| IVOD_ID |
162659 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162659 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-18T13:06:43+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-18T13:28:59+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:22:16 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5617cf280bc2552a077fb58a667851a6242af1fd96f582309be1ababaaa47466dd502cc2602e8e7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳瑩 |
| 委員發言時間 |
13:06:43 - 13:28:59 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長就「營造友善職場育兒環境，落實照顧不離職政策規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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現在主席麻煩請我們那個勞動部的紅部長陳委員好部長好 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
58.135 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
69.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
抱歉 想請教部長我們看一下第一個簡報110年台灣外勞勤領勞保生育給付的3632人111年4900人前年112年是5687人到了去年的113年應該有突破6000人了 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
89.249 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
109.817 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
呃應該我不知道部長你們那邊有沒有這個統計人數有我們其實113年113年目前的數字應該是6000人好你們也抓6000是不是對差不多好那呃這邊這個數字當中齁呃我是有注意到就是說112年比111年多了1268人 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
115.714 |
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141.391 |
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那其實這個增加是比這個111年到112年要等一下就是等一下100有他112年那一年他就是增加的特別多比之前還要多很多你們有注意到是什麼原因嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
146.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
160.988 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
因為其實移工的人數也一直在增加其實這幾年其實移工的人數增加的也很快可是他後面是減少的啊地檢我只是說那一年就特別多可能是因為疫情 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
162.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
181.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
因為疫情所以大家都跑去生小孩有關邊境管制的時候所以人數有略低那後來的人數比較高應該是回到之前比較高的水準對 但後面又下降啊112年111年到112年又我們112跟113是逐年上升現在從110年之後應該都是逐年上升的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
191.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
193.166 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
但我這邊沒有看到下降我是說110年到 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
197.274 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
223.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
160年到113年就是委員你的數據其實看起來都是上升的都有上升沒錯啦那我是說上升有一年就是多了突然多了1000多人啦那部長說因為疫情的關係也包括可能有移工的人數那跟邊境的管制沒關係我想這個只是我在看這個數據的時候發現的一個有趣的一個數字那想知道原因所以你們可能後續 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
225.163 |
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248.483 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
整理一下看是研究一下看是怎么样明确的原因我想这个是值得研究那也请你们再关心一下就其中未婚的有多少人然后已婚的又有多少这样子你们现在应该没有这个数据吧我们可能没有好可以了解一下他会告诉你很多事的数字会说话好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
249.474 |
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270.983 |
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那因為這個社福外勞不能參加勞保所以光是這個產業女性外勞14萬人呢每年新生兒人數就超過6000人了那部長我國今年5月份的年初出生率為4.25那請問這個外籍勞工的這個初出生率是多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
272.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
287.542 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
我想我們可能沒有去統計外籍勞工的這個出生率的部分你們沒有統計喔我們目前有的就是關於他的清零生育給付好沒關係我們有幫你們試算了 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
289.224 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
305.399 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這個看一下簡報的部分因為我國男女比例大概就是1比1所以標準化之後呢這個外籍勞工換算起來他們的出生率為每千人21.43那是我們台灣4.25的5倍看來部長應該沒有掌握這樣的一個數字 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
313.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
336.112 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
這個可能換算不一定能夠這樣直接換算沒有直接換算是因為這個還要這個是有公式的我們是套公式下去換算的好這個是因為這個計算公式這個出生率是年出生人數要除以這個年平均人口數碼 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
338.038 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
351.067 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
所以這個部分你們可以自己去試算一下那我們算出來是大概是這樣那如果你們覺得有什麼問題你們可以找人再算一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
352.469 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
371.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那是這樣子在部長接任之初外界有曾經質疑過部長就是說在過去力挺這個外籍勞工的態度當時部長的回答是說身為勞動部挺移工那還有就是說勞工是理所當然的 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
371.969 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
394.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那么今天的题目要营造职场友善育儿环境就应该不分彼此也要支持社福外籍劳工能够因为育儿不离职才对所以呢在下一个简报就是说部长支持社福外籍劳工在台湾也能够自由生养小孩吗 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
399.058 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
412.602 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
呃應該是說這個我想想想跟委員說外籍勞工因為其實有很多時候我們這個外籍勞工其實進來臺灣以後他其實有些真的是還在就是說20幾歲20幾歲30幾歲是那 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
416.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
440.826 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
所以他可能真的會有他會生小孩的狀況這可能是他的人權所以我們的角度不是說支持或鼓勵他生小孩而是他如果生小孩的話我們要怎麼來整個整個社會怎麼來去協助這件事情所以鼓勵他生小孩我們我們的態度並不是要去鼓勵他生小孩或這個到底不是這樣可是當 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
443.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
462.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
這個年齡的勞工他如果遇到生小孩的狀況的時候怎麼樣子我們從人道的角度從各種人權的角度我們怎麼樣來去協助不要變成是人道上面的困境我們的角度是這個部長是這樣我想我今天的質詢我並沒有就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
478.229 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
沒有什麼惡意是好那我們因為在必須要指出台灣目前我們面臨的一個狀況那就是說其實部長剛剛回的很好就是說你剛剛講說病 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
481.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
499.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
應該我這樣聽起來我應該沒有希望沒有理解錯誤部長應該沒有鼓勵他們對你沒有鼓勵我們的政策並不是鼓勵但是部長是講政策沒有鼓勵但我們後續會去檢視實際上我們政策是不是真的確實指鼓勵了 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
500.916 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
524.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
大家都去生孩子你可能不理解我等一下繼續講你就會知道所以我們基本上不鼓勵但是因為這個剛好是在健康適合生育的年齡所以會遇到這樣的狀況所以我們政府就必須來面臨這些外籍勞工在台灣生產的這個狀況生育的這個狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
527.202 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
556.466 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
好那但是我要指出的是說但是他們沒有勞保那不能請領這個生育給付那所以這個部分部長要如何去處理這個攝服外籍勞工的生育問題但是有人講到比方說是講到家庭的康護工現在比較他沒有強制性的勞保那當然我們其實也希望我們也跟部長說如果要幫他保勞這並不是他不可以有勞保 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
561.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
584.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們其實現在有相關的安置的中心在處理我聽起來聽沒有很明白你們要協助回答一下嗎有關外籍義工在台生子的部分因為他們有這樣的需求所以我們目前在桃園、彰化跟高雄設有三處義工的婦幼中心等一下那個不是我問的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
587.158 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
611.761 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
呃我只是說對因為他們不能不能申請這個生育給付因為沒有勞保嘛那產業產業的可以申請我現在只是點出這個落差啦好那所以當然這個落差之後我們接下來他們在在這個呃生育給付的請領就會有不同啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
613.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
637.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
我現在要點出是這樣啦那沒關係我們先繼續就是說那本勞的這個出生率這麼低部長要怎麼看待確實本勞的應該是說整體台灣的出生率都降低那這降低我想從勞動部角度我們當然很願意我們也在研擬相關的政策怎麼樣職場能夠對於這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
641.039 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
668.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
育嬰育兒的勞工能夠更加的友善沒錯好那我們來看一下啊外籍勞工在台灣懷孕的話可以去北中南區的婦幼關懷中心待產剛剛說的那每個月呢有15000元的安置費用生產後呢每個月18000元但是呢我們本國的勞工就沒有這樣子是不是不到底有沒有公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
671.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
681.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
根本說明其實就這個本國的勞工的部分其實我們當然也是有一些社福的資源但這個社福社政的資源可能主要會是來自衛福部 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
683.379 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
697.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
所以並不是說本國的勞工就沒有相關的資源來去但是因為畢竟那個也是我們的勞工本國的勞工也是更是我們應該要照顧的對象所以並不是本國的勞工就沒有相關的資源好沒有關係我們再繼續談就是說不知道你知道台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
702.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
715.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
還有很多的這個黑戶寶寶有六個關愛之家在照顧那因為是黑戶那他們的父母親是不是也可以享受這個勞動部營造的友善職場育兒環境來落實照顧不離職的政策規劃 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
721.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
731.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我想我們整個照顧不理的政策其實當然比較是針對現在主要的規劃但是現在是從本勞的狀況來去做做做做規劃的好 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
737.05 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
764.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
那個回答我沒有很滿意但沒關係我們再繼續往下那部長知道就是說在某些外籍勞工在台灣非法生子在他們的來源國如果是這樣的狀況是觸犯刑法的那面對這樣的問題部長是如何看待外籍勞工在台灣生小孩的問題然後又如何來保障他們的友善職場育兒環境呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
767.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
789.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
跟文說我們基本上現在相關的措施一樣還是剛剛在講的原則我們其實並不是要鼓勵外籍勞工生小孩我們是當如果真的遇到這個狀況的話我們怎麼從人道上面從人權上面可以協助我們的原則我再請教就是說外籍勞工生養小孩是不是雇主的責任應該不是啦除非這個孩子是雇主的 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
796.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
817.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
那雇主能不能要求禁止 雇主能不能要求禁止外籍勞工生養小孩應該也不行啦 那我們可以在勞動契約規範嗎也不可以 好那假設因為生養小孩無法提供勞務的時候那雇主能不能要求解雇 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
823.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
842.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
包委員這個移工在國內同樣是用性平法規定那在性平法裡面規定他必須要不能隨意支錢好那那個假設這個他們因為要生養小孩那可以要求可以要求離職是不是就是說他們可以要求離職嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
847.185 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
874.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
包圍雇主不能單方面去要求離職那如果移工他因為生育無法去履行他的勞動契約還有雇主他沒有辦法這個這個他已經有要求應該要移工要一約來履約但是後來雙方有協議這個履約在上面有困難的話那這個部分經雙方合意可以去終止聘僱關係但是勞動部這邊還是會 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
875.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
898.09 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
我的問題是我現在不是說要終止我現在只是說暫停因為中間就是說他可能要待產或育兒他可能就要求要就是需要這個離開一段時間暫停的話是可以的但是暫停跟解雇不一樣他如果一 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
899.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
921.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
她如果中間一離職因為要立刻離開台灣但是一回國可能又要觸犯法律嘛好算那這個這個要怎麼辦如果她是就法規上面來說她是不能夠因為懷孕而要求她離職或解雇的 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
924.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
932.41 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
但是如果是帶就說好我們回來如果是待產他他就沒辦法繼續工作待產或有一些特殊狀態要養育一段時間這段時間 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
935.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
957.4 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
但因為會有這個人力缺乏的問題 因為他是一對一啊 僱主跟這個社福 跟這個我們的家事外勞是一對一這不像 不像那個工廠有很多的勞工一起這個人力資源上會出現問題嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
959.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
985.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
委員這個可能是透過勞資雙方協議如果說資方願意讓這個勞方在國內待產或者是產後因為我現在點出這些問題假如你們沒有很確定也都沒有關係你就說我們可能這個狀況過去沒有遇到還是我們常遇到我們沒有好好討論那就是說因為他可能面臨就是說好他一離職他就要立刻離開台灣可是一回國又可能又觸犯法律嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
985.993 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1002.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
好所以我們就他可能也不曉得該怎麼辦那會不會就是立刻又逃逸了或者把小孩送到這個關愛之家好這樣到底合不合適有合適嗎委員其實移工在台灣生產他是可以依照我們相關的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1004.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1025.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
呃在國內他是可以呃生養他的孩子但是很多移工因為考慮到他養育的成本所以他會讓孩子返國或者希子返國那生產完畢之後再返好沒關係你現在講都是一個很理想的狀態啦但是我們我們的社會裡存在著很多的迫不得已好那所以就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1027.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1044.059 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
基於我剛點出的這些 這個我們外籍勞工生養小孩的立場所以勞動部秉持著不鼓勵不支持 不鼓勵 不鼓勵但是我們支持他必須能夠繼續生活 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1051.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1056.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
因為你們對於生養小孩的立場不然我問你你們對於生養小孩立場到底是支持還是不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1057.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1085.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
應該是說其實他有他相關的權利這不是我支持或鼓勵的問題而是他會有他相關的權利這其實涉及到他的人權的狀況所以我們會要讓他的人權跟他的權利會要留有一些空間好謝謝部長因為我們畢竟所有的政策看起來確實都有做到這些而且是非常支持因為畢竟在你們的文宣跟實際行動上其實都是支持的那我想今天 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1088.772 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1115.412 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
結論 部長今天像你們詢問勞動部對於外籍勞工生養小孩的立場其實我是要釐清一個嚴肅的問題就是如果勞動部是支持的話那麼勞動部就要有一個支持的政策那也就是要保障他們在職場的友善工作環境但是友善的環境營造的主體還是要靠雇主來落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1116.753 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1144.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
那但是呢雇主不見得是能夠支持的我這樣講你們應該很清楚啦那特別是這個社福外籍勞工的雇主因為會影響到影響這個勞務的提供所以這個部分可能就產生衝突需要你們的勞動部明確的態度跟解決還有的方法跟做法所以在未來呢社福的部分社福的這些外籍勞工 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1147.799 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1175.478 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
因應這個就是說我們接下來80歲以上的長者可以申請外籍看護那勞動部你們就是推估啦將近20萬的這個這個外籍看護進來那所以生育率10萬也是很多啦所以生育率也會跟著增加 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1178.099 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1183.12 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我趕快點出這個問題你們要正視到因此勞動部面對這個問題應該要很嚴肅來看待第一步就是要統計各個外籍勞工族群的實際生育人數並且讓勞保局公開統計這個數據 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1198.405 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1210.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
那這樣你才能夠估計未來成長的幅度提出一個正確友善的職場的這個政策規劃這一點部長你同意嗎你同意公開這些數據嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1213.182 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1239.498 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我想現在一些數據當然其實在大家外界是都有的就像剛剛這個申請起訴的數據你確定都有很容易查尋到嗎我是想跟委員說明我覺得我們怎麼樣在這過程裡面其實多不管是外籍勞工或者是雇主其實在這上面會有一些權益上面的這個要怎麼其實能夠去維護到彼此的一些權益我想我們是可以在這邊我們再多做一些研討 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1242.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1254.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
我想我在這邊要強調的就是這個就業服務法的條文到今天都沒有移工兩個字只有外國人另外在52條第三項 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].start |
1256.713 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].end |
1271.585 |
| transcript.whisperx[53].text |
還是有這個外籍勞工警戒指標的用詞那基於本席尊重法令所以剛才呢從一開始有很多的時候我使用了外勞這樣的一個名詞來討論 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].start |
1273.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].end |
1298.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[54].text |
那並沒有任何歧視的意思如果你們認為外勞有歧視的意思的話那我們就也請你們就趕快來提案修訂好不好不然我每次在台上我到底要講什麼我講移工可是我們的這個法律用詞又不是這樣那我們又立法委員我們有時候用詞又要精準那我到底要講什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].start |
1299.499 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].end |
1324.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[55].text |
講了等一下不用移工又被批評用了移工又不專業那到底是什麼東西你們趕快把這個這個名詞做一個法律上的修訂嘛這樣大家就統一比較有個依據啊好我們對我們來其實我們都看到會有人使用啊對外籍勞工或移工都會有人但也都會有人批評啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].start |
1326.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].end |
1332.972 |
| transcript.whisperx[56].text |
那那個罵就有一點就是啊到底我們就遵守法規啊就這樣好謝謝好謝謝謝謝陳以為 |