| IVOD_ID |
163123 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163123 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-14T16:17:32+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-14T16:37:44+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292bee761d3fc166cc52e71d587566aeaab6aabffe2a991c72a2f9f7472ed2d1f4185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳培瑜 |
| 委員發言時間 |
16:17:32 - 16:37:44 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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謝謝主席 那有請備題名人 謝謝請備題名人叫做達旭委員好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.946 |
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好 謝謝謝謝貝提名人過去您的宣揚是來自於憲法 行政法還有地方自治領域的專長部分那如果沒有問題我想我們今天非常開心也非常期待可以跟您進行一些意見上的交流那首先我想要談一個關於法庭直播這個議題 |
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33.453 |
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因為過去這一整年當中一年多以來在立法院有非常多的迴憲亂政的立法還有預算提案我在早上跟另外一位被提名討論的時候我們也討論過但是在法庭直播這一題我想要跟您討論在憲法八十條的部分有明定法官須超出黨派之外依據法律獨立審判 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.466 |
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82.805 |
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不受任何干涉對嗎是好這個是我們憲法明定的精神那我想要跟您討論直播法庭直播算不算是一種對法官的干涉法庭直播是法庭公開的一種機制我不排除法庭直播可能會造成法官在執行職權時內在的心理壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
95.89 |
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那這個部分潛在的可能性或許會去影響到他審判原來的新政這個我不排除 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
96.789 |
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117.533 |
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好過去如果按照您這個說法確實在法官受到這個公開直播的壓力的時候確實有可能您剛說的心理上的壓力影響到他的心證事實上我認為我剛剛只是用法官作為一個例子在相關的法庭關係當中其實不是只有法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
118.053 |
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142.274 |
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有可能受到影響如果我們來看整個案件的話其實有非常多人會受到影響包含檢察官包含證人包含鑑定人因為目前在立法院所通過的版本當然我個人是不認同這個版本在立法院所通過的版本裡面呢規定是由被告申請開啟這個所謂的法庭公開直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
142.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
166.769 |
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或者是法院依照職權來裁定必須進行直播我實在是想不通有什麼樣的律師會希望自己的代理人他在法庭公開直播的時候要在大家的面前曝露所有他的案件的細節我也難以想像到底有什麼樣的情況 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
167.89 |
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194.038 |
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除了符合社會公益跟重大案件我們有必須有必要進行直播之外我難以想像當然我的投影片上面放的是鄭振前委員但我並不想以他個人的個案作為討論的基礎我只是提出一個荒謬的點在這個立法院三讀通過之後馬上鄭振前委員自己的案子他竟然就要求說他不要公開直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
194.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
211.107 |
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我甚至認為他自己在按三讀表決通過的時候他都忘記他根本不知道原來是要被告申請而他身為這個案子的被告他可能沒有想到也或者他很擔心法院依職權裁定他就要直播 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
211.687 |
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236.336 |
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那當然他的案子只是讓我們看見這個法案的荒謬之處但更關鍵的是我想要跟您討論證人鑑定人檢察官到底對於他們的隱私對於他們在法院上所做的陳述還有所有的資訊後續的直播會產生哪些問題除了我剛說的當然我還有覺得還有另外一個問題也非常的我認為非常的可怕在整個直播過程當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
237.932 |
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258.284 |
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如果後續有心人刻意操作把某一些人的說話片段後製剪接加上字幕而且那個剪接可能不是時序順的剪接他可能刻意的在不同的時序點前後倒置刻意的穿插製造錯假的訊息而這些影片他就已經流傳出去了 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
258.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
283.111 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
他就已經就算我們知道影片可以下架但網路這件事情是沒有辦法保證百分之百的他可能會造成非常多後續的影響恐懼焦慮這些事情而所有的人可能在這個案件當中在這個直播影片當中被指指點點被不當的評論跟對待所以我才要跟您討論在憲法的高度您如何看待法庭直播後續所可能造成跟帶來的一些問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
285.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
301.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
謝謝委員的提問我認為這個是一個我們在法院組織法經由大院三讀通過後我們必須去嚴正面對的後續問題那如果對於三讀的條文沒有誤解的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
304.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
331.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他其實還是有待於司法院去制定相關的執法我覺得委員剛剛所提到的這一些問題至少我們以比較進程的去填補各方權益的衡量可以某程度上在執法裡面去呈現出來像我在問卷的回答裡面我有去提到後製再利用怎麼樣去 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
332.31 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
353.998 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
避免委員剛剛所提到的那個疑慮當然這個尊重司法院的法規執法的制定權但是我覺得可以想像的是如果日後要以之作為另案訴訟是否具有證據能力的素材這個其實一定要面對 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
355.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
374.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們有沒有辦法透過執法的制定,將任何重製的影帶的全部跟片段,讓它不具有證據能力,以官方的版本為在我們法律上唯一認定的有權證據。 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
376.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
392.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那至於說我覺得比較麻煩從憲法的高度來看就是我不是拿來做另案訴訟的證據之用而是我就是在網路上作為我的言論之一或者是所謂的言論自由的形式 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
394.344 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
412.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個恐怕我覺得也必須要去面對,任何變更的重置,尤其是以個案為前提的直播後的這些錄影錄音,我覺得要嚴格管制。它跟一般的言論自由的行使是不一樣的。 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
414.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
430.081 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個是我目前比較粗淺想到在不撼動原有的三讀通過的條文底下我們如何讓這個能夠盡可能的圓滿達到憲法人權保障的橫平的一個方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
431.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
451.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我很謝謝貝提名人你剛提到幾個非常重要的觀點包含第一個是他跟言論自由其實不同的如何在相關執法的保障底下確保人權的這個部分但是我要問我們自己來看我們當時在黨團協商的時候我們其實就主張這很有可能造成對司法的施壓 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
452.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
462.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
你怎麼看這件事情就施壓的部分確實有可能成如我剛回答委員的第一個問題他確實有可能造成內在的壓力 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
463.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
488.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
所以有沒有可能在目前我們的通過的條文裡面剛剛委員也提到被告的申請跟法院依職權的裁定我們有沒有可能在個案裡面對這個部分在法官職權行使上面採比較嚴格的限縮使用的方式盡可能讓 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
490.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
496.275 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
這樣的一個情況 除非是認為沒有那些疑慮才准予 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
497.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
520.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
其實事實上現在的法庭就已經有錄影跟錄音了在有必要的時候可以申請使用這些東西所以我認為法庭直播在這件事情上其實是逾越了原來的所謂錄音錄影然後有需要才申請所以我今天特地把這個題目拿出來跟被庭人您討論但我相信後續不管是司法的執法的相關配套或者是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
521.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
545.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
到最後我們要如何確保剛剛說言論自由的部分施壓司法的部分還有人權的部分我認為都會是未來您可能會面對的燙手山芋好那我們接下來看第二個題目也是我們辦公室一直都在關心的關於司法少年的議題確實在這幾年當中我們看到司法少年不論是詐欺詐騙案這個大家可能覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
546.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
571.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
青少年容易上鉤容易成為犯罪集團要挾持的對象或者是把他們當成是工具人的對象或者是之前在前年的時候有相關的擱淨案都讓大家重新意識如何認識如何對待如何協助司法少年那我想要談一下關於少事法第83條之一的這個議題 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
572.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
590.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因為這個議題在戈井案之後在很多詐騙案猖獗之後在很多孩子被當成車手之後很多人開始會過來看邵氏法83條之一的修法是在說什麼這個當時的修法在民國65年的時候是首次新增這個條款這個條款是說五年內 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
591.371 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
614.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
未受管訓處分或刑之宣告就可以徒消前科好先幫你做一個前情說明目的就是希望鼓勵孩子們少年們改過自新然後不要再去觸碰新的法律後來呢逐漸的修法逐漸的修法慢慢改變成現在是說只要一定的期間就會徒消前科 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
615.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
639.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
可是我剛說的前情是在戈井案還有非常多的詐欺詐騙案之後呢大家開始問要不要來限縮或是調整這個所謂突銷前科的條件所以司法院在去年提出修正草案目前也通過院會目前的寫法是說少年在三年內未在故意犯罪才能突銷前科 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
639.986 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
660.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
就這個部分,我認為從民國65年到近年來的改革,到去年提出最新版本的修法,確實時空環境背景不一樣。青少年們所接受的社會環境、學校環境、家庭社區環境,都從相對單純變得複雜、多元、而且多變,並且快速。 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
661.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
685.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
連我們大人都不見得可以應付這麼快速變換頻繁多元的樣態更何況是這些青少年因此我認為在這麼複雜的環境變遷的情況下這樣子的修法您怎麼看從五年新增然後到一定時間到現在變成三年法律的修正本來就是要與時俱進 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
688.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
712.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這樣子的一個微調去呼應我們目前青少年尤其是在炸棄犯的車手的部分所做的一個回應基本上我認為把它朝向有條件的限縮的塗銷這個基本立場我是支持的更何況你要不要先喝水沒關係謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
717.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
743.315 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
主席可以幫我暫停一下嗎謝謝主席好謝謝委員好謝謝主席更何況我們在歷經這多年以來我們的青少年的成長新式成熟度完全沒有辦法跟六十幾年以來的狀況相比這也就是為什麼我們之前 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
744.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
755.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這有點岔開話題就是我們18歲為成年人的那個修憲案換句話說我們如果把這個考量進去的話適時的去檢討法規範的與時俱進這個立場我是支持的 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
762.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
779.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
就這個立場我可以理解因為您剛剛說到一句話就是現在我說的這麼多變這麼快速多元文化情況下您認為現在青少年的心智成熟年齡跟心智成熟度應該遠遠超過也就是我剛說明過65年的時候將近50年前 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
780.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
796.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但我在現場也看到另外一個困境當然我認為這個是有不同的觀點的如果我們回來看少事法或者是看兒童權利公約或者是在看我們所謂的盡可能避免少年進入司法系統的這個脈絡 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
798.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
814.682 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
其實當然是希望給犯罪的青少年機會也希望站在兒童權利公約的角度看待國際人權公約尤其是兩公約國內法治化之後我們如何看待這件事情我認為也是後續我們真的必須要花時間討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
816.184 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
835.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
也就是說我認同你剛剛說的孩子們的心智成熟度變高我們理當可能就認為他們對於法理的認識對於自己行為的約束跟把行為跟法理之間的關係做一個合理的連結我們彷彿認為這個是孩子們必須具備的能力跟素養 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
836.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
863.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但偏偏相當的困境是當這些好人們在進化的時候其實壞人們也在進化不要說司法少年他們誤入歧途或是他們對社會認識不深其實更多的大人也不見得具備相關的法學素養法理知識或者是把法學跟生活合在一起所以我們也看到有非常多大人類似的案件所以我認為我還是期待有沒有當然後續的事情可以再討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
864.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
887.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
不過我還是希望有沒有在未來如果您真的可以擔任大法官有沒有機會有沒有意願在憲法法庭的判決中把我剛剛所提到的兒童權利公約也好或者是國際人權公約相關國際公約精神放入您在做相關判決的內容或者是帶入這個精神 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
888.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
917.784 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
是 謝謝委員的鼓勵那事實上我們目前不管是兩公約也好兒童人權公約也好或者是其他消除婦女這個一切歧視其實在我們的若干憲法法庭的裁判裡面都頁抑 援引那如果我未來出任大法官這個是不可避免的職責也必須要參考國際的人權標準這個無庸置疑 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
919.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
934.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
我非常期待看見這個部分既然我們剛講到要把國際人權公約精神納入其實另外一個也很重要在做相關判決的時候也就是民意這件事情因為民意確實是這幾年來很多人對於大法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
935.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
959.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
相對容易提出的質疑大家會說大法官沒有民意基礎或者是說大法官審理案件的時候沒有考量民意我很想請教您在您未來如果擔任大法官民意會不會是您做成決定的重要參考項目回委員兩個問題第一個大法官到底有沒有民意基礎 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
961.652 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
986.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我自己的解讀根據我們憲法關於大法官的提名跟同意權行使的規範架構大法官在這個從提名到經由大院行使同意權它其實就是一個職權行使民主正當性的賦予接下來接手的 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
987.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1007.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
與立法委員不同的是基於大法官憲法上的職責接手的是憲法八十條的獨立審判但是如同我剛剛在口頭報告所說獨立審判並不是完全漠視民意因為民意在某程度上 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1008.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1026.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
它也是彰顯社會大眾對於我們現今憲法意識及人權正義觀的一種解讀。偏偏憲法訴訟又不可避免地涉及到利益衡量跟衝突。 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1027.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1051.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那我們怎麼樣做利益衡量跟衝突呢當然是縱觀多元因素不是只有規範不是只有法例包含目前人民對這樣的一個人權侵害他的一般觀感是什麼我們當然在視線工作裡面也必須不可規避要予以著量 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1053.126 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1078.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
如果按照這個前提意思就是說您會把民意作為在做出相關判決重要參考精神之一對嗎是聽起來是這樣那所以回過頭時間有限我想跟你談一談那關於公投公投他某個部分確實就直接代表了民意那當然不論是票數的比例懸殊或多或少他確實表達呈現了某些民意的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1079.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1105.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
但是公投結果的法律未接他跟大法官解釋或是憲法法庭所做成的判決結果未接是不一樣的對嗎是好那在這個前提底下請問被提名人您認為公民投票的結果跟大法官解釋或憲法法庭判決的法律未接一旦在見解上發生衝突您會怎麼處置跟考慮像這樣的議題謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1108.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1136.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
如果大法官的判決裡面沒有容認給立法者有去做核限性調適的修法空間那在這裡即便我們用直接民意的公投方式來呈現多數主流的民意恐怕也沒有辦法以直接民主去取代大法官的判決反之 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1137.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1166.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
如果大法官的判決他會回去要求立法者依裁判意旨去修法那這個時候公投就擁有創制立法原則以民意的展現來讓大院行使職權時作為主要的修法的參考依據所以還是要看公投他的議題在個案當中 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1167.369 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1190.419 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
大法官那邊的主文如何下而定您的回答非常的清楚但是我時間有限我就不再多問那不過我們很期待在後續的投票當中我們可以看見你可以順利的出任大法官為我們解決非常多人民現在非常期待的很多事件的問題都還沒有辦法解決好嗎好 以上非常謝謝您今天的回答也謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝被提名的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1197.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1197.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
下一位請盧憲一委員詢問 |