| IVOD_ID |
163059 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163059 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T09:53:27+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T10:14:25+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:58 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb2097ea520b68c07b2d8cb5545a92025017d5decb61088774d113b15e738d91a4af85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
賴瑞隆 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:53:27 - 10:14:25 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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好謝謝院長請那個曾文生大法官被提名人麻煩再請被提名人蕭教授蕭抱歉蕭文生蕭教授您好我想先請教一下很多人說去年一整年大概是整個憲法最具有危機的一年也是憲法法庭最具有高度的風險的一年這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
36.875 |
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教授同意這樣的看法嗎不好意思我沒有聽懂你的問題有很多人認為去年一整年是台灣的憲法最有危機的一年同時也是憲法法庭最有危機的一年那蕭教授同意這樣的看法嗎憲法法庭從去年應該是十月以後就沒辦法運作這個當然對於整個憲政秩序的維持 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
65.543 |
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人民權利的保障當然是一個很大的一個影響這點我承認那憲法上呢因為去年大概也是有史以來最多的這個提出違憲的一些爭議的部分那很多人認為去年一整年是憲法上面最具有危機同時也最混亂的一年這個蕭教授同意這樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.939 |
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101.567 |
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我想危機也是個轉機啦可以讓我們可以深刻去體驗我們這部憲法的強韌跟他的弱點那我也希望可以透過這樣的一個機會呢讓我們的憲法更好讓我們國家更好謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
102.677 |
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130.112 |
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好 那我順著這樣來講去年的時候其實憲法法庭有做了一個就是違憲的部分針對立法院所謂的擴權法案的部分很多條文都違憲不管是從包括聽取國刑報告包括反質詢包括同意權甚至於相關的部分我先請教一下蕭教授你都同意去年這一整年憲法法庭的這樣的一個看法嗎 |
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131.107 |
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部分贊成部分可能跟我基本的想法不一樣那贊成跟不贊成可不可以請你也說明一下贊成的部分當然因為很多跟我們這個大法官的解釋一樣比如說對於立法院職權行使法有關於人事權的這個部分基本上沒什麼問題對所以你是贊成的這個基本上沒什麼問題那第二個部分就是說比較有爭議的當然就是國情報告的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
160.367 |
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我想國情報告是定在我們憲法徵求條文只是大家對於這個國情報告進行的方式到底是強制性的任意性的或者這個總統來有沒有必要接受這個 |
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177.438 |
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立法委员的我不敢讲质询因为总统依照我们宪法征求条文的规定是没有要向立法院负责但是类似备询或是国事会议的这个询问那统问统答这个方式呢大家有争议那这一点这个部分来讲因为即使是在宪法学界呢都有不同的意见那大法官呢是采取不能强制然后进行方式呢也没有所谓的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
206.624 |
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231.391 |
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那個質詢當然不用講備詢也不可以這是一派的講法所以說這整體上面你覺得聽取總統國情報告這件事上面是沒有違憲總統如果願意來立法院聽取報告這是沒有任何問題的只是我剛講的就既有的條文的話既有的質詢刑事法上那當然是沒問題因為總統有這個主動被動都有他的權 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
234.372 |
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252.928 |
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但是如果依照後來修訂過的話有些部分已經框進去了其他已經影響到了總統的權限包括行政立法間的均衡照憲法上行政院是對立法院負責所以總統是來得來做報告那來不來包括怎麼來其實都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
253.968 |
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278.023 |
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可以經由相關的溝通和協商這也要尊重總統的意願但是把某些部分明定在上面的時候這已經侵犯到憲法也侵犯到總統這也就是去年大法官會議認定違憲的地方我再請教一下蕭教授您的看法強制性當然是不允許的因為有義務到立法院接受質詢的是因為行政院要對立法院負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.333 |
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303.439 |
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所以強制總統來這個基本上可能在民主責任政治負責上面這個是在法律上是不允許的但是如果總統願意我強調是總統願意然後呢立法院也歡迎甚至總統也願意接受立法院的提問那這個我覺得這是一個在憲政慣例上憲法沒有禁止 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
304.462 |
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321.355 |
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我是說基於大家自願的情況之下這個憲法沒有禁止啊如果可以形成憲政慣例讓各個機關都可以良好的溝通這個我贊成只要不是用法律強制這個其實賴總統也講過他也願意來立法院啦齁但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
322.655 |
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348.885 |
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當藍白的國會多數用強制把這東西加在這個職權刑事法上我認為其實這已經是違憲也就是說他已經侵犯到了總統的權利他的主動權跟他的一些意願這個已經侵犯到了所以我還是要強調我是認可去年這一條被認定為是違憲因為他已經侵犯到了憲法的相關的分工的權限同時間他也侵犯到總統個人的一些權利了 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
350.105 |
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374.89 |
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這樣是擴權了 這樣已經是超越了我們還在強調我們憲法的設計上面是行政院對立法院負責總統是由民選出來的總統可以到立法院來做國情的報告但是那個是基於他的主動跟他個人的意願但絕對不是透過職權新法的修法給予他一定的強制性我認為包括怎麼做怎麼做這個都超出了憲法的範圍所以我認為這個是違憲的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
377.282 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
405.074 |
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接下來我再請教一下其他的部分藐視國會罪的部分您怎麼看 有沒有違憲有關於藐視國會罪這個問題其實大家所比較熟知的藐視國會罪是美國但是我個人是這樣認為只要你是對立法院負責的立法院的質詢 立法院的調查基本上政府官員 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
407.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
426.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
質詢的時候就是首長那其他的官員就是備詢的時候基本上呢不管是在調查或是質詢的時候基本上應該到場這是第一個那當然有例外的規定比如說生病這可以請假這個沒有問題第二個呢至於台灣有沒有藐視國會的這個問題其實當初在585號解釋有對這個問題稍微做一點處理那我個人的立場是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
436.55 |
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454.847 |
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我們不必像美國那麼嚴格說藐視國會就是一個刑事責任這個我覺得太過因為刑法應該是最後的一個手段但是對於所謂的因為這個藐視國會還要定義比如說無故不來在質詢期間無故不來 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
456.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
476.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個某種程度應該是沒有尊重自己也妨害了立法院這時候給適度的處罰是應該的但是這個處罰絕對不是刑事責任所以我蠻贊同這次大法官的解釋就是說把這種藐視國會的責任定在刑法這是不對的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
478.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
507.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
但是我贊成什麼我贊成適度的透過行政責任所以蕭教授其實也認為這個是違憲的行事責任是違憲的因為你有太多如果是政務官他有政治責任要處理甚至於很多行政有行政責任可以處理但是你用刑法決定更何況是這個部分的定義上其實並不存儲什麼叫做藐視國會你的回答不如我意你頂我的嘴你回我的嘴 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
507.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
534.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那你不回答算不算藐視國會那你回答的內容你聲音稍微大聲一點算不算藐視國會大聲幾分被叫做藐視國會就有太多模糊的空間其實會讓所有的行政官員更何況這個藐視國會還涉及到一般的人民你你對不起我還沒講完藐視國會我的觀點只涉及所謂的公務員一般人民不適用藐視國會因為一般人民不用對國會負責 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
536.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
556.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
國會是邀請我來協助你們 行使你們的職權啊那怎麼我來了還要被你處罰 人民我是不贊成的是啊 人民基本上沒有任何的他有什麼非得要到你立法院來接受你的我們講人民還是民主就是人民為主嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
557.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
583.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
哪有人民為主然後我還要被所以還出現很多對人民的這些處罰你司法上都還要有任何有罪才能夠給他處罰的立法院憑什麼因為人民不來或不做什麼就被你處罰這是完全所以我認為這個違憲是非常清楚的那我要順著剛剛問那反質詢的部分呢反質詢的部分所謂的禁止反質詢這個部分蕭教授的看法呢什麼是反質詢什麼樣的定義叫反質詢 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
584.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
589.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
你認同用所謂的講反諮詢然後說造成這些 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
591.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
614.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為質詢的定義在我們國家憲法裡面也沒有規定但是立法院有質詢之權行政院長各部會首長有應邀質詢的義務這個沒問題我想委員應該也是可以贊成的那現在最大的問題就是說因為質詢他基本上在法律沒有一個定義所以反質詢在法律上可能也 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
615.967 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
628.562 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
不容易明確所以大法官在解釋的過程裡面他是不是針對這個有沒有必要性我個人的看法是說他一開始就覺得這個定義違反法律明確性 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
629.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
652.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
大法官也沒有直接的去說到底可不可以處罰而是說這個處罰定的構成要件太不明確了實際上根本沒辦法執行所以他違反法律明確性違反法律明確性之後呢造成了立法院在行使職權的時候很容易逾越職權我覺得他最主要的原因是因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
654.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
682.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
定的太不清楚了實際上沒有辦法執行它是基本上是以違反法律明確性作為它一個違憲的理由同時間違反明確性同時間我認為它對於權力分立上面有造成相當的因為行政立法其實當然這個立法院是在監督執行行政院但是也有相互尊重的關係那如果你所謂的這個反執行下去的話那什麼樣行政機關跟立法機關之間什麼樣的互動就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
683.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
707.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
比如說我現在跟這個蕭教授這邊這樣子我們是一個詢問那怎麼樣在其他狀況下在立法院正式狀況下那是質詢跟官員之間質詢那你怎麼去認定怎麼去認定什麼樣的狀況下是反質詢甚至於有沒有可能因為這樣而導致的行政機關其實變成他沒有辦法善加去比如說我禁止你講話我不准你講話或者是說你講的話這個內容部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
710.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
733.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
就是說他會讓很多的部分反倒不見得因為質詢的過程其實是讓國人更清楚所有事實的真相嘛你當然要讓行政機關官員能夠回覆你能夠說明你那如果你認為行政機關的人對你是嚴重的不禮貌或者是侵犯了那個那有政治責任要負責有行政責任要負責啊那人民也在究責啊人民也追究這些責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
733.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
753.38 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
對於任何的官員如果對待立委是不尊重的人民也會去救責就是說你把那個反諮詢把他硬抓進來這個恐怕不只是剛剛定義不明同時建議可能侵犯到行政立法間的相互權責會讓行政權大量被弱化掉這反倒不利於國家長遠的發展我不知道那個蕭教授同意這樣的看法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
756.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
765.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
有關於這個質詢的問題當然因為我沒有在會場但是我個人有一個基本的想法就是跟沿路免責權一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
767.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
789.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我們中央的言論免責權是沒有限制的但是我想地方的言論免責權是要職務行使範圍內所以立法院的言論免責權在憲法並沒有這樣的一個規定但是我們地方制度法有所以我基本的想法是這樣 質詢只要是在立法院行使職權範圍之內當然我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
792.352 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
806.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
政府官員就有回答的義務但是如果這個質詢已經超過了你的職權行使範圍比如說私生活那這個我們當然不回啊不回也不會有什麼責任問題但是假設是在職權行使的範圍之內 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
808.594 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
822.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你不回答或是彼此之間有衝突當然剛剛委員講的是正確的政治責任政治責任是優先的那政治責任當然包括我對你做口頭譴責 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
823.49 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
843.531 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我對你的預算不通過我對你所提的法案呢不通過這就是政治責任甚至立法委員可以透過自己問政因為我們現在資訊很公開嘛那我也常常在網路上看到立法委員剪輯了他在立法院的那個東西給人民看給人民做最後一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
844.878 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
873.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
裁決這是正確的其實有很多很多的方式有很多的究責方式但是如果你用所謂的反思區這種方式你等於是讓雙方之間沒辦法有充分對話溝通的可能性的時候當如果行政官員過度的時候不要說行政官員 立委過度的時候其實都會負起相關的政治責任都有相關政治責任也都會產生相關的行政責任人民也都在看人民也都會對於所屬的政黨跟所屬的 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
874.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
888.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
給予一定的壓力跟責任所以我認為這個其實你把它用這樣的反質詢反倒是我認為反倒是讓問題更加的複雜化而且是違憲的所以我想因為後面還有那個我就到這邊了那接下來我想要請教的去年的部分採劃法 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
889.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
911.722 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
藍白國會立法院多數通過了這個財務法3753億整個強行修到了放到地方去但是他沒有把錢放下去但是沒有把事權放下去那當然也造成中央的財務上面出了問題那我想請教一下對於這樣的部分但因為後來大法官會已經沒辦法開了你認為這個部分有沒有違憲的疑慮 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
913.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
935.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
有關於中央跟地方財政的收支依照我們憲法的規定這是屬於中央的權限就是中央跟地方財政的劃分是中央的權限所以我們自古以來就有財政收支劃分法財政收支劃分法在京省也就是民國八十八年做了最後一次修正以後到目前為止已經經過二十幾年沒有修正了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
936.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
956.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
所以我覺得修正應該是有必要的只是這個內容到底應該怎麼修正才行但是修正如果沒有經過行政機關的同意而直接就用立法院的多數的暴力表決方式直接表決掉了直接撥出去3700多億錢分下去的事權沒有分下去這個難道沒有侵犯到行政權嗎立法院在制定法案的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
957.583 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
975.177 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
通常可以請行政院來表示意見但是我好像沒有在立法程序裡面聽說要得到但是財政收支劃分國家的財政這屬於行政權的一部分國家財政這件事情是屬於行政權的一部分包括總預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
976.278 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
993.719 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
包括財政這個都是屬於行政權的一部分如果立法權可以透過立法院的多數強行的表決強行不尊重行政權的話這個有沒有侵犯到行政憲法上有沒有侵犯到行政權的問題我想制定法律應該是立法院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
995.553 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1019.426 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
財政收支劃分法我們今天講的是財政收支劃分法不是說中央要把這個預算的時候把錢編給誰那如果單純以財政收支劃分法這個法律的話這應該基本上是屬於立法院的權限當然要做的讓那個法律更好除了立法院黨團大家要認真討論協商之外邀請相關的院 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1021.223 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1044.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
邀請相關的院列席尤其是在委員會的時候列席說明他的立場這個一向是立法院向來的慣例所以我想這個可能我還是要再提醒因為如果照這樣的論點的話那有可能他會讓整個行政機關的權限受到影響我還是要提醒預算權是行政機關的重要的權限要不然為什麼要選出 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1045.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1063.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
總統而任命行政院長為什麼立法跟行政之間相互監督如果照這樣的處理的話這已經傾向於你講的內閣制的精神了那如果內閣制當然就沒有問題但是我們處的不是一個內閣制的精神如果你把行政權用這樣的方式可以整個把財政可以劃分掉的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1064.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1089.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
那基本上立法院可以決定行政機關做任何的事我讓你做什麼我不讓你做什麼這會造成責任政治不清楚到底這件事情比如劃出去之後中央沒有錢不能做這件事情的時候這個責任算誰的要追究的是行政機關的責任還是追究是立法院的責任會完全不清楚我認為這件事情蕭教授可能要再清楚的說明不然這可能會造成社會很大的問題預算的這個制度呢總共可以分成四道程序 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1090.1 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1111.322 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
第一道就是總預算的提出這個當然是行政院的權限甚至如果我記得沒錯立法院的預算案也要併到行政院的總預算案所以預算案的提出一定是行政院的職權這我們憲法有規定但是預算的審議這件事情來講這是立法院的職權 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1112.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1138.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以立法院是可以審議的但是預算的編列跟增加與否這個是由行政機關的權限嘛所以我認為這個部分預算的提出當然是行政院的權限負責人也是行政院負責嘛預算權當然是行政院在做負責嘛對不起我剛剛還沒講完前面是兩道第三道就是預算執行這是各個機關各個院的權限也就是說你拿到法定預算之後怎麼執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1139.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1166.888 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
立法院自己決定 行政院自己去決定最後一個也是很重要的 就是審計審計的制度呢 依照我們的設計 三個機關介入立法院 行政院提出 然後呢 審計部局長代表這我了解了 最後一個 剩一分鐘我再問一下 最後一個啦去年一整年 因為大法官不足因為憲法 訴訟法修改一定要十個人才能做成決定之後整個憲法法庭幾乎被癱瘓掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1168.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1181.505 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
你認為這個部分有沒有涉及到違憲實施癱瘓掉行政大法官會議的問題讓憲法法庭整個被癱瘓掉的問題這有沒有違憲如果就我們的制度來講我們本來大法官是15個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1182.711 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1204.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以法定名額跟現有名額如果一致的話這個規定沒有問題因為我們本來就是三分之二那現行中央有沒有違憲如果這次一樣全部不通過那一樣是無法做成決議嗎所以我的意思就是說原則上這個規定在現有原額跟法定總額一樣的時候運作沒有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1205.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1213.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
但是呢 如果在例外情況之下所以我的意思是說 如果在例外情形讓他這個嚴格的規定讓大法官沒有辦法運作那這個呢 要增設例外規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1256.347 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1256.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好 謝謝 |