| IVOD_ID |
163043 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163043 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-10 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-10T09:32:37+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-10T09:53:09+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:32 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/2bb0d0af414fb209aff57578e56658d2cb5545a92025017de79da5e98ab413ea7082a9d1d9fc83395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
麥玉珍 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:32:37 - 09:53:09 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-10T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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主席好 有請蕭教授麻煩再請被提名的蕭教授蔓圓好 |
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教授好你在自傳裡面有寫得非常清楚基本人權是所有國家機關設定的目的必須以普世價值作為標準現在的政府用行政命令把遠洋移工排除在勞基法外境內聘僱 |
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與境外聘僱的雙軌制境內聘僱移工每月最低工資850元美金境外聘僱只有550元美金國際媒體報導批評台灣這種制度等於現在奴隸讓台灣這樣論為全球低薪與勞動 |
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剝削的代名詞這套制度導致工資差距400美元這樣不合理的差別的待遇你認為是否合憲這種做法難道不違反憲法第七條的平等權嗎 |
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112.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
首先在我國的人權一般來講分成三種一種就是我國國民的權利一種是你要有20歲以上的人才有的權利一種是所有人的權利麥委員所指導的這個問題這個涉及到工作權 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
114.153 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
120.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那工作權的問題剛好在學說上就有兩派一派是認為這個是身為人應該有的權利一個是作為中華民國人民應該有的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
126.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
151.634 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以這個兩派在學術跟實務界各有不同的說法那早期大家認為是說工作權要保障本國人民所以他應該比較接近是屬於中華民國人民的人權外國人不保障在裡面但是外國人的工作權呢從這個就業服務法開始施行之後其實我們以台灣的勞工跟外籍勞工都同時享有最低基本工資 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
152.355 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
170.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
你看那個趨勢就是說慢慢慢慢工作權應該也要屬於一般的人權也就是說只要作為一個人不管你是本國人外國人都有應該都是這樣那你提供的問題在於就是說對於不同的漁工到底他有沒有正當理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
171.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
190.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
因為第七條平等權不是保障機械式的平等而是只要有正當理由就可以做差別待遇這個是正當理由我知道你是教授有很多要論述但若是 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
191.702 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
206.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
勞工因為行政的效率與產業競爭力而被排除保障是柔弱的差別待遇有正當性嗎你認為用政府用現在用的行政命令自我檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
210.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
214.203 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
檢選的法律所保障的勞工基本的權益這樣是否違反憲法第七條的平等權我問的是平等權 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
223.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
248.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個是行政命令表示我們政府是用在我們的勞工不管境外境內都是台灣的行政命令啊所以我問的是平等權不用你論述那麼多的相關的限制人民的自由權利依照大法官的解釋可以有兩種途徑一個單純用法律一個有法律但是加上法律的授權 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
248.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
267.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
所以你是認同這樣的行政命令行政命令只要有法律的授權前提是有法律的授權但是你覺得這個有平等權你捍衛平等嘛所以我們覺得你捍衛平等權你覺得這樣子有平等嗎我先講就是說只要他有法律的依據形式上就OK |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
268.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
282.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
行事上這樣子是公平的 差異400塊是公平的所以我們勞工是平等的行事上要有法律 接下來平不平等是實質理由就是剛才我講的實質啊一個850一個550 這個是叫做平等嗎到底有沒有正當理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
289.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
305.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個要看到底他的依據是什麼我再猜一下行政命令跟憲法是真當理由所以我問你若未來你當大法官你覺得是怎麼樣才是真當理由對政府在保障弱勢的族群 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
306.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
334.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
基本人權還有勞工權益你認為還有哪一些需要立即改變的地方是我們要的你講的是平等權以你現在要平等捍衛的來去論述不是任何黨派的大法官來論述好嗎好如果要我說各級勞工有沒有這個保障不平等的地方我想第一個應該就是因為我在德國德國對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
336.434 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
344.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
民間的公司跟公務員都有休假而且這個休假是有償的就是給錢的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
347.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
366.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
這個大家都知道每一個國家都會有但是我想說你未來當大法官嘛你今天等於是來面試大法官所以你未來對弱勢有哪一些覺得現在政府做不足哪裡需要改進的地方我想要聽聽你未來你要做的東西 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
366.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
385.962 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
如果一般的公務員也可以有油廠的休假我希望一定程度的企業因為企業有大有小如果是上市的我覺得也應該給予一定時間的油廠的休假這樣才比較符合勞工的 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
389.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
401.644 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
所以你只是認為是這樣子沒有說立即想要改變所以說你的方法就是現在大家政府在進行中不是因為你大法官後才要去改變的 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
403.926 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
426.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
在第二個我想要請教的是我們國際勞工組織第118號漁業工作公約早就明確保障漁工基本權益台灣每次碰到國際的批評就用國內未訂立專法來糊弄我們的勞工過去 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
427.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
429.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
因為我們國家最近也簽了很多施行法那比如說這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
457.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
473.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
公正公約然後兒童權利公約那只要這些公約在我們國家有施行法那我們每個施行法第二條都說公約的內容是中華民國視為法律的一部分這就沒有問題啊所以我們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
473.974 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
501.457 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
在這個兩公約你覺得就用在這樣子的一個保障上你認同嗎你覺得可以嗎只要他成為我們國家的施行法的內容他有法律效力行政機關司法機關當然要遵守這個大家都知道但是因為境外境內還有就是說你認為大法官的解釋是否把國際人權公約當作憲法的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
502.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
523.721 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
伊函的重要依據如果未來有人提起憲法的訴訟 主張違反生成權還有就是工作權以及海上的資訊權我國的司法該如何應對還有其技術力 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
525.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
541.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
應如何定位我們想要的是大法官的回應好 謝謝大法官解釋憲法依據憲法憲政慣例等等那我們目前來講國際公約大法官解釋說我們自己去簽的條約有法律效力 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
541.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
564.361 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那施行法裡面第二條就講各個公約有法律效力那我們在整個國家的運作上面憲法是比法律高一點所以立法院所制定的施行法法律不可能高於憲法這個是我第一個要說明的但是不可能高於憲法並不表示說大法官不能參照公約的內容作為他解釋的理由 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
565.443 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
583.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
直接作為依據我覺得不可以因為公約還不是憲法公約在我們國家是法律的層級而已但是把公約很好的內容作為它的解釋理由將這個解釋理由得出來大家所要的決定這個我贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
584.462 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
610.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
好所以呢現在我講的是這個大法官的解釋依據還有就是說我們生存權工作權以及海上的資訊錢這個部分大家都聽到你都聽到大家也知道這個部分的話現在在海上是很多沒有Wi-Fi沒有這樣的資訊錢但是你認同所以未來希望你大法官的時候你就要去推動還有在於說 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
613.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
639.459 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
人口販運的繁殖法對於遠洋漁工的適用還有被害人的認定也存在很多的漏洞依憲法第22條與國際人權公約國家是否有義務提供有效的救濟與人權交易你認為大法官是否應通過宣誓的表現 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
640.66 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
652.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
推動這樣子的交易強化憲法價值與社會的傳達你覺得有必要嗎好 謝謝國家當然有保護人民的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
653.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
676.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
所以你覺得有必要我們再加強這一塊嗎?義務要怎麼樣履行,當然立法機關、行政機關甚至雇用遠洋漁工的老闆他們要共同去尋找一個大家可以接受的一個方案我覺得國家有保護人民的義務,只是這個義務的施行可能不是只有一種方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
678.018 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
702.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那我覺得是有有這個保護義務但是要怎麼做因為這個涉及到經費的使用等等我覺得這個要如果立法委員可以制定一個大家可以遵守的這個最好如果沒有現有的法律行政機關可以跟這個遠洋公司的老闆坐下來大家共同協商一個暫時性的保護漁工的一個方法這是我的想法謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
704.832 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
722.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
好謝謝我們希望的是說推動更多人知道這個交易所以我覺得問你有沒有必要但是你講的就是覺得好像是部分必要還是不必要所以我們在請教你長期研究憲法與行政法對於法治 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
725.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
748.36 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
司法的制度有深入的了解你是否支持台灣民眾黨推動的法院組織法修正允許重大案件進行法庭公開播送讓民眾跟信任司法看清審理的過程你認為法庭公開播送有必要嗎 你認同嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
750.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
761.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我個人是這樣說啦對一個有正面意見跟反面意見的制度當然大家各有不同的堅持但是我講的是原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
762.418 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
783.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
因為法庭這個概念涉及到很廣那以我們近來所通過的這個原則如果我講錯的話請委員指正就法律省原則公開例外不公開事實省原則不公開例外公開那以這個觀點來講法律省我贊成因為我們的大法官的延遲辯論已經 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
785.376 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
804.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
公開很久了而且大家都覺得大法官在做辯論的時候因為大法官主要針對法律問題所以對法律省的公開我覺得沒有問題除非他有像法律所講的妨害公共利益等等那這個是例外事實省的問題這個應該是所有支持或是反對 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
806.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
831.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
法庭直播比較大的一個核心問題因為我們國家這個40省的定義我們本來是希望一省40省二省就不要重複可是現在最大的問題就是說一二省幾乎在做同樣的事情所以只要能解決這個問題40省再加上貴院所這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
833.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
858.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
通過的有一些例外的規定然後要由法官做最後的裁決那如果真的有妨礙公共利益那是不允許的有妨礙事實的真實發現我們裡面有寫就是我們有寫允許政大案件很明確的我們台灣民眾黨認為現行法官法的內部評鑑程度反華 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
859.359 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
879.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是繁複太多無法有效的監督不適任的檢察官或者法官能讓不當的行為無所遁形形成威懾力所以你認為法庭 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
880.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
908.868 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
公開播送你認同我覺得我們這個就是很好但是說你不支持的部分你有沒有替代方案這樣子的話才是我們想要的因為你認同我們真的覺得也很開心的但是說你有一些不認同的部分你有沒有什麼替代方案例如就是說我們的金華城就是金華城案民眾質疑檢察官徵訊不當 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
911.549 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
936.385 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
黨檢媒直接輸送就像檢察官在審查就直接到媒體了就用傳證記就過去了現行監督機制如何應對類似的爭議公開播送讓司法過程公開透明增進就是公信力你認為公開有哪裡不妥的地方我希望你就是提出替代方案 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
938.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
950.027 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
公開最大的問題就是因為一般民眾在提公開的時候大概會涉及到兩個面向一個就是這個俗稱的空中的這個交換這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
952.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
956.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們有說 允許重大方案不是普遍的剛才你說法官也有選擇或者是我們的個案都有選擇這個是我們是台灣世界有民主所以希望你提出更好的如果我們公開使檢察官與法官更謹慎行事 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
980.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
998.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
未來你擔任到法官你認同法庭公開播送這個是我們覺得是找回民眾對司法的信任也是提升司法的威嚴所以你是認同的嘛所以呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1001.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1008.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個部分我覺得你當大法官的時候 你看要怎麼樣去有一個更好的提出方案能有一個長一點的緩衝時間 我覺得這是更好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1011.924 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1035.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
台灣民眾黨主張從民事與行政的案件事辦法庭公開直播以徵地風險測試的可行性例如就是我們現在的金華城案以你的憲法與行政法的研究專家事辦是否能夠提升司法透明是否 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1036.016 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1043.422 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
就是合憲就是現在符合的憲法原則你是否支持這樣子的事辦策略 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1044.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1067.616 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
第一個就是說其實法庭直播跟國民法官對我們國家來講司法都是一個很大的新制度的這個引進那國民法官的推動時間相對比較久不過國民法官一開始推動的時候所以你支持嗎事辦策略而已策略可以但是不能用細數的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1068.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1078.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
國民法官在試刑的時候是用以前已經確定判決的案件我們是說例如而已沒有說沒有結對因為我們在修法的過程中民進黨不斷的帶風向啊稱法庭公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1086.175 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1103.061 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
播送會讓司法變成就是公審秀場把人民看見的審理過程接近司法做了片面的還有負面的解讀當實際上判決書早就在網路就示意的解讀 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1103.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1121.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
甚至曲解你不支持是還是因為有其他的方案不能說支持個案我們是例如而已所以我們是要增進民眾對司法的信任現在的司法任由就是不完整媒體敘述的 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1123.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1143.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
誤導的大眾由非專業輿論的決定司法的形象不如讓公開就是才呈現完整的呈現由人民來判斷也還是認為你應該繼續讓說只讓外界只看到就是端端起義的片段你認為黨媒 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1146.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1174.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
當減沒一條龍的政策嗎若你沒有信任我們的人民那司法如何讓人民信任呢我們要的事就是那麼簡單所以希望說你要去好好就是為了這件事情來去做更好的準備當大法官一定要就是中立你樣子是做了是大法官的人民的大法官不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1176.436 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1196.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
黨減煤的大法官因為司法公開是全球的氣勢法庭公開播送不是新鮮事而是重建人民信任司法關鍵的一步若你真心支持司法更透明更貼近民意就應該支持民眾黨的修法 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1197.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1223.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
推動司法並制定明確的規範我們期待你提出具體的建議協助法庭公開播送從試驗走向常態讓司法不再是黑箱讓人民真正成為監督者這個就是我們需要的大法官人民的大法官找回我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].start |
1228.561 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].end |
1233.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[57].text |
好 谢谢麦亦臻委员询问也谢谢我们肖教授的答复 |