| IVOD_ID |
163039 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/163039 |
| 日期 |
2025-07-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
全院委員會-11-3-4 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
4 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
全院委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-07-09T15:44:31+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-07-09T16:05:55+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:21:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/29dd8432533c2d5867526c16f3216707914535bb497189efda591dfa3bf307f8dff46f77a105961a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
翁曉玲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
15:44:31 - 16:05:55 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-07-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
第11屆第3會期第4次全院委員會會議（事由：總統咨，為司法院大法官含院長、副院長，現有缺額7名，茲依據中華民國憲法增修條文第5條規定，提名蔡秋明、蘇素娥、蕭文生、鄭純惠、林麗瑩、陳慈陽、詹鎮榮7位為司法院大法官，並以蔡秋明為院長、蘇素娥為副院長，咨請同意案。） |
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主席好,在此有請背題名人再請背題名人說明 |
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48.467 |
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法官您好您這次被提名為大法官和司法院副院長這兩項重要的職位那麼被提名為大法官我想最重要的職責就是直施憲法的解釋扮演憲法守護者的角色那麼另外一個位置也很重要這是要去領導司法院和所屬的法院以及相關的司法人員 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
49.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
那么建立起司法独立以及公平审判的工作环境以及制度那在您今天的报告当中本席也拜读过了也提到您也知道现在人民对司法改革最深的期望就是希望有一个独立公正专业而且有效能的司法 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.325 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
97.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
可是我想今天在此之前已经很多委员有提到其实这些年来人们对于台湾司法的信赖度一直都是偏低根据很多的民意调查甚至学术机构的调查其实台湾民众信任法官会公正公平审理案件的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
98.143 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
115.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
大概就是差不多20% 30%左右那么在最近的TVBS的民调当中也针对赖清德总统他就职周年各项的施政表现来进行民调结果没想到最后一名竟然是司法改革 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
116.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
142.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
说实在话看到这样的民调我自己身为法律人我也感到非常的痛心这代表就是这么多年来甚至在蔡英文总统当时头口深声的说要大力的推动司改但是没有看到有任何的明显的成效我不能说没有成效是真的没有明显的成效所以在这边我想请教您您自己本身担任法官超过30年 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
143.169 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
158.219 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
您怎么看待台湾的法院不被人民信任的这个问题基本上我觉得司法它不是一个容易去讨好的一个 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
184.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
一個工作就是譬如說我們的審判會有判就是有一半人會輸或者是刑事案件是把被告關到監獄裡面去所以基本上他是一個做處罰或者是判別人輸贏的這個角色他比較會有一半的人是不滿意的這是有可能但是呢人民對司法的這個鞭策跟他們的他們的感覺他們的信賴感我覺得這個是我們一定要去 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
185.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
211.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
去重视并且要不断的去努力了我刚刚有特别讲过早期我们是在追求审判独立现在我们追求的是司法为民所以要以民意为依归要以人民的感受为感受好谢谢贝提米人的回答本身要这边强调就是整个台湾的司法的法治系统我们是效法日本跟德国当然近些年来也参考不少美国的法治 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
212.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
226.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我相信您一定知道日本的国民跟德国的国民对于他们的司法的信赖度有多高德国的国民信赖这个德国的司法系统的满意度是高达七成八成 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
227.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
249.629 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
但是我們台灣這個形成這麼多年而且這個不同的不同界的司法院長也都大力的推動司改但是這個司法信任度是美下玉礦那我想對一般人而言其實評價司法公正其實最簡單的方式就是看到底司法有沒有雙標是不是法律之前人人平等 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
250.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
263.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
是不是王子犯法與庶民同罪我覺得這是一個非常簡單的指標您自己擔任刑庭法官多年您過去曾經有遇到過有庭審的案件嗎庭審 對 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
264.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
282.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
停止审判的案件几乎没有几乎没有除非是当事人生病很严重那种所以你自己本身在过去30年的审判的生涯当中你没有遇到过停审的案件当事人生病了他没有办法进行诉讼这种情况也有 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
282.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
304.603 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那大概最長是庭審多久時間庭到他的身體狀況可以所以我們大概會定期的去函詢醫院大概平均呢所以你們會定期的也會去見數不多那我在這邊跟您講台灣其實有出現一個大概舉世無雙的一個案子就是有庭審超過十年的案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
305.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.596 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
甚至本席去跟这个缴证署那边调资料还有人保外就医超过二十几年的那么为什么会有这样的一个情况我想陈水扁的案子您应该非常清楚他从2015年开始就申请保外就医那么2015年的5月13号他就申请这个裁定停职审判 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
330.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
343.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
但是在這個案子因為當時是這個犯了洗錢罪那這個案子就去依託多年那北院何怡婷在去年5月20號就認定陳水扁犯的這個洗錢案的追訴時效已經過期 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
345.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
370.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
那麼所以就判陳水扁免訴當然現在這個案子還在上訴當中那麼最新是現在高院已經也受理有完成分案了還要再針對到底是不是免訴的這個議題再繼續進行審理可是您知道嗎陳水扁到現在還有幾個案子是庭審當中這個數字我沒有去特別記現在還有三個案子還有三個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
372.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
397.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以为什么我刚刚讲就是人民对于司法会不信赖以陈水扁这个庭审案来讲就可以知道有哪一个台湾人民这个可以像陈水扁这样的一个生龙活虎然后常常在外面演讲啪啪噪的一个受刑人可以庭审这么久而且甚至有个案子都已经庭审拖过这个16年的时间然后竟然被判免诉 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
411.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那接下來的三個案子呢是不是也一樣會拖過去所以你未來假設有幸能夠成為司法院副院長你要怎麼去改變這樣的情況能夠讓人民認為說其實司法不是雙標不是遇到權貴就轉彎 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
415.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
438.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
法院会裁定停职审判应该就是有依据的比如说有医生出具的证明等等的那因为这几个案子现在都还在细数中所以我们就细数中的案件我们就先不评论好我想在这里我就是提出这个案子要让这个被提名人知道为什么人民对于司法不信任这就是一个活生生的例子 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
439.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
455.971 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
好那接下來呢我要再講的就是賴靖德總統他日前也講有提到就是在五五憲朝或是1946年所通過的中華民國憲法台灣沒有派員參加請問這句話是符合歷史的史實嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
458.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
480.858 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
這個部分是總統的發言就是他應該有他自己的依據那我們也不變評論但是這個是不是事實台灣是不是真的沒有支線代表去當時台灣省沒有派支線代表去參加支線據我在網路上面看到的就是有不同的說法或許利用這個機會大家就是會去找出相關的史實來進行討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
482.739 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
505.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我覺得是還不錯的機會可以討論您接下來身為司法院副院長的提名而且要當大法官您應該要了解制憲的歷史明明就是台灣當時就有審議會就選出制憲代表然後參加南京的制憲 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
507.608 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
520.18 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那您才說這個有不同的意見我在這邊我真的覺得很不可思議在這邊的話我希望你要能夠了解這個就是事實台灣省當時就是有派出制憲國民大會代表去參與制憲的會議 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
522.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
544.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
這就是事實賴清德現在今天他說錯話他不更正道歉就算了但是您作為一個副院長的被提名人同時大法官的被提名人竟然連我們的制限史都不清楚這個本性感到非常的這個訝異那接下來我要再請教您賴清德總統曾經說過中華民國憲法是災難這句話您認同嗎中華民國憲法是我們要守護的對象是所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
551.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
577.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
即便它可能有些不完美的地方但是我們還是要全力守護中華民國憲法所以在這樣的一個情況之下我想請教就是說因為作為大法官作為憲法守護者解釋憲法當然要重於憲法而憲法涉及到國家定位的問題請問在中華民國憲法的架構底下目前是如何去界定兩岸關係您如何去界定兩岸關係 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
578.876 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
605.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
憲法裡面規定說兩岸關係是有就是另以法律定制在徵修條文第11條是另以法律定制所以我們後來才有這個兩岸關係條例的訂定那兩岸關係條例要怎麼訂定因為它比較涉及到很多的方面所以我們是尊重好不好意思打斷您的話那簡單來說就是目前兩岸關係到底是兩區關係還是兩國關係這個是關於這個政治問題跟統治行為並不是大法官解釋的範圍 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
607.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
628.367 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我感到很訝異 蘇法官 這個事這麼清楚就訂定在我們中華民國憲法還有兩岸人民關係條例裡面的規定您竟然說這個是屬於政治問題這不是政治問題吧 這是非常單純的憲法問題跟法律問題在國家統一之前 中華民國憲法就已經明確地講到 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
630.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
651.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
自由地區與大陸地區在兩岸人民關係條例你也是講臺灣地區與大陸地區連這樣子的基本的這樣的概念您都不敢不敢說不敢去認同我們現在的國家定位嗎不是就是法律的規定我們一定是遵守的是所以你認為我們是不是屬於一國兩區的憲法 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
656.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
665.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
憲法並沒有這樣的一個對憲法裡面現在概念就是中華民國憲法但是我們涵蓋大陸地區跟台灣地區就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
666.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
688.217 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
關於領土的部分確實大法官曾經有一個解釋說是我們不解釋就是是我們不介入這是呃這個我我真的是感到很要你連這樣子的一個簡單的命題你都可以呃很怕會得罪賴清德所以呢你不敢承認我們中華民國憲法現在所涵蓋的就是大陸地區跟這個呃 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
689.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
715.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
跟自由的台湾地区好那接下来我再次问就是最近呢这个有出现了一个新名字我们过去在讲立法院所制定通过的法案一般民众可能会讲我们这个是不是属于民生法案改革法案国安法案等等那么或是有些人称所谓的福国利民法案但是最近赖清德在团结第三讲当中他提出了一个新的类型叫做政治对抗法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
716.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
737.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
並且請大家看看現在在野立法院所通過的法案到底有沒有是福國利民法案還是政治對抗法案所以我想請教您您認為什麼樣的類型的法案是屬於政治對抗法案我對於總統所提的這個政治對抗法案沒有了解所以他的這個團結三講你到現在也還沒有去看 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
738.534 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
756.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
就是就政治对抗法案的部分我没有很清楚好那我接下来我就请教你你下几个法案你认为是福利法案是属于福国利民法案还是政治对抗法案首先军人待遇条例的修正我们这次修正军人待遇条例增加志愿意和义务意的加持待遇你认为这是 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
757.208 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
780.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
民生法案是有利于军人的法案吗属于福国利民法案吗还是属于政治对抗法案这个我觉得它就是一个三读通过的一个法案然后对军人是有利的那警察人员人事条例我们这次也修法提高警消人员的月退所得替代率这是福国利民法案还是政治对抗法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
782.094 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
794.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我跟剛剛答案是一樣的跟剛剛一樣的那柴建收支劃分法的修法調整中央與地方的稅收的分配的比例這是對抗法案嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
795.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
818.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個會涉及到權力分立垂直分立的部分那因為我自己沒有財政的背景所以如果委員要詢問的話我會再去了解另外憲法附送法的修法提高大法官的開會人數門檻和做成違憲判決的評議門檻這樣的修法是政治對抗法案嗎要看怎麼定義什麼叫政治對抗 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
820.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
844.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
這是賴清德總統他所提出的他認為我剛講這些法案都是政治對抗法案甚至連公職人員選罷法修法連署人要附上身份證影本這也是叫做政治對抗法案所以如果說這些都是叫政治對抗法案的話那麼大法官在面對這些政治問題的時候您認為是不是應該要自治退縮而不宜介入審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
846.417 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
860.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
確實到法官在面對政治問題的話就之前的釋憲的實務是認為政治問題不要介入政治問題政治解決是的那麼謝謝您在剛剛說明賴慶德總統很清楚的把剛剛那些法案都視為他是政治法案 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
861.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
886.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
現在是政治法案涉及政治問題我希望大法官之後在審查到底這些案件要不要受理的時候應該要注意這些屬於政治問題大法官應該要自治節制不宜介入審查接下來我還要再請教您您在過去長年審判生涯當中您曾經判過死刑嗎有大概有幾件死刑案 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
889.778 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
914.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
就是如果是主審的是一件如果是陪席的也有有一些已經因為太久了解大概就是大概也反正也不多嘛那就是譬如說法官的身份您個人的立場是支持廢死嗎我剛剛有回答過就是說廢死就是他不應該是一個非黑即白的問題對然後我就是站在法官的立場就是我是根據法律還有證據來做判斷 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
916.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
942.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
了解 那么因为这次的这个宪判制113年宪判制8号的所谓的实质费的判决其实引起了民怨那么您自己本身怎么去看待宪判制8号的判决您认为里面的这个大法官所做的相关的解释您都接受吗 还是有没有一些不同的意见对于宪8 就是刚刚有提到说因为我是其中一个案子的 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
944.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
968.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
的陳審法官所以對於現巴就是可能比較不適合發表評論就是就是我們陳審案件的法官對於對於對於這個相關的案件法官的判決都已經做成了也沒有說什麼好這個不適合去評斷的話不過因為呢呃本期在看到您自己的自傳當中啊裡面有特別講到說你非常重視被告 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
969.285 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
997.406 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
与被害人及家属诉讼权益的横评问题那在这次的113号的宪判之八号的判决里面要求各级法院的合议庭法官一致决然后对于精神障碍或是其他心智缺陷者不能判处死刑那么即便是发生在判决之后或是等待执行期间也是不能够判决死刑那外界普遍都认为说这号宪法判决是严重的倾向被告还有杀人犯 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
998.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1024.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
那你認為這樣的判決符合您對於所謂的要把被告與被害人的訴訟權益橫平的標準嗎?縣八這號判決裡面確實對被害人的部分比較少琢磨在言辭辯論的時候好像也沒有被害人的代表到現場那這個部分我覺得將來如果有機會或許在其他的解釋裡面可以就在做補強 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1025.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1048.621 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
對於被害人的保護我覺得是就是我們大家共同的目標OK好很高興聽到您剛剛的這樣的意見那麼確實這一號判決我認為說之後有機會的話其實大法官還應該要做另外的判決再來做一些補充或是做調整的解釋那麼當然另外一個議題就是說在這次的現判八號現判八 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1050.943 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1078.537 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
的这个判决里面特别强调有关于法官一致决那这个也引起了很多学界还有民众社会上面的讨论那么特别是对在国民法官的审理案件上面如何的适用因为您刚刚有说这个大法官的宪判之八号解释他的设成不包含在国民法官审理案件但是事实上他的确会造成一个很严重的影响我们这样讲好了如果说今天国民法官 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1079.157 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1102.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因為現在整個國民法官的法庭總共是九位六位是國民法官然後三位是職業法官如果今天六位國民法官做了一致決的判死決定另外的三位職業法官有兩位是贊成判處死刑其中一位是做出不同意判死的投票請問能不能判處死刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1103.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1124.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
根據憲判八的意旨就是職業法官三位都要一致所以也就是說等於一位職業法官的否定他就會否決了其餘的八位法官的意見是吧也就是說這一位職業法官他只是擁有龐大的否決權這是不是出現所謂反民主的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1126.681 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1144.87 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
這個大法官在這個說明裡面他有提到一點就是說這是避免跟其他普通案件的職業法官的判決產生不一致的不平等的狀況因為我們的國民法官的案件也可能會轉軌成為普通就是由一般的法官來審理那就是對 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1147.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1175.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
我本身是認為大法官當時在做相關的判決的時候根本沒有思考到國民法官案件的問題他也可能不清楚國民法官是怎麼投票的那今天做成了這樣子的一個決定然後司法院也跟著附和這會造成就是說到底我們當初推國民法官的目的是什麼不是就希望國民法官能夠實現心中的正義嗎是不是有辦法實現正義嗎不行啊因為他只要被一位職業法官他就被打敗了 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1176.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1201.556 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
所以這個問題是很嚴重的好那接下來本期要再講就是說是剛剛有提到有關於就是其實蠻多人基本上現在對於大法官的憲法判決都有一些批評或是有表達不同的意見您認為這個人民您是否支持人民可以用公投也是用更大的民主的方式來表達對大法官的判決贊同與否的意見 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1203.496 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1229.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
公民投票法它的性質就是在學術上面有人認為簡單來說您知不支持嘛您知不支持人民可以通過公投的方式來表達對大法官判決的意見贊成與否的意見我支持還是不支持因為我的時間快到了公投法所規範是人民的創制跟覆決那就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1283.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1283.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
好 謝謝 |