| IVOD_ID |
162330 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162330 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-09 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-16 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
16 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-09T09:26:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-09T09:40:55+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:09 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4d6a092c3b844592b280ae6385188622ba6a1b99ce3116a01e95dc6d29d716baf89052436b86d4f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
陳昭姿 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:26:46 - 09:40:55 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-09T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：審查
一、行政院函請審議「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
二、委員林月琴等21人擬具「全民健康保險資料管理條例草案」案。
【詢答及審查】
【第二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【6月9日及11日二天一次會】） |
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我先請食藥署江署長謝謝主席好請江署長 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
17.608 |
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45.511 |
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好 署長早COVID快篩的證照是你在管理的那羅一鈞副署長對這個媒體表示部分醫事藥師認為國內對於開篩效期的建立比較嚴格生產後一年半到兩年就被界定為介效日期但是像美國等國家都有展延的效期甚至到兩三年所以如果國內快篩已經過期但在半年到一年當中其可信度還是可以參考的我想請教江署長你對羅副署長這段發言的評論是支持還是不支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
46.932 |
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就請你不要講他就支持還不支持換委員那個義軍他很認真講他說官方很難請說要快篩過期講官方應該是講食藥署食藥署針對所有的醫療器材你支持他這個說法嗎就是說他覺得再過半年到一年可以嗎醫療器材的使用都有他使用期限這是第一個要跟委員做報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.04 |
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79.725 |
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第二個部分其實特別要去做說明的地方是因為缺效這件事情大概都有已經有科學定下來的你先開始講不科學的東西好了 請停一下署長 我相信連美國這個延長兩三年這個都是要經過審查確認的藥劑不是 你要寫日期在那個地方你要再繼續確認是OK的有個審查的過程才是準不是說你直接說過期了可以繼續使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
97.935 |
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113.544 |
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這個如果副署長如媒體所講的這個言論是有問題的但你身為主管機關你不用出來糾正羅署長這種不合乎醫藥安全及法規的發言嗎你可以自由發言說這個效期過了半年一年都還有效嗎你沒有出來糾正嗎你不用公開再補充說明嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
115.485 |
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124.372 |
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跟委員稍微補充一下我現在一個禮拜159萬已經補滿了所以現在都會是合格的但是缺貨基本上也還在遵守科學的道理很簡單你沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK對不對醫學的倫理是這樣沒有證明它OK之前就當作不OK而不是說你沒有證明它不OK就當作OK這個是Alpha error跟Beta error你懂的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
140.567 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.813 |
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以後還是請指要署要出來發言不是直接讓他過期然後就說好可以繼續用可以繼續用好嗎缺就承認嘛缺就承認大家先用也許之後再來補一次也是可以嘛謝謝委員好謝謝組長麻煩部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
158.629 |
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165.593 |
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部長前主密涉嫌將健保個資包括勤職人員販售給中國13年洗錢超過10億這件事情是非常的嚴重那代表不是說只有個人犯罪而且是健保資料查詢全線的控管異常的偵測治安安全制度全線失守 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
176.96 |
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193.987 |
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所以這次立法我確實應該要把這個制度要補起來但目前你送出來的法案版本第20條跟21條就是說牽涉這樣的犯罪處罰才一年以上七年以下如果涉有危害國家安全是三年以上十年以下我先請教部長你認為這樣的刑法夠嗎我想這個罰則都是有經過你一定同意的吧因為這個不然你不會送出來吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
205.114 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
217.042 |
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你覺得這樣罰則夠嗎 共點他把資料賣到中國去欸這個這個等一下我們好好來想這個罰則夠不夠我根據草案 他有根據的我要請教你有關退出權的問題退出權這個應該要很明確而且容易操作的機制目前是說書面那未來是會有規劃那個線上處理嗎線上申請退出權嗎有或沒有就可以 就是目前是書面嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
235.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
237.576 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
目前這個方向當然是在 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
239.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
248.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
在整個操作上面我們當然從這個方向來但是現在目前還是現在書面而已我再問說你這個退出權很重要嘛退出權就是讓他能夠方便嘛不是成了這個障礙這是第一個希望未來會規劃更方便的方式第二個這個範圍退出範圍的選項你夠不夠細緻譬如說民眾可不可以說我只選擇要退出住院那我門診我OK有沒有辦法做這樣的選擇 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
267.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
275.207 |
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這個我們在授權的辦法會去詳細來處理這個是目前請署長稍微進一步說明一下如果你有稍微細緻一點對不對退出的部分我可以挑嗎跟委員報告我們在第17條有一個授權法規就那個退出的資料的類別範圍都可以做那個執法的規範所以我們可以去區分那監保署會不會主動通知這是最重要主動通知民眾說你有退出權可行時他會告訴你嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
296.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
313.501 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
呃我們是這個原則上是這個法規通過之後的那個實施日期啦大家看報紙嗎看媒體嗎那當然我們會正式有一些公告那如果委員覺得需要有一定的時間讓民眾都呃理解的話立法的精神在這裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
314.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
329.13 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
可以有一個冷凍期來做為讓大家來行使權利那請署長再思考這個部分那另外對於部長對查詢行為的監控跟異常預警的機制業主命能夠三人如入無人之境他調取資料然後轉存然後帶出去那表示說健保署內部根本查不到誰查了這個資料事後也無從這個集合啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
337.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
358.069 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那你將來你要怎麼去避免呢 你一個健保資料諮議會 就是剛剛我談到的這個第一個諮議會是任務編組 諮詢編組 請問諮議會有沒有資料調查權跟他的建議權有沒有約束力有沒有 你目前的 他是個諮詢慶祝任務編組有沒有約束力 他有沒有資料調查權 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
365.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你現在的設計呢?我想我們在這申請資料進來就有審查小組,這個審查小組就比較屬於專業那有爭議的部分才到執議會去解決但是前面的審議小組就很嚴格,它有裡面的24個專家學者大家都會認真工作,但是還是要有一個相對的監督機制嘛請問執議會的運作是不是透明? |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
384.736 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
392.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
他會不會公開會議記錄議題的審查因為這些都攸關整個社會對於這項制度的一個信任度啊那製衣會將來要怎麼做你們有擬出這些辦法嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
404.978 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
好 我們他的 我們這位授權法規來他現在就是任務編組嘛 他這是諮詢性質嘛我也參加過很多這種諮詢委員會嘛到最後決定的就是健保署嘛 衛福部嘛所以這個東西為什麼剛剛我在指裡讀一遍就是基本上你這個東西都要寫清楚 法庭都要指標 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
419.432 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
424.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
因為申請的案很多啦所以不可能一直開一直開沒案足案的話那可能真的是會開不完啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
435.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
462.51 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
審查小組就會扮演他的審查的責任那質疑在這裡是比較困難比較有矛盾或者是審查的結果需要去確認為什麼我認為質疑會沒有獨立性當初法院的違憲的判決憲法法庭說主管機關對人民各自的使用應該要建立獨立監督機制但目前草案中的監保資料質疑會的設計根本就沒有獨立性更不要說監督的效能 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
462.97 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
474.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
那部長這個草案中的質疑委它是隸屬於主管機關啊是威福部跟健保署啊根本沒有獨立性啊所以我才會說它是送一個違憲的一個版本到立法院啊屬於你它有什麼獨立性啊就聽你的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
479.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
496.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
我跟你講署長我也要跟你講這個健保商包括製衣小組我們開會也不是逐字稿會後怎麼整理也是由聖保署來處理我常常覺得討論的氛圍跟最後的會議紀錄是不一樣的名單也不敢公佈因為就是專家為名單也不敢公佈 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
497.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
502.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
包括這個科技評估你很多的財務衝擊多少人數官方也不一樣官方是這樣子然後藥廠是這樣然後學會是這樣都不一樣但是還是官方說了算嘛為什麼它隸屬於你嘛我是舉例給大家聽這個沒有獨立性啦這個東西我在裡面太久了我要告訴大家我看到的是這個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
517.074 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
524.618 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那不用說你們今天送來條例整個內部都在處理目的外的利用跟管理這跟憲法判決的主義違背大法官2022年就告訴你們說這個現在的規定對於健保資料庫存處理對外傳輸以及對外這個提供利用的主體目的要件範圍等都沒有明確的規定這是你送來的草案也沒有處理這個問題嘛所以我才想到說這是一個違憲的版本嘛所以我剛剛也才提到說在個人資料保護法 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
546.989 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
556.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
以及個人資料保護委員會,這兩大法都沒有處理確定之前,你現在立這個法是根本就不該嘛,還是違憲嘛,不然為什麼要勞動大法官來釋憲呢?我們就是因為這個憲判他說不明確,所以我們這個法就讓他明確 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
565.703 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
586.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
所以來解決這個宪判的問題請你們也想想看我今天談的話我們都可以在後續提供寶貴的意見我想要講的就是說醫藥品查驗中心健康自身證跟醫療科技評估中心過去長期都在使用健保資料庫那你覺得現在是合理合法的嗎合法使用嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
587.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
606.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
這個是合法使用 第一個我們目前在健保法裡面就有醫療科技評估這個要求那第二個它所使用的都是去識別化的資料因為它主要是在流行病學上那我想請問2022年既然憲法法庭做出了這個判決之後你有做任何修正嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
608.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
617.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
您說的是哪一方面的修改我不知道你要怎麼管理啊因為你以前是健保法現在有個憲法的敘現在這個地方啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
619.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
638.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
第一個是這個管理條例就是一個方面第二個我們也提出了行政法人讓HTA由國家的科技評估中心的條例的草案我們現在也在行政院審查中 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
638.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
660.089 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
在速度當中你知道這個問題很大嘛已經進行了這麼多年嘛我今天真的是就法論法啦那根據我們辦公室部長根據我們辦公室掌握資料健保署跟部分的這個企業簽訂MOU其中涉及健保資料的研究運用合作有的還提到資料分析跟某些疾病的成效我想請問這些MOU是否已經涉及實質上的提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
660.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
675.725 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
分析或協助使用健保資料庫的內容如果是健保署這樣行為合法嗎有什麼依據部長根據我們了解健保署跟教廠簽的MOU有送到衛福部衛福部都退回了部長你覺得這個事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
677.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
686.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
跟委員報告目前沒有涉及到健保資料的使用是提供技術的資料在我們的健保署裡面在分析我們是在內部的使用並沒有對外提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
699.757 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
718.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你跟人家簽MOU啊 一再的退回MOU的內容非常的廣泛我會跟你要MOU的內容你還在持續跟不同人簽為什麼有這麼急嗎就是你有這個法座依據才開始去簽我知道你的個性 我知道你做事很認真就是說基本上很注重效率但是這樣子的做法等於說根據這次我們要審的全民健保的資料管理條例本來是為了落實憲法法庭的判決 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
725.843 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
742.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
才來回應社會對這個各自的期待但從目前這個健保署的做法來看當然產生質疑啊你先跟產業界建立合作架構然後釋出已經釋出那個健保資料沒有釋出健保資料再次跟委員然後才用專法來補救沒有沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
743.812 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
750.818 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
我想署長已經講得很清楚了,我們部裡面也會跟他主導的很清楚我要講一下Real World Data,這個資料庫我有四部,最後我要講四部這個國人的資料,它不屬於國家 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
761.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
787.124 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
不屬於衛福部不屬於健保也不是任何人可以使用的這個就是一個非常重要一個個人資料權的建立這是個旅程碑是個非常重要的旅程碑所以我今天這個談的東西也請兩位首長要好好思考然後我需要看那個MOU請送到那個看委員會或辦公室來了解我們所有MOU都展示公開展示在我們的健保的公開空間隨時歡迎那個委員來辦公室查閱 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
788.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
805.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
為什麼到辦公室 你不能送過來嗎今天沒有這個法我們現在都公開所有的人都可以看到而不是只有委員可以看得到那為什麼外服部一再退回呢外服部一直退回啊只是修正文字而已啊一直退回啊 但是你還是照跑啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
807.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
821.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
是修正文字啦衛福部還有很多部門會針對這個把它處理得更文字上更好不是退回喔 是補充意見但是該堅守的一個規定還是一定堅守的我是希望你們不要先設建畫榜就是今天你要做一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
822.598 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
844.961 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
資料的運用但是今天我們對這個資料利用的這個法有憲法判決之後我們要做的一個精神還沒有立好還沒有處理好不要先去跑我知道這個當然工作效率等等未來的使用我自己都非常支持這個資料的分析跟聊一下這個很重要這對於我們的醫療創新非常重要但是這個法還是要守嘛還是要守嘛好謝謝兩位署長謝謝主席好謝謝 |