| IVOD_ID |
163044 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163044 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T10:36:44+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T10:57:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:25 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb209933273811259596dcb5545a92025017de79da5e98ab413eafa2dab58134a338c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳菁徽 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:36:44 - 10:57:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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| transcript.pyannote[236].end |
1222.47284375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
3.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
3.515 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
蕭教授你好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
4.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
32.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我自我介紹一下我的背景是醫師所以今天我會跟您討論一些醫師管理法律的問題我們最近其實有一些社會矚目案件我不知道你有沒有注意到但是有三位台大婦產科醫師還有一位骨科醫師涉入了性侵或者是性騷等等的事件我會先從婦產科開始談起畢竟這個族群是最容易接觸到女性病患的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
33.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
57.597 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那我要背景介紹一下就是說台大婦產科教授主治醫師還有住院醫師發生了三起性侵或是性騷的案件那有一位黃姓的住院醫師對女性病患猥褻性侵經一審的判處有罪刑期三年目前仍可上訴不過在案發之後呢黃醫師完成了住院醫師訓練並且還獲得專科醫師執照 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
60.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
77.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
更直接在台大有更整的行為另外一位陳教授他也是我們婦產科醫學會的前任理事長他傳出對多名學生研究生性騷擾台大醫院主動的啟動調查經性評會確認屬實最終解聘該名醫師 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
81.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
108.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那前兩週新聞比較大的是一位正性的醫師涉嫌下藥還有性侵多名女性2025年出遭起訴後棄保潛逃現在成為了通緝犯這些醫師的共通點在於就算是已經進入司法程序或者是有正式的行政調查報告他們卻持續執行臨床的業務並且沒有被送懲戒 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
109.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
122.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
為什麼明明醫師法裡面有懲戒的制度可是面臨這些狼藝的問題始終沒有辦法給予合理的處罰問題就在於現在的條文不夠明確這邊我先列出醫師法第25條的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
124.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
152.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
他有兩個機關可以一副懲戒一個是醫師公會一個是主管機關那下列業務上有重大重複發生過失利用業務機會之犯罪行為經判刑確立屬醫療必要的過度用藥或治療行為四執行業務違背了醫學倫理這期款只要是符合其中一項都可以移送可是問題在於過去大家很保守 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
173.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
只有在第二款的規定才敢去送移送那還有這兩個機關會互相推卸責任所以一個案件從發生起訴到判刑甚至有的是過了一審二審好幾年最終都不知道看了多少病人了很多女性的病患是處於風險之中的這是一個超大的制度性問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
175.163 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
198.129 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那所以未還委員會針對這個從1月去年12月開始就不斷的質詢也有辦了專報等等的大家會對於這樣事件極度的震驚啊就連林靜儀的次長在回應我們的說法都說早就可以用違反醫療倫理這一款去移送可是還是沒有人敢這樣做所以我在委員會有提出一個臨時提案是要求呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
199.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
227.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個衛福部可以盡速就違反醫學倫理的內容內涵來做出函釋未來只要是性騷或是性侵這樣子的發生行政調查確立根本就不需要等刑事判決就屬於違反醫療倫理並且希望主管機關也就是衛福部趕快把這個函釋做出來公告上網讓全部人都可以參考但因為您是大法官提名人現在這些被行政調查以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
228.72 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
257.512 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
他們是因為矚目案件所以經過立法委員的質詢才被移送懲戒的狼藝還有很多是在台灣各個角落可能有其他的被害人加害人還躲在陰影中未來這些狼藝有可能一路會上訴到申請釋憲所以您的見解對我們來說格外的重要他們會來跟您吵他們必須是符合第二款才可以被送懲戒這邊要請問您的見解如何 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.324 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
280.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
謝謝委員的提問如果我印象記得沒錯的話有關於醫師的懲戒其實在醫師法裡面有兩個途徑一個是委員所提出來的25條另外好像我如果記得沒錯的話另外在30幾條還有一個是主管機關本來就是依職權就可以停止他醫師的業務的執行 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
282.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
299.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那這個案子呢如果委員有興趣可以去參考當時候在台中因為我在台中書院會也處理過一個那個中醫師摻雜很多奇怪的藥讓一個那個甚至好像是前副議長的兒子死亡的那個案子那個案子的爭執就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.775 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
醫事公會沒有移送但是我們台中市衛生局主管機關運用抱歉我現在忘了不是25條是後面的條文30幾條條文主管機關他本來就可以依職權去停職 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
315.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
343.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
他没有办法去让他的医师因为惩戒的手段很多他没有办法让他丧失医师的资格证书但是他可以暂时让他业务他可以停止他执行比如说一年三年所以假设是现在这个问题的话我觉得不一定因为你要医师惩戒的话要送到那个医师惩戒委员会那医师惩戒委员会又耗时耗力啊那我觉得这个方式不一定是正确的反而是应该在 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
356.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
醫療主管機關自己本身可以依職權去做懲處的時候其實就可以了因為在這裡我想我不曉得委員最後的想法是說要讓他喪失職業資格廢止醫師證書還是暫時讓他這個是懲戒委員會的職責 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
363.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
389.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
是不是讓他只要暫時停止業務的執行因為主管機關能做的跟醫師懲戒委員會能做的不太一樣我剛講的廢止這個證書然後廢止醫師資格這個主管機關不能做這個一定要懲戒委員會然後最後要法院但是如果只是要讓他暫時停止業務的執行因為這樣就可以保護後續的患者 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
389.696 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
415.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
那我如果記得沒錯的話主管機關就可以做我會再去調查但衛福部至今還沒有提出方法要如何讓他們暫時停職那應該是縣市主管機關現在因為有一些還在護航的人會覺得說主要是因為無罪推定的原則所以我們不應該先行移送可是這樣反而傷害了很多受害者的身心靈教授是公法專家 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
416.59 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
433.671 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
你應該會知道說無罪推定是刑事訴訟的基本原則但是他不絕對排除行政機關基於職業監理進行懲戒因此依據醫學倫理規範病患申訴調查報告或是第三方鑑定若能確定行為屬實 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
435.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
449.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
即使未定罪也可以啟動懲戒程序不違憲這是現在很多衛航委員會林靜儀次長還有被害人被害人家屬等等的共識我只是想確認大法官提名人是不是也這樣子的認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
450.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
473.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
有關於剛剛委員所講的這個無罪推定當然基本上那個是刑法的基本原則那同樣的行政法也是不過他有另外規定我舉一個例子給委員做參考在我們地方制度法裡面對於這個貪污圖利的縣市首長一審有罪就可以停止 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
474.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
490.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不用等到他三審確定他主要的理由就是說縣市長他是四年的任期你等確定判決他都已經離職了 卸職了沒有處罰的必要所以他有他的正當理由在他還沒有確定判決之前就可以停他的職務那醫師的 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
493.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
520.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
方式我想應該看他有什麼樣的正當理由比如說保護病患而且他的罪行重大保護病患以至於有必要是不是調查就可以或者要至少等一審我想這個是立法委員的職權可以去斟酌但是如果是一般的醫師的話另外可以參考的就是教師法 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
521.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
537.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
就不是任教師這個等一下我們會提到不過我謝謝蕭教授未來如果有機會的話您可以站在保護這些受害者的公平正義的這方面因為未來一定會遇到這樣子的事件的機會在下一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
539.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
564.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
其實也是有關醫療的公法議題這個問題就是到底要不要把狼醫的資訊公佈在一個平台或是網站上有沒有涉及他們的個人隱私權因為胃黃委員會從今年的1月部長他表示說可以評估這樣子做到7月行政效率非常的差最大的問題就是卡在一個地方我播一段影片給您看 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
568.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
576.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
合格醫師查詢系統是一個沒有辦法查詢的系統主席很不好意思我只是說因為這一路的規劃都有參與所以我跟您報告說他初始的本醫師這樣設計對您剛講的這個部分我們做一下確認在各自法授權的範圍內可不可完全的法務部參事來 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
588.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
601.86 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
各支法哪一條阻卻了醫療法授予的醫師到底有沒有執照要被查詢可被查詢各支法哪一條阻卻了我們要要問衛福部這個醫生到底有醫生的跡象是不是合格的醫生沒有各支法會阻卻這一種行為嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
606.065 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
626.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你不敢說,以前是法務部,現在我想問國發會,國發會有人來嗎?現在是怎樣?這麼簡單的問題,整個政府沒辦的人,我就停?這麼簡單的問題,這麼做到保釣處長、副書長沒辦的人,我就回答?你現在是在爭笑喔?八位我想那個,前面以前是這樣子啦齁,那我想未來我們一定來齁,把他處理好喔這句話我已經聽過齁,很久很久很久了會啦,我已經認真做案什麼認真做案,你不要再這樣了,喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
627.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
648.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
主席,我不曉得怎麼諮詢了,我不能用火冒三丈這四個字來形容我此時的狀況我們拍個專報啦什麼專報,大家都親在公共,什麼都不知道,還說白菜,又搞不清楚我告訴你,我們立法院大家都聽過,都聽得很清楚,只有你搞不清楚這樣你就保證,保證我來做,保證叫我們的議事人員來做沒有搞不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
648.921 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
662.773 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我們很清楚好,那你告訴我你告訴我你的醫事查詢系統可以查到每一個醫生都是不是合法有職照的嗎?不是大聲大聲就好你那個阿孔克力你搞不清楚你的系統根本就是有問題你聽不清楚 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
664.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
675.142 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
現在是怎樣 自己搞不清楚 你說法人聽不清楚我們很清楚啊 哪裡很清楚以前就因為公司法的問題 如果大家在乎我們當然來檢討這樣可以嗎對啊 我就是問你啊 我就是問你檢討什麼 侮辱什麼你現在是在做什麼 你現在是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
680.605 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
686.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
大法官提名 您可以評論一下他們卡關卡在什麼地方嗎醫師的情形我不是很清楚不過就學校來講學校本來在聘任老師的時候就有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
709.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
732.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
藍絲的查詢系統這教育部有提供只是說這個藍絲的查詢系統是人事室他要去負責查詢內部使用不是一般人民所以假設說要開放的話我覺得至少醫院可以有這個類似我們學校裡面人事室這種查詢系統應該是沒有什麼特別的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
732.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
753.834 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
至於一般人民那可能就是另外的考慮我現在知道的就是其實是有狼屍的查詢系統這件事情在我們衛黃委員會已經從去年12月炒到現在無數的委員質詢都卡在這個各自法各自法的問題那我們來看一下左邊是醫師查詢系統右邊是律師 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
754.975 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
775.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
那這個是我本人的登錄啦你可以看到很簡單的資料大概性別、科別、職業地點等等的那您是法界人士您一定也知道像是律師法務部會有職業律師查詢平台而且有兩個平台喔第一個平台是查你有沒有合法的執照第二個平台是查你是否有被懲戒過還有這個懲戒的內容是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
777.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
806.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那律師的懲戒我們要注意不一定是涉及刑責判刑確定才會被懲戒對吧違反律師倫理就有可能被懲戒而且會把這個違反律師倫理詳細的內容列在上面因為律師法有規定律師法第46條是2020年後行政修正的懲戒法院應該將懲戒的決議送達受懲戒人律師公會還有主管機關並且公告之 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
808.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
836.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
醫師更複雜因為醫師對於在職業的過程中患者的身體的接觸是比其他職業多的吧這個您承認吧所以你會不會覺得相對於這個律師查詢系統我們的醫師查詢系統稍顯不足呢是稍顯不足還是大大不足人民應該有權選擇自己所希望的醫師跟律師嘛政府應該有必要提供充分的資訊讓人民去做選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
839.093 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
862.863 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
如果就我的接觸範圍來講因為老師對一個人的影響也很大所以我想不管是家長也好同學也好基本上都不希望有老師在學校所以老師有他自己的查詢系統可是我們的查詢系統可能不像律師那麼樣的公開跟周延但是至少有啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
863.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
884.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
那律師因為他涉及到人民的訴訟權的保障還有他司法權益而且他的這個律師的職業也影響到很重大的公共利益我覺得這樣公開是正確的那至於醫師因為我比較少去看醫師他也涉及到人民的身體自主身體安全涉及到這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
886.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
907.88 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
都是比較後半段但是就現在比較通盛行的醫療人權來講我有自主權嘛我希望選擇一個我認為適當的醫生嘛那我當然也除了這個剛剛委員所提供的這些資料之外我當然除了去打聽他是不是開刀我會開刀之外我當然也希望 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
908.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
935.771 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果他有什麼樣不適宜的讓我知道我覺得這是作為一個現代的人享受醫療人權一個基本的一個立場那這邊就是問到憲法保障隱私權因為釋字603號有指出在重大公共利益或是保障他人權益情況下得在法律明文授予合理限制所以聽起來大法官提名人您認為狼醫的懲戒資訊涉及重大公共利益 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
936.451 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
954.305 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
比如說病患的安全醫療的信賴災犯的風險防治即使屬於個人隱私也可以在比例原則下受到限制與公開嗎剛剛您的論點是這樣是嗎同意嗎對但是公開的方式公開的範圍這個當然立法者可以去做限制跟檢討好 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
955.973 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
985.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
因為這些狼藝的護航者他們可能會不同意未來你也是會遇到他們來打憲法訴訟說他們不願意被公開那我舉這一兩年的例子是上一張這一兩年的例子在健保資料案中憲法法庭是採取中度審查因為健保資料涉及個人病史屬於高度敏感的資訊如果連健保資料這麼私密的資訊憲法法庭都只是採中度審查那麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
986.303 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1009.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
醫師或是教師是攸關公共安全病患還有後備醫師學生們的身體健康信賴保障然後因違反職業倫理 數級形式等等被懲戒揭露的對象並非社會任意公眾而是可能被服務的對象但是從大法官提名人的口中其實可能被服務的對象幾乎是全民了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1010.012 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1028.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
是不是您未來如果遇到這樣子的憲法訴訟您會認為應該可以採取較寬鬆的審查標準呢我們一般這個是每個國家的審查方式都不一樣那以美國方式來講常常會用低度中度跟高度審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1029.281 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1049.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
那我我留學德國我們德國沒有沒有這一套那基本上就是依照憲法23條的規定去去審查他的一個合憲性與否那當然這裡面最重要的就是利益的權衡那剛委員講的就是說站在國民健康以國民健康這個做一個標準化來講的話這應該是我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1052.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1060.892 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
追求很高的公共利益隱私權當然是個人非常重要的利益那兩個人在權衡之間當然我們不能說權有跟權無啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1061.862 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1085.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我會比較贊成要公開但是公開的方法限制跟時間這個可以討論謝謝好那這邊我們就是要跟你討論這個這是您剛一再提到的兒少平台是公開的教育部有亡羊補牢雖然難以徹底的解決任用狼獅的疑慮可是至少跨出了一大步現在醫師法沒有明文強制公告懲戒的規定但是 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1087.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1113.647 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
實務上各縣市的衛生局還有醫師公會是會公告懲戒的資料的那既然這些這個主管機關都已經直接公告了您認為可不可以直接建設平台了因為這個是衛福部部長從1月到現在遇到的問題就是說你的意思就是說建一個平台然後直接對就是你一直在講的啊跟教師類似的平台啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1114.918 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1133.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
指引到其他的工會去看嗎 還是怎麼樣不是 他現在要建立狼藝平台就類似像律師一樣他如果有接受到懲戒 他是可以被查出來的如果懲戒是一個公開資料是政府資訊公開資料 那當然沒問題啊他是現在主管機關的公開資料 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1134.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1153.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
比如說我的縣市衛生局或者是醫師公會我有懲戒委員會開完了有結果了他們是會把他公告出來的而且我也在我當過醫師懲戒委員會的委員我記得他們如果那個地方夠大的話因為公報大部分都只有這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1156.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1173.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
這個中央部會才有但是大的直轄市政府他們也有自己的公報那公報上面就會有那個懲戒的那個但是他沒有很仔細啊他可能沒有很多事實他只是告訴你說某某醫生因為為了什麼被懲戒比如說去上課幾天 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1174.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1202.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
然後他停業幾天這個有但是事實跟理由可能所以這邊很關鍵的許多委員他們希望因為他們可能有獲得選民的陳情等等他們希望可以建置一個完整的平台查詢平台就跟教師律師一樣就想請問大法官提名人這一點您是否認同因為這個教師基本上是由教育部來全權主管不管是大學或中小學 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1203.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1221.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
那醫師的部分我比較不清楚,因為中央我不清楚好,謝謝陳經理委員詢問,也謝謝被提名的蕭教授的說明,謝謝 |