天之內我們要求廠商給我們一個回覆 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
315.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
344.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那第一個問題你已經答覆了就是10天之內你可以獲得廠商的回覆決定要不要給我們計劃書所以也有可能我們沒有計劃書 對嗎它涉及到所謂的它個資的部分公司的營運的部分所以10天我們就知道有或沒有那第二個問題你剛剛提到的因為你們今天的報告都有寫你們會盡速的把這些浮台全部打撈回來然後這個消波塊也會處理乾淨請問這個期限是多久因為朝委也很想知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
345.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
373.679 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
事實上我們在7月11號之前已經把大部分的都清理了但是因為隨著這個海浪風浪的這個影響他這些所謂的福台HDPE包括有一些的細部的設施可能還有漂到其他海岸的這個地方我們會請能源署教學廠商確實一一的逐一的詢點所以兩個問題都沒有答案沒有現在都已經清了差不多了 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
374.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
383.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
但多久以內請完你還不知道啦這個屏東縣政府已經有給他限期了會繼續採訪好次長您請回座接下來我們請環境部部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
388.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
417.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好部長有一個年輕人會玩的叫做狼人殺就是找出到底是誰在說謊這個是風災之後經濟部說受損的光碟板一直在清潤無毒不會造成污染但同一天或是前後兩天您說光電模組含有金屬與化學物質若沒有妥善清除處理恐流入土壤和水體引發長期的污染疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
419.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
443.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
包委員這個我們有跟他那位記者表示不一樣的意見因為我們有一個新聞稿說得很清楚我們沒有這樣說是隔天的新聞稿他加了一些他自己的看法進去那當然啦任何的這個儀器或是電器都有金屬在裡面例如說我們的手機所以其實泡到水長久以來對環境都是不好的所以其實您覺得經濟部的這張圖卡 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
446.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
468.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
沒有寫得夠清楚 對嗎左邊是左邊 我說的是右邊你看到右邊那張圖因為你剛剛有講啊 你說長期浸泡在水裡或是土壤裡還是會有其影響就是任何的東西 反走過不一定有痕跡嘛所以它絕對不是無毒嘛 對不對它不是無毒基本上它不是有害的廢棄物啦那至於有沒有毒 是一個風險跟濃度的關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
471.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
495.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以它不是無毒目前我們量到現在沒有毒但是如果放了很久那個例如說紅或是銀如果放很久很久可能幾年那當然一定會慢慢的影響到水質了解沒關係等一下我們來討論再來你隔天又有另外一個說法說太陽能模組主要是鋁礦玻璃EVA模發電元件並未被列為有害廢棄物這個你剛剛也講了還提醒外界勿混淆視聽 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
515.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
這個我前面已經講得很清楚了已經有人因此而喪命可是經濟部在發圖卡叫大家不要造謠然後你叫大家不要混淆視聽委員是什麼喪命?因為太陽光電板喪命嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
515.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不是不是不是我的意思是說我們現在當務之急是要去找這些光電板引起的污染還有這些光電板有沒有碎裂找不到序號的有沒有根本回收不回來的這才是我們的當務之急不是嗎是是好那這些大型的光電板當然現在還有很多網路上有非常多鄉民啊他們有看到 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.263 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
560.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
飛到車子裡的啦卡到土裡的啦掉到池塘水裡的還有在樹上他們還說可以行光合作用的這些光電板啊都已經碎裂的一塌糊塗到處都是那每一片有所謂的身分證跟序號嘛我們今天有看到經濟部說可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
561.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
570.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個損失是0.4%0.4%請問兩個部門有辦法詳列出這0.4%裡面最後找不到的碎裂的你們找得回來嗎因為我們只知道你是回推0.4%沒有了可是我們不曉得經過一次風災以後沒有辦法修復的或者是序號再也找不到的有多少比例這個數據我們要怎麼樣獲得 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
590.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這一定可以獲得的啦因為我們都可以算的出來大概14.5萬片那當然每一片都有它的一個序號所以到時候就可以出來說到底誰被我回收回來因為等於是每一個面板上面都有貼了一個代碼有一個QR code什麼是出產年月日哪裡製造的都全部都所以你會知道哪一些序號最終沒辦法找回來了 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
611.708 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
638.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
對一定可以的那這個數據我們大概多久才會現在就是說像嘉義嘉義可能就是說我們對大型的剛剛那個像新溫的滯洪池我們要他兩個禮拜前兩個禮拜內一定要清掉如果小的話就一個禮拜內然後他要去這個所謂去化廠去把它去化掉所以第一個是那邊第二個是那邊那另外那邊呢大概要花1.5個月但是現場我們希望兩個禮拜內要清除掉 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
639.568 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
666.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好 我們平均我就看了一下數據這個部長也很清楚每年我們平均的颱風大概5到7至8個3到4個登陸的好 如果你們每一次都需要1.5個月統計我會覺得有一點點久不過這次我們希望可以在1.5個月後可以看到這些數據我們才知道這些光電板它的年限本來應該是20到30年所以它多少比例會因為天然的災害而提早被淘汰嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
667.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
684.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
包委員因為這一次是第一次在嘉義登陸而且是涼到將近快要到16到17級的強震風基本上那個屋頂都被掀開來那那個在餘溫的光電板他用纜繩拉的那就容易斷裂其實屋頂的陸域型的是沒有什麼影響的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
685.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
705.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
部長我們還是以防患於未然好嗎這個是您剛其實講得很清楚這個光電板你要回收哪些金屬部分它裡面的材質包括什麼那其實我就是要跟你討論剛剛我們討論的我們先舉裡面最大成分的焊接的鉛好了 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
706.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
730.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
簽列為國際第一級的高毒性重金屬台灣環保的法規限制含鉛的土壤需要清除喔所以它對人體健康的影響有神經毒性兒童智能發展障礙腎損害長期是還有可能致癌這個是裡面它焊接的主要成分再來它上下這個膜希望水不要滲透進去的浮化的塑料 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
731.21 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
750.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這一些他如果已經掉在荒郊野外經過高溫焚燒產生的代藥芯吸入有高度的毒性也有可能會致癌所以你所以到底所以這就是為什麼我問你有毒還是沒有毒你跟經濟部一定有一個人是錯的不過我現在比較相信你 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
751.284 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
772.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
因為這些東西在環境中長期的曝露沒有人把它找回來一定有嘛 很多啊現在網友到處他去爬山或去勘栽他就馬上發現這邊一塊光電管那邊一塊這些東西長期在環境中就是會對我們的土壤還有水質產生毒性那我覺得比起我們前幾個禮拜的質詢我們空屋討論這麼細討論到PM0.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
778.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
803.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
結果對現在這些天災產生的錯誤的能源政策製造出來的污染源是視而不見啦 是為什麼包委員 這個像你說的這個鉛喔我們剛剛今天報告 我禮拜一派同仁去量那其實未檢出 鉛未檢出等於是光電板到的這個滯洪池或餘溫去未檢出鉛 目前的情況是這樣但是你剛剛也有講啊 你說放很久的會 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
804.572 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
827.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
對但是這個就需要科學的這個實驗驗證啦那我們過去是沒有做過這樣的東西但是常理都知道例如說我把我的手機放在水裡面泡個五年那當然那個水我們都一定會有一點疑慮嘛對所以為什麼我們希望獲得那個數據因為你一定有一些序號是找不回來的而這些找不回來的序號就是在環境中繼續衍生出污染物啊不是嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
827.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
841.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
對 如果是這個是現在我們先把它清除完如果後續如果遺失很多的話那當然後續的監控我們都一定要做好 昭緯如果真的遺失很多我們再來排一次專報好嗎好 那接下來我想放一段影片 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
844.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
873.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這個是部長您不在三片谷的國內的時候都是民進黨錯誤的能源政策所造成的本來這個山坡地是以種綠荷包鳳梨 水果等等人民但是配合政府的綠能綠電政策把土地租給廠商來開發光電這不是什麼能源轉型這個叫做對土地的背叛對環境的掠奪我們就是因為之前那個50公頃沒有接受環評才會發生這樣子恐怖的事情這邊會列條因為屬於國有土地但經能源主管機關同意者不在環評的限制設置累積面積15公頃以上才需要做環評 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
873.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
874.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個我剛剛聽到你有答覆王玉敏委員了 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
892.19 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
918.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
除了15公頃以下還有國營事業的土地還有開發行為如果是附屬的設施只要主管機關認定就免評估剛剛很多委員又加上了一個水域對不對對那你們這個因為我這個已經是您在國外的時候您參加一個研討會的質詢當時次長說會研議會檢討會開會現在已經一個月過去了我也想知道你的進度在哪裡啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
921.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
921.852 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們請我們市長 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
924.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
950.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
報告人 那個有關研議加研的部分 其實我們內部已經有討論過 那但是因為不修法的情況下 我們可以要求能源署在針對他們免還 認定免還平等 因為我們那個是經能源主管機關同意者不在此限 那他們必須要有他們相關的程序 還有要會商農業部和環保單位 這個我們有要求他們要 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
951.488 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
976.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
把它程序要明確化把它訂出來這個是沒有修法的加嚴的部分那如果有修法的部分其實我們跟同學有討論過可以有很多方向那但是初步我們有想說也許就雙主管機關因為原來只有能源主管機關會不會就是連林業主管機關也加進來必須兩者同意才可以免環評甚至是 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
978.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1007.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
有很多種情境啊最嚴情境就是這個部分只要有在那個林地的地方全部都要翻屏大家其實蠻擔心的因為下一個颱風又在靠近我們了這個禮拜都看到沿海農業區保育區全部都被這些光電板漂浮的亂七八糟好你說你要跟其他的主管機關我們也只是問進度我剛問進度你到底什麼時候會把它加嚴這也是一般人民想知道的多久以內你會把它加嚴嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1008.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1027.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們上次有答覆您就是說基本上如果要涉及那個整體的因為我們今年1月16號才修訂完嘛那我們會並我們環評總體檢的部分一起如果要涉及要修法的部分我們並那個一起檢討一起來處理年底前 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1028.474 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1046.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
我們今年年底之前應該會到年底到或是明年初之前環兵總體檢會完成那個完成之後我們就會來啟動是不是要修法反正我們年底之前會看到你先加研嘛就是我們先總體檢完我們到底需要怎麼樣改 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1048.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1048.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
1%的光電板?呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1070.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1091.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
基本上我們是108年以後都有被我們列管啦108年以前那時候制度是沒有列管的我是去年的3月21在委員會提了臨時提案要求把太陽能光電板列入因回收的項目完備廢棄太陽能板的回收機制你現在那一年了你什麼時候可以把它納入回收機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1096.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1103.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
我們這個是在做一個預告 預告是八月預告預計八月預告所以你們會跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1105.607 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1129.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
經濟部因為經濟部有一個特別條例的草案各位報告那我們在光電板要回收部分目前是透過他的那個等過費去收那但是其他有一部分是沒有去透過等過費去收我們就用這個廢清法來做一個處理來要求我就只問彭部長最後一個問題這也是這次從您的報告裡面看出來的 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1129.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1154.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
您其實有預估一個未來光電板淘汰的壽命他們大概20到30年那廢棄物的話呢到121年年回收量1萬片128年10萬片那你那個時候是用天然災害的損壞率0.2到0.5%來估算的但今天的報告是寫說一次風災就0.4%你剛也講登陸的颱風你會想要調整這個數據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1159.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1181.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個我們可以再討論啦 不過報告委員 這個是這次是一個特別的天災然後我們光電板在這個餘溫還有滯洪池上面從來沒有遇過這麼大的過啦所以我是認為我們也可以來檢討這件事情 對我覺得部長你還是體會一下住在家裡的人的心情啦就是大家還是會希望這件事情不要再發生 好嗎好 謝謝 |