| IVOD_ID |
162857 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162857 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-25 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-27 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
27 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-25T11:13:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-25T11:28:26+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:51 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3c0085a4689617f519ebe39b160bc869d00eebfa22cd2c4c7cefc3e4f112f4f0858267200b5a9bf45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
徐欣瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:13:35 - 11:28:26 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-25T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員王定宇等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第五十四條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十三條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員張宏陸等30人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員王義川等16人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員陳素月等18人擬具「詐欺犯罪危害防制條例第四十七條條文修正草案」案。【第六案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】） |
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891.31784375 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
4.271 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
謝謝主席本席先請法務部次長請到法務部次長委員好次長好第一次遇到您還是我本家的許家首先今天要跟您特別談我想很多人談詐欺現在民眾最大的痛苦 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.724 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
53.008 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
本席也在院會也多次質詢被詐騙就是很痛苦了但是沒關係怎麼樣可以減輕他的痛苦就是他被詐騙的錢能夠想辦法返還回來對不對所以我們這邊有一個我們今天談一個詐欺犯罪危害條例第47條 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
56.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
68.861 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
这个诈欺犯罪他如果有自白或者是犯罪所得自动缴交可以减轻其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.034 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
96.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那我們在這邊我們是不是同步也請司法院今天有沒有人來有我們請吳法官就是我們看到這個最高法院113年度台上大字第4096號的裁定他說只要詐欺犯自白並且繳回犯罪所得那人可獲得減刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
98.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
123.785 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
那這樣的見解就變成如果我們受害人他被騙一千萬結果那個車手他可能一千萬車手只拿到假設十萬那他繳回十萬那他就可以減輕刑責的話那會不會我們擔心最後就變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
125.22 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
153.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這一些詐騙集團他就車手一直換一直換因為他還可以宣傳說沒關係沒關係這個這個可以減輕刑責那這樣我們的利益這我們這個剛剛念的第47條他希望被害人獲得賠償而且呢有效溯源就是我們其實還要找到上游的這有點背道而馳 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
181.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以這個部分的法令好像定的變成我們不僅沒有幫助到我們的被害人被害人損失五百萬一千萬還個十萬甚至五萬他說我才拿兩千塊當然證據查到也許真的通常第一線的車手拿的少那所以這樣變成我們的法令並沒有讓整個 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
184.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
209.378 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
這個詐欺這個詐騙減少本席手上也看到一個很可怕的數字今年五月就上個月光是一個月詐騙就一萬六千零三件整個總財務的損失是87億這很可怕我們之前可能一整年也才不知道這個幾百億或幾十億現在呢可能一年都是幾千億 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
210.643 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
223.873 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以這個部分你們的看法怎麼樣報告委員我想最高法院的這個裁定他對於犯罪所得他採用的是被告的一個報酬說 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
224.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
247.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那他整理是比較狹隘的他解釋上他是犯罪所得那你覺得要不要修法你覺得要不要修我們尾以尊重可是這個會有一個風險就是被告以後只要自白而且片面控訴片面喔對片面控訴就是說我只有我沒有所得甚至於我的所得只有一千塊他只要把這一千塊繳回來他就可以減刑我想這樣的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
249.387 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
258.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
這個跟我們原來立法的意思就完全是不符合所以我們現在就考慮我們用修法的方式我們把條文犯罪所得這四個字 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
277.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
沒有沒有我們的草案在行政院什麼時候要送出來一個月87億一萬多件但是對於委員今天的提案我們也都提供建議我們是希望採用另外一個方式我剛剛問的是你們已經有了你們有草案了因為我跟你講你們很專業 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
279.019 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
305.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你們可能比我們立委什麼都專業你們在立行政院什麼時候要送過來我們可以用建議我們的設計是這樣他如果詐騙集團騙了一百萬他用了十個車手十個車手一個人都騙十萬領十萬他們報酬可能只有一千塊或是五千塊我們今天如果要求車手每個人都要賠一百萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
306.764 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
324.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那這樣子對某些車手他乾脆就不自白了太多了那如果我們把他設定說由你自己去跟被害人和解跟調解如果被害人也認為說對沒錯你給我拿十萬你願意賠償這十萬的部分法官得減輕刑刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
325.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
338.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
所以你們是贊成這個立場今天有委員提我也有簽署我們是希望盡量多一點讓被害人接受說就他的部分我願意跟他和解只要他履行支付了但是你剛剛舉例是100萬是10個車手對同一個人騙100萬嗎對 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
345.291 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
373.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那可是如果今天騙的這個第一線的他可能騙走他五百萬但是中間有中油還有上油但他真的只拿一百萬呢我們現在針對的是這一個行為人他可能是車手可能是車手頭我們就看他所造成的危害有多少那本席是想建議就是說是不是可以返還金額還要有一定的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
373.718 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
390.833 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你比例太少比如說他被騙一千萬結果他只返還他好啦一百萬或剩五十萬這個對被害人來說還是差太遠嘛所以是不是可以你今天如果返還金額不到一定的比例你供出上游我可以給你減輕 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
392.045 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
396.467 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
可是不能說隨便我五千塊了事我就拿五千塊有嗎你們有這方面的不是另外一個我是針對他如果這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
405.031 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
423.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那被害人覺得說我一毛都拿不到跟你協調我我多少拿個幾萬塊回來可是這樣還是不夠我本席建議我們的任何一個法你要減輕他一定要不要all要end就是說還有他要供出上游 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
424.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
434.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
才可以減輕甚至如果他不公出上游你一律羈押你們有沒有這樣的這樣的一個那個羈押是由檢察官個案認定跟法官的裁定所以 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
438.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
463.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那個我想我們希望啦就是你還是你的法令要真的有效打擊犯罪然後供出上游因為現在很多詐騙集團他都是底下的被抓所以你案件多到不行啊所以供出上游這個可不可以列為減刑最重要的他等於是必要條件必要條件有沒有沒有可以免除其刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
464.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
488.105 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
不是只有減輕而已可以免除其刑所以只要供出上游就減輕整個免除其刑就沒有刑責還要自白還要符合前面的自白跟當事人如果有和解也要履行和解條件然後再供出上游或者是因此查扣所有的不法所得那個被害的所有的金額我們才會給他 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
490.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
509.471 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
減輕或者是免除畸形好OK那最後一點點時間本席再問一個問題這個我不知道這個應該是不知道是內政部長還是我們法務還是都有包含銀行局那謝謝法官那您可以先回那現在我們還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
511.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
538.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
針對詐騙受害者所有銀行帳戶還要被列警示告誡帳戶限制使用這個是加重受害者的痛苦啊我想你們應該知道現在很多的實務包括老實講我們在立法院的助理還有地方民意代表的助理甚至很多公務人員因為現在詐騙被受害就是被詐騙者受害者太多了那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.551 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
569.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
詐騙被害人他被標為警示帳戶之後他的生活還有他的薪資帳戶整個都被凍結了即便法院還他清白了可是因為過30日的訴願期限他還是沒辦法解除告戒戶的身份陷入長期困境所以我想因為時間關係我也不講太多就是這個方向那我們覺得是不是應該就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
572.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
579.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
有關這個帳戶的部分你應該要分你要分成它是高中低的風險這塊是法務部的 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
584.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
610.041 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這個帳戶的部分是哪一個單位是金管會那請金管會來我看一下不好意思金管會只有來組長還有還有銀行局拜託也來一下王副組長不好意思委員那個告誡是這邊不好意思委員有關告誡戶那個是法務部那個規定他們之前已經有找法務部規定了你們不要互推我如果是告誡的話那個他們就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
613.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
637.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
現在帳戶沒有依金流和行為模式分成高中低風險你一刀切全部都僅是帳戶現在很多人他已經夠可憐我就是受害者結果我的帳戶我所有帳戶我不是只有被不小心被騙的那個帳戶我所有這個名字這個身份證字號的所有帳戶被你凍結我都沒有帳戶可以用 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
638.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
654.658 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那在生活上造成很大的困擾包括跟他的家人什麼的這個問題很大所以這個部分我們希望是不是可以來改進不是 他說要分級分級誰的權利 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
657.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
684.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
好那我這樣子啦 除了這個分級還有整合刑事和行政程序有沒有辦法建立一站式的救濟窗口這個是告誡本身是這個行政處分那不符的話本來就可以提起訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟這本來就已經或不起訴處分者是不是可以啟動他三日內出審解除程序這一個有沒有可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
685.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
706.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
不起訴處分跟告誡沒有關係他或不起訴處分的那這個是不是可以為低風險帳戶然後就解除它整個你把它變成警示帳戶的程序今天提供帳戶的原因很多種有些原因是檢察官認為不構成 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
708.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
731.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
詐欺行為所以不起訴處分可是他還是把帳戶提供給人家使用所以才會被告誡是列為警示帳戶所以這跟不起訴處分構成犯罪是不一樣的那這樣子的一個不起訴處分跟原來的告誡是不一樣是沒有絕對的關係那就告誡的部分是可以達可以尋求訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
732.776 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
752.375 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
那現在就是說你剛剛講某一種情況嘛但我們現在就是說他是受害者我是這個戶頭轉出去他就是因為他中間有一個提供他的帳戶給別人來使用是這樣才會被告誡他不是這樣的情況他的帳戶還是被凍結啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
755.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
782.563 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
而且還有他現在就是說他就是受害者他的帳戶一直被凍結這種情況就是這種情況你們有什麼方式可以幫民眾能不能盡速幫他幫他審查然後解除程序有沒有這樣的一個機制這個真的很多人耶真的很多人耶我知道講起來我說他本來就是告誡就是行政處分本來就可以用訴願跟行政訴訟來救濟 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
784.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
801.307 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你要用訴願跟行政訴訟他跟不起訴處分沒有絕對的關係那是不一樣的東西那現在如果是低風險帳戶有沒有辦法建立一個譬如說一週內或三日內幫他解除這個帳戶的程序有沒有辦法解除帳戶的程序應該不是法務部是哪個單位 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
810.714 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
834.777 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
這個一定要有一個答案現在沒有辦法依照現有的規定直接就把它解除沒有辦法那現在你們可不可以去想一下受害者他是受害者他這個途徑就是行政訴訟現在是只有行政訴訟我懂也有一些人有拿到法院的判決有人拿到 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
835.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
850.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
不是啊現在我的意思他就是受害者那很多事情釐清之後能不能有快速的程序我的問題一直是這樣我知道可以嗎你們現在有辦法去研擬這樣的一個對民眾方便的可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
853.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
860.051 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
兩週後給我們委員會那個回覆好不好我們之前有開過研商會議我們有開過研商會議也提供了一些解決的方式 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
872.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
889.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不是不是你是之前提了延伤的方式开始实施了没如果开始实施那个方式是绝对不行的因为我们每天这个接触碰太多他们真的很可怜你特别针对我们所提的提出来好不好是好谢谢 |