| IVOD_ID |
162653 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162653 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-23-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
23 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
交通委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-18T12:34:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-18T12:50:23+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:54 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5617cf280bc2552aa32ca3cd2fa03e45435a35cf529d0c6ca48dd392130a673642429a604935b5345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
何欣純 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:34:29 - 12:50:23 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-18T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男就「推動AI之產業發展政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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好 謝謝趙偉 我們請黃部長請部長好 賀偉好部長 剛剛在講到自然人憑證我們雖然是數位大國 但是呢阻絕詐騙最重要網路的詐騙到現在還橫行那甚至我們國人對於這個詐騙這個行為是深惡痛絕 |
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30.524 |
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所以我們才有所謂的打炸國家隊那這個國家隊裡面重中之重又是我們的數位發展部被期待最多所以第一個剛剛講的自然人憑證所謂的很多我們現在在行政單位跟我們國人習以為常的這些數位的一個工具那如何能夠讓它第一個資安防護做得更好 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.277 |
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這個部長你要思考而且要最快的速度趕快的來實質上的來告訴國人如何做到政府怎麼做部長你剛剛沒有講完如果像剛剛那樣所謂的工具被濫用怎麼辦 |
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73.203 |
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所以剛剛講說現在發生問題是因為有人就是詐騙居然去跟跟有人去借所以就是說現在就是說為了防止這東西你要確定在使用自然平衡所以是本人在使用那所以像比如說我們現在提款卡提款卡現在去銀行領錢 |
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89.048 |
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像有些ATM機器會做影像辨識辨識你用卡片這個人是本人以後自然平常使用也要有同樣的方法那可以是影像辨識你現在這樣子在這裡回答本席說是這樣子的方法那最重要的是第一個有沒有公告 |
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第二個有沒有跨部會去協商協調如何最快的速度來建立你講的這個機制而且呢是能夠落實的是能夠宣導的對 銀行開戶昨天金管會就已經在討論了昨天跟金管會討論 討論出結果了嗎就是 |
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128.171 |
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那自然人憑證又是誰發給的我相信你也應該知道啊報告委員今天早上金管會有召開各部會來開會我們蘇華部也有參與現在正在開會那我希望等一下會後可以告訴我開會的結果我想這個牽涉到非常大的問題而且關乎我們民眾的權益我今天要跟你講的就是詐騙為什麼呢我給你看一個數字 |
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156.806 |
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184.055 |
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我們在4月份的時候有宣傳說我們打造有一定的一個績效在大概半年的這個詐騙的財損降了48.8%那說我們精準打擊見效好我看到數字確實有降下來要給我們打造國家隊鼓鼓掌也要謝謝數位發展部但是我再進一步的來看從你們宣布了3月4月5月來數字又增加了 |
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185.135 |
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數字又增加了被詐騙的財損的金額呢又從了70.9億今年的3月70.9億到4月的76億5000多萬到5月的時候我們看到又變87億2000多萬那表示又在增加那部長你怎麼看 |
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205.099 |
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232.78 |
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確實有看到這樣的數據這個數據我們也在深切檢討那現在就是說確實要再更努力去打仗因為詐騙群也一直在演變我們有很多的方法他們也在變尤其是現在詐騙集團也慢慢用一些技術像AI的技術在做詐騙所以這個就是一個剛剛講是好人跟壞人的鬥爭那他們壞人一直在進步中所以我們也是要努力所以我們好人也要進步啊 |
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233.541 |
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對不對 那我們進步的速度還要比壞人進步的速度快才行啊所以我們有在努力在鋼場就技術面那如果我們有在努力我們再給你看一下 來 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.124 |
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271.751 |
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那個上個月我想也有其他委員關心過這個網路的詐騙呢其中一個來自Meta集團的臉書那廣告資訊的揭露不完全你們依這個這個防詐的一個條例喔這個有開罰100萬開罰100萬我想多數的委員都不滿意因為呢我看到法令規定是50到1000萬結果你只挑了一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
272.793 |
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299.396 |
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比最低值再高一點點的一百萬那問題是能不能有嚇阻作用或者是能不能讓這個平臺雙方有聽一個官員說依照我們的法規制度依照我們政府單位要求能夠盡速的把這些這個廣告揭露不實的這個問題能夠的有迅速處理的機制目前看起來沒有為什麼因為呢在你們 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
300.775 |
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329.043 |
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5月22號見報說開罰100萬之後6月5號你們速發部又收到了23件這個Meta網路的廣告揭露不全的一個案子那部長你自己怎麼看那個程序上就是收到案子以後我們會檢調單位一起對這案子來做一個審查審查完之後會再給Meta一個禮拜的時間做他們申訴一個禮拜對那申訴完了現在已經有在進行下一個動作請署長說明 |
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331.035 |
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351.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
那署長跟委員報告那這個23案目前看到還是在5月初的那Meta因為上次的開罰我要跟你講啦你現在看到是5月初的啦我相信到現在6月十幾號6月中旬一定還有其他案子啦是是是那Meta現在已經95%已經完成這個法尊的部分剩下5%他們現在加緊腳步剩下5%沒有法尊的部分是哪5% |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
358.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
365.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
就是在 你用什麼樣的一個角度來告訴我們Meta已經95%已經有法尊了剩下5%沒有那5%沒有是什麼5%的部分是在它的廣告的一個版位有一個網路的一個版位它那邊因為比較複雜一點還在處理 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
378.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
394.464 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
比較複雜比較還在處理那問題是這個在我們的法尊的要求裡面它本來就該處理你自己看喔這個我們社群平台沒有辦法百分之百的遵循我們台灣的法規制度的話它造成的是什麼我跟你講啦光是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
395.225 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
398.587 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
有法尊的話都還會有詐騙集團剛剛部長講的這個變形那越變的技術越來越好那我們都還不見得跟得上那如果還沒有百分之百遵循法尊那現在我們警政署告訴我們第一個就是未完成實名制或實名制不實沒有落實第二個詐騙廣告內容持續的變體 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
418.78 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
446.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
第三個廣告雖然通知下架但明顯為詐騙廣告人持續的上刊跟播這個第三點這三點都是警政署指出來的喔而且是六月份這個月才指出來的喔那數位發展部你怎麼看署長是跟委員報告目前是這個看播者的資訊沒有揭露的所以目前開罰都是真的至於實名制他目前已經符合了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
447.054 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
467.968 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
實名制有符合啊 是那我就跟你講囉你不要認為你自己認為符合囉如果有不符合或者是說我們還沒有做到位的我們要檢討喔我從去年不斷的在要求我給你看一個第一個是最近媒體有說我們的Trade到底有沒有包含在這個廣告實名制的納管平台裡面我們在討論當中目前沒有目前沒有現在正在討論當中要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
474.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
483.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
我們有兩個指標一個是他這個規模規模已經符合另外一個是他的他有廣告而且被用來當詐騙的風險這個也已經有啦這個媒體也有舉例很多啊那討論上大家也都討論很多啊甚至媒體都有一個數字叫做發生近兩千案啊我就又去問了一下媒體說那這個發生近兩千案到底是從哪裡得到這個數據警政署 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
498.755 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
518.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
所以你跟警政署一定有跨部會的聯繫平台嘛所以你看到目前為止警政署說Trade已經變成詐騙的新平台發生了將近2000件我跟你講這個數字是以4月開始登廣告到現在6月短短兩個月的時間喔兩個月不到的時間就2000件喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.316 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
526.639 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
那如果這樣子的速度還不夠我們會盡快啟動程序我們接下來就會馬上所以你到底有沒有啟動程序了啦我們其實有在有在討論的沒有你說這樣不清楚到底有沒有啟動程序如果要把它納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.021 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
562.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
要啟動什麼程序這第一個那程序的過程到底有哪些需要多久時間因為在你們的這個一定規模是網路廣告平台的計算基準總說明裡面有講到一個我們可以即時檢討更新管納管的業者名單所以即時檢討更新在我的中文解讀裡面是你現在就可以宣布可以做啦那你要討論多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
564.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
567.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為剛剛講被用來做詐騙的風險我們會再跟165這邊求證之後我們就馬上所以媒體已經講那麼多天了你們還沒有求證喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
575.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
603.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還在求證當中是 不可以這樣啦 不對那個委員我回去會跟他們再好好的檢討這個流程 我們會盡快啦這個確實是 我看到的這個媒體來源包括是電子媒體 平面媒體都在四月份甚至六月十五就是前幾天啦 上個禮拜的事情啦好不好委員 這個回去我們再跟我們素產署再加速這個過程 這個流程那早點把這個東西看要 如果要納管就早點納管 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
603.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
627.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你給我一個時間點上面的說明是即時檢討更新喔一個月內一個月你還要一個月內都已經告訴你有發生兩千案了都已經告訴你這個Trade平台是在Meta集團裡面的這個大家眾所皆知在一定的規模你也告訴我有喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
655.787 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
你給警政署求證發生多少件的這個需要一個月喔跟委員報告就是我們會在兩個禮拜完成但是因為他還是有一些一些程序要比如我們要找專家學者來認定等等的那找司法單位共同來參與所以這個可能是不是給我們兩個禮拜的時間兩個禮拜我希望更快啦因為你剛剛這樣跟我講表示你們跟警政署還沒有研商啦連求證這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.435 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
674.098 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
按個案數字你都還沒有求證啊所以呢你這個效率啊齁沒藥沒快我們是沒你的事情一樣這個我不能接受啊部長這個不是今天發生的新聞喔這個已經上個禮拜的新聞甚至四月份就有人點出來了喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
675.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
696.076 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
那個稅的納管我想我們禁訴啦那我再跟他們要求就是那就剛剛講是說目前他們是說這個有一些程序上可以大概需要兩個禮拜我想兩個禮拜之內把它完成好那最後你剛剛講的除了這個稅的納管我們呢尊重程序但是我認為要快喔詐騙裡面還有一個你們還沒做到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
697.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
722.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
雖然我們現在叫廣告實名制我們現在治安院也有所謂的這個AI機器人百萬機器人大軍在看我們說網路上這個投放廣告是不是詐騙廣告這個第一個我可以肯定但是第二個做不可以做一半啦 只要做完整啦什麼叫做一半我們看到的是以我詢問出來的你們的機制 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
724.261 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
742.564 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個AI百萬機器人去網路上來海巡 巡邏了好像有疑似這個詐騙廣告他可以來舉發 舉發了之後呢 當然了需要有認定需要認定了之後 認定了之後 他這個詐騙的內容是歸哪一個部位管你們會去通知 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
743.365 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
768.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
但是通知了之後 如果確定是詐騙的訊息你們在你們現在的這一個叫做詐騙通報查詢網上呢只有告訴我們說 不會 譬如說這一則我找到了叫做金管會已經確認這是詐騙訊息 已通知FB移除但是我要問的是 到底有沒有移除 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
768.709 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
793.456 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
到底有沒有下架什麼時間有沒有時效可以告訴我他真的已經移除真的已經下架了我找到一個例子又在旁邊這個美女這個美女呢她呢在她的粉專上她裡面就是在告訴你要投資理財被認定是詐騙廣告那也被通報了但是呢被通報了之後呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
795.745 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
815.582 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
很抱歉我現在在網路上還是可以看到他就是說我雖然通報了知道這是詐騙廣告6月12號也通知下架了但是第一個我不知道有沒有下架有沒有移除目前影片還在連結還在粉專也都還在也沒有下架啊這個請那個市長回答 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
818.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
828.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
OK 如同委員所講的事實上現在在臉書上詐騙集團的操作方法它其實分成三個階段第一個它會設立一些帳號然後這些帳號會去開粉專粉專裡面它會投放一些詐騙廣告那我們現在 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
833.191 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
861.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
目前政府跟民眾能看到的都是那個詐騙的廣告還有這些粉專我們看不到他的來源就是那個臉書的那些帳號所以我們現在正密集的跟Meta正在做協商那我們也直接找了他美國的總部的人我們在討論那要求就是說我們在通報以後他又必須把這個來源最終的來源這些帳號直接把它移除那現在那個Meta已經答應他們會進行這樣的工作 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
861.8 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
876.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
Meta有答應那他們有答應有多少多久的時間內要回覆給我們什麼時候做到是據他們的說法他們已經在執行了那這件事情當然是說因為Meta整個產品非常非常複雜 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
877.846 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
904.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
然後他會一步一步來做那這件事情我們正密切地正在督促他們要把這個事情確實落實我相信你我也希望能夠做到那我也希望在這個詐騙通報的查詢網裡面那我們是不是可以增加一個功能就是可以嫁接Meta他什麼時候真的移除什麼時候真的下架甚至連源頭通通給他下架移除我們在我們的這個詐騙通報查詢網上可不可以看得到 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
905.237 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
929.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這是增加國人對我們的信心現在我們網站通報查詢網要求Meta把詐騙廣告移除的時候我們都還必須用人工的方式去檢查有沒有確實移除那我們現在也已經正式跟美國的Meta總部提出這個要求要求他們開放程式的API讓我們能用程式的方法自動去檢查它是不是已經下架這個我們已經向他正式提出要求了 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
930.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
947.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
拜託我希望能夠達成我希望可以看到有看到讓國人真正知道政府有在做事數位發展部在專業上在技術上甚至在民心想要根除詐騙的這樣子的一個決心裡面我可以看得到起碼從這個詐騙通報查詢網裡面我可以看到動作好不好好謝謝 |