| IVOD_ID |
162264 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162264 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-05 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-05T10:13:46+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-05T10:25:10+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:11:24 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3f41131fcd5ae5645f6033c7007d598c9f0f8eeb1de8c89ce7f061fc5ac7c7dc8561d87bf4e94c8c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
沈發惠 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:13:46 - 10:25:10 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-05T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查
（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員保障法增訂第十九條之一條文草案」案。
（三）委員徐欣瑩等27人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員林月琴等31人擬具「公務人員保障法部分條文修正草案」案。
（六）委員李昆澤等29人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「公務人員保障法第十九條條文修正草案」案。
二、繼續併案審查
（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。
【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】） |
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主席各位同仁我想這個我們今天這個非常我們也是非常高興今天我們能夠這個安排這樣子的公務人員保障法的部分條文的修正我想這個是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
28.294 |
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46.243 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
目前在公務體系的公務人員以及我們包括朝野各政黨大家的公司希望能夠盡速的完善立法來防止目前在公務體系裡面的相關職場霸凌的問題能夠有所改善那這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
47.967 |
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我看今天雖然我們要審的這個草案非常的多包括考試院、包括民眾黨、包括各黨、跨黨派的委員都有提出修正草案我想大概這些修正草案大家除了個別的幾個比較兩條比較特別以外其他大部分大家都是整個結構都是差不多 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
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最主要就是第一個要提升機關讓國家附有防止公務人員免受不法侵害 霸凌不法侵害要賦予國家跟機關這樣的義務 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
87.934 |
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108.71 |
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這個是我們今天這個修法的一個最大最主要的核心精神那這個也體現在我們這個第19條的修法修法條文裡面大概就是我們把這個國家的這個防止公務人員受霸凌不法侵害的這個義務把它提升到法律的位階這個是今天修法的第一個重點 |
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109.591 |
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另外也將這個霸凌過去在規定在這個行政規則裡面的這個霸凌的這個構成要件我們也提升到法律上面來定義這個是大概是今年第19條 |
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126.176 |
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129.678 |
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也是第19條的規定裡面接下來相關配套的這些懲處19條之一懲處罰緩還有機關責任等等這些相關強化機關的防治責任這些部分就是我們後面的這些條文 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
144.127 |
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170.567 |
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那所以我這個大概用今天的這個質詢這個就是我想這整個基本上我是肯定我們包括我們考試院的這個所提出的這個草案我基本上是肯定那裡面有幾個部分這個我個人覺得我們有可以再討論可能現在我大概先了解一下那等一下我們在這個這個法案逐條審查的時候我們也可以再進一步的來討論第一個關於第19條 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
172.604 |
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188.399 |
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剛剛講他是提升我們機關附有防護霸凌避免霸凌的這個義務把他提升到法律的位階了那剛才吳宗憲委員也有點到那我這裡我比較關心的就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
189.92 |
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這個有關於我們在這個19條第二項裡面提到的這個所謂這個霸凌的完整定義那這裡面有一個重要的概念就是持續性持續性就是漁業植物商正當合理範圍持續持續以這個歧視侮辱言行及其他方式造成這些敵意性脅迫性這個持續性的這個規定那這個持續性的規定這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
219.025 |
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我們是以持續性為原則 這個規定是以持續性為原則但是在這個後段齁我們就以這個有例外 就是不必有持續性的它就是 我們的要件就是要情節重大對不對 要情節 如果情節重大的話它即使不是持續性的行為它也必須 也在這個報應的範圍內這個我想我直接請處長 欸欸欸 我直接請這個保訓會 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
246.146 |
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272.467 |
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這邊來 是不是我們這個法條的內容是 是嘛 這個持續性那我除了這個這個持續性這個概念到底是不是持續性這就有點像刑法裡面的凌虐跟傷害一樣傷害是一次性凌虐它是持續性的那我們重點是我們現在這個例外條款我們這個例外條款排除把持續性排除的這個要件是 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
273.615 |
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283.182 |
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情節重大那這個情節重大我在這裡我就請問這情節重大他的舉證責任在哪邊在哪一方誰來舉證說這個狀況是不是情節重大跟委員報告這個有關於這個舉證就是說通常這個申訴人跟再申訴人他會去 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.648 |
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317.395 |
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先會主訴他受到什麼樣的狀態然後呢機關這個受理調查開始成立小組以後呢他就會去就那個所謂的專業商業現在我是說持續性的他可能只有一次的行為但這一次的行為如果這個霸凌的行為這一次性的霸凌 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
318.649 |
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337.459 |
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到底是不是情節重大 因為你如果不是情節重大他就不在我們這個霸凌的規範裡面喔對 所以那個情節重大 因為委員剛剛提到說情節重大 舉證責任對 舉證責任 就是只要他有申訴了那這個就會有調查小組外部機關 他就會去決定 我就說這個外部機關調查的過程裡面誰來舉證是由這個申訴人來舉證 還是還是這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
346.96 |
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370.52 |
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霸凌者來舉證這個舉證責任之所在敗訴之所在這個部分我就要了解說這個重大情節重大他的舉證責任到底在哪一方是由申訴人舉證由申訴人舉證是好這個名字就由申訴人來舉證是舉證說他這個雖然是一次他沒有持續只有一次但是我要申訴你我必須要舉證這個是情節重大對不對是不是這樣是好這是第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
371.461 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
392.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
第二接下來我們在有關職場霸凌的申訴期限申訴期限我們也區分成兩種一種是非權勢地位者一種是具權勢地位者在第三下 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
393.493 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
409.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
第三項的第一款跟第二款他做這個區分是對不對他這個一個是是他的申訴的期限不一樣你若是權勢者具權勢地位者跟非具權勢地位者這個他的申訴的期限是不一樣的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
411.056 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.481 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
權勢是如何認定這個我覺得什麼樣叫做具權勢地位什麼樣叫做不具權勢地位這地方我認為跟法律明確性原則有一點我個人是覺得有點疑慮這是有點疑慮這部分是不是怎麼樣認定他是不是具有權勢者好自己的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
437.591 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
464.436 |
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好 這部分我們等一下逐條的時候 說明清楚啦是好 請跟委員報告這個就是詮釋的跟非詮釋呢在我們的這個定義上面就是指說這個機關它本身這個人呢 他的地位然後他對於這個被霸凌人呢 他可能是主管然後他具有這個監督管理的這個角色跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
465.831 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
491.879 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個責任好那這是我們定義他具有權勢的你們在入立法說明裡面第五項是在這上面是這樣寫的但是也的確委員所說的是正確的就是說我們討論這個時候權勢跟非權勢是對這個定義認定會是值得討論這個在未來他到底有沒有違反法律明確性原則這是一個重要的地方那更 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
493.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
505.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
關於法律秘訣原則在這次修法裡面這個草案裡面我覺得有一個更更嚴重的地方這是在這第19條之一他直接有關於這個這個各機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
509.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
535.085 |
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有下列情形之一則齊應負責人員應案情節輕重義工人員懲戒罰等等這個齊應負責人員應負責人員這樣它不是一個明確的法律概念這東西不是我在這裡提而已這個我們所有的你看我看今天的書面報告包括我們立法院的法治局包括法務部今天的書面報告大家桌上有大家翻包括司法院司法院的書面報告寫得最兇 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
536.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
553.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
說得最壞,說你們這個所謂應負責人員,他就違反法律明確性原則,誰是應負責人員?你們這樣子,他是一個行政法跟懲處責任的主體,你們卻用了一個不確定的法律概念來規範應負責人員,這個會很有問題喔。 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
559.712 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
586.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
我們要知道我們的公務人員的相關法令是我們申請釋憲的比例最高的法令所有幾乎公務人員的相關規範法令是在申請釋憲裡面是比例最高的這一條法令各個相關機關都直接點出第19條之一的應負責人員他跟法律明確行政原則有所抵觸 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
589.091 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
這個部分你們雖然在立法說明裡面你們第三點有提到所謂應負責人員是氣質什麼什麼再這是你們的立法說明這個跟這個你在法律條文上面這個應負責人員因為你們接下來你們這裡寫應負責人員但是你們在 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
613.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
635.748 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
第六項你們卻就是同一條是這個第十九條之一的第六項你們卻規範的就機關首長機關首長就很明確機關首長但在前面你們就用應負責人員我覺得這個在立法體系上面第一個也有前後也有不一致的地方第二這個應負責人員的部分我認為 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
638.052 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
664.738 |
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你們應該要設法我們等一下在逐條的時候你們應該要設法把它明確化不然的話我個人除了說不只我個人啦包括立法院的法治局包括法務部包括司法院都認為說這個有違反法有這個違反法律明確性原則說得更兇一點就是它有違憲的疑慮啊這個違反這個明確性原則是有違憲的疑慮所以我希望說我們在立法不要 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
665.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
680.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
等一下大家能夠我們是不是請這個考試院這邊這個民主黨我們是不是等一下在逐條之前我們就這個條文所謂應負責人員的部分我們能夠做個考慮做一個文字上面的斟酌好不好 以上謝謝委員 |