| IVOD_ID |
163120 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163120 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-14T15:01:04+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-14T15:21:36+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ab52da33aba8292b534a77476a68d0e2e71d587566aeaab6eb4b0aafec90296d13c5f764d90b48005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳玉珍 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:01:04 - 15:21:36 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-14T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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我們有請這個被提名的詹教授詹被提名人答詢 |
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39.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
政教授您好,我看到您在口頭報告裡頭說到您對憲政領域的專業和能力表現會秉持對憲法的信念和自我的驅使會捍衛憲政價值的核心本席表示肯定,也肯定您是非常學有專精尤其在行政法的部分應該是國內的翹楚我想特別跟您請教幾個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
41.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
55.905 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
第一個這個行政法的原則就是說在行政活動中要遵守的法律規範指導原則主要包括下列幾點我們先舉其大要者依法行政原則還有誠信及信賴保護原則還有比例原則這個對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
57.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
84.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
是沒錯嘛這個是基本的行政法ABC然後我想請問您那前一陣子我們在報道上看到一篇報導就是有關這個陸配的這個相關報導就是這個陸配被剝奪這個參政權這個報導這篇報導是一位理律師寫的他說請修理憲法不要修理陸配他們是台灣人他說這個裡面說到憲法說大陸地區人民為我國人民您贊成這一點嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
86.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
112.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
從憲法的角度來講我們不會把它視為是外國人對 從憲法的角度來講大陸地區人民不是外國人對吧是因為我常常在聽到民進黨的立委在政論節目上那個王一川委員說陳玉珍說憲法說大陸地區人民不是外國人他說這個一點法學常識都沒有您大法官背景裡面跟我一樣沒有法學常識我想請問您 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
113.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
134.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這個不好意思這個國民黨團有一個問卷跟您請教幾點有關這個國家安全保障人權的部分您回覆的重點如下從憲法角度以觀人權的限制本身並不必然當然構成違憲人權的限制來要細膩的審查其他政當事由是否該當然後另外一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
135.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
156.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
就是您承認說在國家安全和人權保護之間是一種可能因為社會政治因素不同而擁有變動之可能性然後必然是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境調和然後接著在古典的學理上基於國家安全限制一些憲法保障的自由權利必須是 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
176.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
以達有著手危害國家存在的具體限制之程度如果只是單純的意念表達或是不具影響力的鼓吹尚不足以具有限制人權的憲法上正當性這是您的回答沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
177.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
189.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
這每個字都是您說的那您提到因為我們這個是討論有關國家安全和人權保障我看您剛剛的報告也相當的注重這個人權的保障那但是您說有一種可能是因為社會政治 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
190.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
219.122 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
因素不同而擁有變動之可能性是一種呼應社會現實需要的現實情境的調和這各位再說清楚一點班子們好像是讓大家覺得司法像月亮初一十五不一樣因為社會現實需要的現實情境的融合可以再舉實例說明嗎好謝謝委員的提問也謝謝委員讓我有說明的機會國家安全它是一個不確定的法律概念 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
220.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
238.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
而且對國家安全和限制人權的管制強度跟手段也擁有不同它可能是一個初步的行政管制的限制也有可能是高密度的刑罰或者是這個案例裡面的甚至是驅逐出境 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
239.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
251.047 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
我的意思是說在個案審查核限性時我們在橫著公益跟私益就回到剛剛委員第一章 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
252.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
檢報檔裡面所談的比例原則我們既要去關注那個公益室友的強度也要關注他干預措施的強度我用例子來問您這個4-64號明確的解釋人民團體法容許主管機關與許可設立人民團體權得救人民主張共產主義或主張分裂國土之政治上言論之內容為審查並作為不許可之理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
281.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
嫌疑逾越必要這程度嘛這是六四四號的解釋以憲法保障人民解釋自由和言論自由的不符所以我想請問您下面這四個問題第一個主張共產主義是不是屬於言論自由是主張分裂國土是不是屬於言論自由是主張武統台灣是不是屬於言論自由是主張用刑法一百條來辦在野黨立委是不是屬於言論自由 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
308.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
334.893 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
以上這幾點您都認為這是言論上的主張應該是跟劣勢式的看法是從基本權的角度這個都是言論上的看法就是這些都是一種主張嘛並沒有著手去實施嘛對吧應該你是從這個角度來出發所以這些都是言論自由那但是呢您看到最近我們國家做了哪一樣的事情我們國家對於主張這個無從的這個陸配做驅逐出境這等於是做這個人權上很大的這個侵害這個他 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
337.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
352.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
你的說法跟這個陸委會的說法不太一樣跟我們行政院說法不一樣行政院就是陸委會啦我們在這行政機關認為主張武統台灣不是一個言論自由這是危害國家安全啦那你的說法是嘛所以我很擔心等一下如果民進黨委員詢問的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
354.835 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
379.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們下一題啊 憲法徵求條例第十一條自由地區嘛 我們中華民國憲法自由地區與大陸地區人民權利義務關係其他處理是用法律為特別之規定就是我們說台灣地區與大陸地區兩個人民關係條例就這個條例嘛這個剛剛問過 因為您說過這個 請問您大陸地區的人民是不是中華民國的人民這個您剛剛說過是嘛按照憲法徵求條例來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
381.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
408.26 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
除了這一件剛剛說這個驅逐陸配這個主張武統言論的被驅逐這個人權受到侵害以外齁最近行政機關做了一件事情他要求陸配 陸配 您知道嗎您不知道有沒有關心這個時事就是很多陸配來台灣已經很久了二三十年而且已經取得中華民國的這個身份證明但是我們的政府機關說當時你們證件可能補不齊所以要求你們補除籍證明齁兩國人民公共條約是有規定涉及台灣要繳交除籍證明齁那請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
410.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
429.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
當時在給這些證件的時候也許是補得足或補不足也許有補足也有補不足但是在事後已經經過二三十年後才又要求這個人民繳交當初應該繳交過的文件請問在法律上法律上是可以追溯繳交當初應該繳交的這個繳交過的文件嗎在這個行政措施上你的看法怎麼樣呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
431.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
460.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
你知道我在問的題目吧我了解這個可能會涉及到如果當初在法律的規定裡面就必須繳交對必須繳交但是只是行政便宜讓相對人能夠延緩但是他時候已經取得了已經給他這個相關的證明了對就給他身份證明了一個消極的行政不去執法的作為可否作為信賴的基礎是 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
462.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
480.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
經過二三十年後 或者是有實效性或是有怎樣 我想請教這一點您的看法呢通常我們在學理上所講的信賴保護 或者是不得溯及適用它的前提必須要有一個積極的受益的行政行為 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
481.522 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
507.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以說您的意思是說我簡單說說因為當初是消極的不作為行政不作為所以現在要求他去補當然我知道要求補是一定可以的這個沒有問題但是如果他沒有補的話是不是可以因此而剝奪他的這個就是身份權啦這個公民身份權啦這個中華民國國籍他們已經取了身份證嘛這樣的權利做這樣的這個對人權的侵害跟這個所謂的因為他沒有補交這種比例來講您的看法呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
508.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
524.723 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我的看法倒是不會這麼樣的一個非黑即白的不是非黑即白現在就要執行法律啊這樣沒有佼佼是不是應該被剝奪他中華民國國民的權利呢我的意思是說因為畢竟這是長年以來憲政不積極執法的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
526.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
550.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那在這樣的一個情況之下我們在解決目前面臨到的困境有沒有可能以一個比較這個折衝的方式來解決這個問題所以不過我知道這是後面的話但如果今天行政機關就說好三個月內五個月內一年內你沒有繳交我就是要剝奪你這個身份就是一樣驅逐出境像剛剛那個武統陸配他的言論自由他被驅逐出境那你也認為這樣是合憲的嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.715 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
578.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有沒有因為用國家安全的理由或因為你的行政以前的消極不作為而剝奪人民的這個人權呢有沒有達到變成到侵犯人權的結果呢是不是何憲文好沒關係有沒有侵犯人權呢人權當然有侵犯到但陳儒剛剛跟我原報告其實我們在做如果您身為大法官這樣的事情到了憲法法庭你會怎麼做判斷呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
579.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
585.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還是要看個案當中我剛講的就是這樣案子都普遍都是這樣案子已經是通案了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
586.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
沒有回答 沒關係 好 那個想請問您 剛剛我聽到您在跟這個陳昭之委員詢問的時候他說這個馬英九總統 蔡英文總統 賴清德做的憲法這個就是總統兼任這個黨主席嘛就是兼任黨主席這件事情我剛剛聽您的意見 好像您是贊同兼任嘛因為政黨政治他並不是違反憲法上並沒有違反憲法 但您是贊同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
612.101 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
634.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個是政黨政治運作的現實所以是贊成嘛對不對尊重 贊成嗎所以現在是要進行我想請問您的看法嘛當然尊重我們都尊重啊我們也沒有辦法不尊重啊您的想法今天你如果當總統好了你會堅韌嗎從政黨政治的角度來講 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
636.848 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
657.326 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我認為只要他不逾越憲法上作為總統職權的界限所以您是贊成的好沒問題這個我沒有特定答案我只是想知道您的想法跟您以前一貫主張的想法是不是一貫之2015年的時候我再看到您有一個文章裡頭寫到總統政黨與國會之相互關係裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
660.689 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
680.495 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
以政黨影響國政之憲法基礎的界限中這是您的文章說到黨國分離原則作為法理基礎但是國家的政黨要保持一定距離不容黨政不分基於民主憲政體制所導出的黨政分離原則政黨影響國政領導也應該有其憲法上的界限所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
681.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
709.215 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
如果以黨主席身份為國家影響藍營分析界分為憲政上面由總統兼任黨主席上述國民黨兩黨黨章的兼任規定應該要刪除比較妥當所以在2015年的時候您認為說不應該黨政不分就是說應該政黨的主席跟這個總統不應該不應該兼任但是你2025年的時候想法可能就是覺得說這個政黨政治所以也是一樣 初一十五不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
710.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
710.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
下一題請問您 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
713.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
739.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
中華民國憲法徵修條例第十條第十二項就是有關這個澎湖金門馬祖地區就是中國國家要經過依照民族意願要對這個教育、交通、水利、衛生、醫療經濟、土地、社會福利要扶持、助於發展的辦法與法律這是針對原住民對金馬、澎湖的一樣的民眾也要做一樣這樣憲法上的這個保障我想請您看一下我們金門鄉親上實際上遇到的這個實際上的困境您看一下這個圖 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
740.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
762.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你看這個禁限制水域金門的禁限制水域這個是中華民國畫的依照兩岸人民關係條例29條規定是禁止大陸的船進入這個水域裡頭禁限制水域紅色跟黑色的有沒有看到禁止跟限制水域禁限制水域因為金門離大陸很近你理解嗎在廈門的旁邊所以我們把它畫起來禁止大陸船跑到金門的這個禁限制水域裡頭你們看懂了嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
764.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
793.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那他這個意思是怎樣 限制 禁限制大陸的漁船跑進來嘛大陸的船舶跑進來嘛那相對的我想請問您啊這個可是海巡署在執法的時候反倒是禁止金門的漁船不能超出這個禁限制水域跨出去就變成要被起訴這個禁限制水域原來是在限制大陸的今天變成我們劃地制限啊金門的漁民他的權利呢 他反而不能跑出這個這條禁限制 這些禁限制水域裡頭 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
795.401 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
814.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
您覺得這樣沒有侵犯到我們金門漁民的捕撈權利嗎就我們只能在這個圈圈裏頭捕撈不能超過這條線這條線原來是禁止大陸進來的反而今天執法單位變成禁止金門漁民出去您覺得這樣是正確的嗎然後把他們都移送到地檢署好幾百件 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
818.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
836.238 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為我對這個的前提狀況不是很清楚那如果按照剛剛委員所描述的事況我會理解為那個禁制區確實就是一個禁止大陸地區或者是外國的漁船進入到的一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
840.222 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
852.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那為什麼現在它變成執法單位禁止金門漁民出去啊把我們自己劃起來劃地支線劃起來然後接著如果跑出去船開出去的漁民全部被移送到金門縣政府這個金門縣政府有數百件 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
855.421 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
876.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那這種執法有依法執行嗎?紅線以外是中華民國的臨海管轄區域嗎?這個我不太清楚當然是中華民國啊中華民國啊只是說現在因為我們大陸禁嘛他就畫起來不讓大陸進來嘛結果我們出去也犯法這個東西是不是有疑問啊?好有疑問嗎?你覺得? |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
877.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
894.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
因為我對於基礎事實跟法律沒有基礎事實就跟你講這樣如果我講不對這個當然答案不是就不會是這樣子啊我的基礎事實就是這條線即限制隨意就是二十九條規定了兩年規定二十九條規定禁止大漁船進來那現在我們的人民出去了他說金門漁民也不能出去喔這樣違法喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
897.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
912.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果立法的目的是在禁止外船進入的話那這樣的一個規範確實就是榮有商榷的餘地但是前提就是我剛剛講前提是這樣的,所以這樣的執行會變成怎樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
917.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
931.529 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
這樣的執行會怎樣我剛沒有聽清楚你說如果立法規範確實是這樣子我有立法規範確實是那這樣子的執行現在相關單位 主管單位這樣的執行法律會變成是怎樣逾越立法的目的逾越立法目的好 謝謝您 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
932.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
952.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
再請問你現在美國現在在我們國家在跟美國討論關稅那美國可能提出一個條件就是針對美牛跟美豬的進口的部分要求我們放寬萊克多巴胺萊劑的這種包括標示然後這個牽扯到中央跟地方剛那題台中那個也是中央跟地方陳委員問到也是 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
953.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
981.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
如果我們國家在這個關稅談判以後我們就是放寬了就是說這個接受美國的條件就是萊豬萊牛這些進來的時候不標示不標示產地那這個產流標準比照這個所謂的國際原則就是接受美國的條件接受進來以後請問各個地方政府可不可以記以保障為了學生營養午餐健康為了學生健康的時候要求自行要求在比如說我是金門縣我要求在金門地區的這個萊豬 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
983.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
990.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
豬或是牛標示是不是含有萊克多巴胺這是中央跟地方這個權限你的看法如何呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
991.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1010.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
在萊豬案的前提之下要不要標示含有萊克多巴胺我個人認為這個是地方擁有自行決定的空間但是如果今天我們的情況改變就是透過新的規範將標示義務的規範入法 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1015.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1022.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
標示義務的規範錄法就是他因為有一個跟當初做來案時不同的法規範基礎那就另當別論 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1022.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1050.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
但是在沒有改變的以現在的情形我認為標示跟食材的選用這個是地方有空間的好您的意思就是說假設今天談判的結果這個萊豬萊牛我們因為美國要扣關進來所以我們就答應了美國讓萊豬萊牛標示就不標示但是還有萊克多巴胺的這個豬跟牛進口然後不標示讓他們進來就不標示不標示說有沒有含但是這個進口這個是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1052.614 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1073.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
之前有提到這個產業標準這些都標準是中央訂定的這也回答到但是呢在地方是不是要採用或地方要不要標示比如說我是金門縣政府我就決定說為了保障我們金門地區學生營養午餐的安全我們就要求說要使用在學生的這個營養午餐上面一定要做標示那這個是核限的對吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1074.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1090.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
因為萊豬案的法院的判決憲法法庭的判決的設成範圍不及於標示的部分他只去處理關於萊劑的指定的權限是在中央或地方而已 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1091.95 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1118.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
好 謝謝您那我們在問卷裡頭您有提到德國聯邦憲法法院曾經危害自由民主憲政秩序國家安全委員會將兩個敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散那請問這是您提到的這個德國有這樣的做過這樣敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散請問如果主張消滅中華民國憲法另外創制新憲法在德國聯邦憲法法院標準裡頭是不是符合解散政黨的要件 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1126.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1149.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我再提示一下憲法訴訟法第77條政黨之目的或行為危害中華民國之存在或自由民主之憲政秩序者主管機關得申請憲法法庭為宣告政黨解散這判決那前提就是你有提到德國的聯邦憲法這個法院是說以危害自由民主秩序國家安全把敵視憲法的政黨宣告解散 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1150.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1172.514 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
所以如果我們今天我們國內有一個政黨主張消滅中華民國憲法要另外創新憲法這樣子是不是符合解散政黨的要件如果他的主張是認為我們現行的憲法不合時宜而另行制憲影響到中華民國的存續這個部分我認為不會構成違憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1174.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1200.431 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
意思就是說假設今天我們認為說把中華民國的中華民國這個繼續存在但是把中華民國改國號改為台灣共和國台澎金馬共和國金門共和國中華民國改成金門共和國這也是合憲的是嗎這個跟剛剛那個情況就不一樣因為他的這個國家主權的統一性可能就會改變我剛剛回答的前提是 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1201.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1228.577 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
在認同中華民國的主權前提之下我們制定一部新的憲法這個是可以的這是可以的但是把他改名可不可以呢這個就會涉及到國家存續的所以不能改名但是可以制定新憲好謝謝陳委員謝謝貝提米人下一位請陳俊宇委員詢問 |