| IVOD_ID |
162195 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162195 |
| 日期 |
2025-06-04 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
19 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-06-04T10:11:35+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-06-04T10:26:18+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:14:43 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/dfdeed74d30b9828eb0cca4aa6aed155b8fa27110b4cf3b31b0714f80b9af8b502603dcc7e4fc98c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:11:35 - 10:26:18 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-06-04T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部矯正署署長、衛生福利部、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「法官如何判死（死刑量刑準則）─包括被害影響陳述（訴訟參與人意見陳述）、教化可能性、復歸社會可能性、量刑前社會調查／鑑定，及現行司法實務如何將刑法第57條第7款至第10款、第59條納入量刑鑑定因子」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、併案審查
（一）委員賴士葆等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（二）委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（三）委員王育敏等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（四）委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（五）委員張智倫等17人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（六）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（七）委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（八）委員王育敏等23人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百七十一條條文修正草案」案。
（九）委員葉元之等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（十）委員王鴻薇等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
（十一）委員柯志恩等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。
【第二案（九）至（十一）如經院會復議，則不予審查】
【6月2日、4日及5日三天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
7.313 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].end |
8.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
行事廳廳長也上來一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
30.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
56.213 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我想幾位啊我今天聽了 早上聽了我們立法院幾位委員的這樣的一個詢答以後我是感慨很深啦 感慨很深立法院不是一個水準很高的地方但是立法院是一個多元民意的一個地方我最擔心的就是說我們今天提出來這個修法就是說叫做民意的伸張這句話聽起來真的是很可怕 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.569 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
68.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
為什麼說很可怕就是說民意常常像流水一樣不同的壓力團體不同的民團有它的一個主張那你站在司法部門 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
71.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
93.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
那你怎麼樣來採取什麼樣的一個名業我倒反而會覺得說正義要伸張啊你說虐童可不可惡可惡啊尤其是致死當然可惡啊要不要重判當然要重判啊但我最擔心的是什麼大家把那個概念給搞混掉了王一川坐在那個地方 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
94.485 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
112.24 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我每天去捏他 我也是在捏他 他產生不了什麼效果啊他搞不好覺得我很討厭而已啊我一直捏一直捏一直捏一直捏捏捏到最後他搞不好輕傷一股藥而已啊搞不好我那個手段再狠一點他變重傷他有可能虐到最後他死掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
113.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
126.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
也就是一個行為裡面常常會隨著風險的提高產生不同的結果但是主觀到底要犯意是做些什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
128.103 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
147.54 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我要語重心長的講啦講出在今天這樣的一個修法講出不同見解的人壓力是特別的大特別的大像剛吳宗憲委員他你也是法律人出身啊我對他的看法是我他也完全顛覆我的看法我就不認同但是也請你聽聽看你都一直認為說這個構成要件啊這個法官啊不要被他給綁住了我要跟召委報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
155.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
176.44 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
我們一當代法學思想在強調的就是罪行法定主義你不要以為罪行法定主義是很古老的東西你罪行法定完為什麼叫罪行法定就是我要構成要件立法者用構成要件要綁住這些法官不能讓他愛怎麼判隨著他的情緒怎麼判就怎麼判那不行啊哪怕是檢察官依法打擊犯罪起訴了以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
183.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
186.037 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
你起訴的罪名法官都可以變更起訴法條啊都可以變更啊那所以說 沒有這個過程要見 我才怕咧 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
192.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
204.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
我們今天在講說 凌虐致死可不可惡 非常可惡 民主進步黨也認為非常可惡我認為法務部一定認為很可惡啊 司法院也認為很可惡啊 凌虐把人家凌虐致死怎麼會不可惡呢那我剛看各位 你們回答之後 部長就很想去回答可是因為這個地方主戰場是立法院嘛 你們不能暢所欲言 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
214.952 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
240.632 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
那覆滅了又法官出身那你當然就不想多言啦那其實你們的判決書我都看過嘛你們寫的判決書是質地有深啊水準是非常高的啊可是到了立法院有時候礙於時間的因素你也不知道要怎麼說我就來進入主題啦你像譬如說以今天所提出來的你說凌虐虐童你說凌虐致死你說變成死刑跟無期徒刑我為什麼覺得 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
243.829 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
256.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
會顛覆現在的法學思潮就你去創設了一個我們一般講說殺人罪以現在來看的話在我們刑法體系個人侵害到個人法益是最高的犯罪嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
257.674 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
275.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你如果殺人罪你又沾泥,死刑無期徒刑沾泥,那你現在凌虐致死,那你創一個死刑跟無期徒刑,那你創設一個比殺人罪還更重的一個法律出來,這好奇怪,這個沒辦法說服我,我不曉得怎麼樣來說服我自己。 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
279.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
305.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
不能說我自己不是說我認為劣童之死是不可惡非常可惡但是體系上會錯亂所以我倒覺得刑法的正義它當然要去嚴懲但是也要符合比例原則那你用剝奪用非以奪命為目的的虐待的行為的法定型你把它設定這個極刑 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
307.032 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
330.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
負面會不會有 你會不會覺得體系混亂的問題謝謝委員我贊同那個委員的那個意見因為凌略致死 他之所以沒有構成殺人就是說他一剛開始的時候他不是一個殺人的一個翻譯是一個比較低的 就是說像那個委員講的 去捏他那所以就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
332.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
358.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以說這兩個事實上他是有罪責相當的問題就是表現在他的法定刑上他是有一個層次不一樣的所以我就知道你的意思了嘛但問題你們在這邊講不清楚在立法院我告訴你你沒辦法講清楚反而你真正想我只要在立法院碰到重大爭議的法案我幾乎常常跟人家不一樣我頭腦長得奇怪還是怎麼樣我都覺得立法的東西啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
376.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
真的是不能民粹回應民意很重要但是呢但是兩邊在拉扯的時候你如果一個國家一個司法你沒有去把它守住這個整個法律的一個體系的話你會崩潰掉你真的會崩潰掉我再來舉例就好了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
380.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
392.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
你說馬前總統執政的時候簽了兩公約嘛我也不談說兩公約要不要遵守的問題啦你那兩公約我們現在已經是內國化我們已經把它當成國內法囉那你光修這裡的話那好啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
397.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
414.838 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
那你兩公約裡面你講的裡面講的是在講說你締約國不得在批准公約時候其後任何時候將沒有死刑的罪行轉變為死刑好那你兩條你受罰電你這個地方修那除非你那個地方也修除非我們也去修不是這樣子嗎所以我是覺得非常遺憾的地方就是說 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
425.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
430.023 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
大家看到這些讓人痛恨的事情 其實大家心裡頭想法都一樣的啦虐童致死 我相信不管是中國國民黨 台灣民眾黨 或者民主進步黨大家都認為那個非常可惡 只是說這個法令怎麼樣來定你要定到說 虐童致死的 他就是一個刑法的太上條款 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
451.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
465.56 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
他定的比殺人罪還要重可是你又沒有辦法去說明說他的故意他不是基於殺人的故意他只是因為虐童到最後死掉了所以那個叫做帝王刑法的帝王條款你要去這樣創設道理講清楚了以後我也沒有意見喔但是大家要先講清楚喔虐童可惡虐待直系血清尊精屬可不可惡 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
478.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
484.218 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
虐童致死啦 死刑無期徒刑把父母親 把男略帶死了覺得沒有關係 比較輕一點這個也沒有辦法說服我這個也沒有辦法說服我死 我在這邊再強調尤其是中國國民黨跟台灣民眾的朋友還有我們所謂的民團你們的意見 你們的憤怒 立法院你都聽見了但是我們談的是在談一個法律的體系 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
506.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
526.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你說死掉啦 照我們一般在講就是說每一次犯罪大家都講說到底衝擊到什麼樣的一個法義大一的學生最喜歡提這個所有的個人的法義集合到最後才去提到什麼什麼國家法義 那不管那我的意思就是說 你像譬如說人死掉了誰讓他死掉的如果你是碰到一個14歲以下的讓他死掉的連刑法都沒有了 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
535.006 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
552.176 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
死掉了可不可憐 好可憐欸你對這些家屬怎麼去做一個彌補 是喔這個時候如果說 家裡頭又沒有錢了 那怎麼辦被害人真的是很痛苦啊那如果這是致死的行為人 剛好是14歲以下的養母熊 國無賽如果碰到的是一個80歲以上的人去殺人的 你刑法設計又必檢 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
562.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
574.004 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以產生死亡的結果它有很多原因那這個行為人這個加害者有很多不同的態樣啊產生出來不是產生叫做必死 不會啊不然我們刑法為什麼從總則邊開始去做一個設計要講罪責 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
582.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
592.617 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
然後呢再到最後用這個過程要件把整個法律人給綁住不能讓你心情想到哪裡你覺得你很痛苦啊這個很可惡就給你亂判判處即行那也不行 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
595.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
613.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
那也不行所以我倒覺得說今天啊這樣的一個修法裡面啊我絕對支持啊這個強化兒童的一個保護杜絕孽童的行為我相信各個政黨大家都一樣但是讓刑法變成社會情緒的一個出口把他整個刑法的體系把它給崩潰掉善思啦我覺得這個要善思啦尤其是大家法律人都講說這個要有比例原則啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
624.349 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
639.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我特別去查了不少的一個案例啊不少的一個案例啊我看最高法院有時候在講凌虐致死的部分這致死的部分他到最後也會去提升到用殺人罪去判你像譬如說我去當人家的保姆 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
645.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
662.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我當保姆去把人家凌虐 把他扣毒他要把他扣毒 過夜或過午而已 也不安全也許會妨礙到他身心的一個健康健全的發展這個觸犯到刑罰那如果凌虐到最後他受傷了風險慢慢在提高有人去報警了 他怕警察追啊 好啊 沒得救 把他帶走小孩子死掉了 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
675.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
678.75 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
我看最高法院也有判處殺人罪死掉 虐童行為太陽很多啊可能是基於 我就是自己哭動而已啊有的人就是哭到就有輕傷有變成死人重傷然後到最後有可能產生死亡的結果 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
693.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
714.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
他因為他是一個保姆所以他有基於保證人的地位你看到他要死可能會死你去讓他死掉你不去救他你那個風險慢慢去提升這個基於保證人的地位法官會認為說那你就產生你這個跟殺人的未必故意是一樣的判處死刑這種判決我也看到了我認為這個判決很正確啊所以未必什麼都是一定要 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.886 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
739.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
死刑 要提升到死刑也可以我認為也可以可是去創設一個比殺人罪還更高的帝王條款真的要善失但重點還是在哪裡呢我還是覺得還是在法官給他獨立審判的空間我個人都不認為死刑是最最最嚴重的處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
749.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
761.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我認為最可惡的人要是我來判的話我不判死刑我判他無期徒刑讓他生不如死我們乾脆立法院來設定一個很可惡的除了死刑以外要加一個無期徒刑每天叫出來遊街示眾讓民意來宣洩這樣好嗎但可以思考喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
776.653 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
781.759 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
所以我會覺得 各位啊 今天碰到這個議題 你們都不方便講啦但是我要再強調 虐童行為要杜絕 虐童行為要重判這一題不是政治題目 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
793.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
801.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這一題不是政治題目各個政黨不用去互相吐口水這個是非常嚴肅的一個議題啦就抱歉啦實在是我的才疏學淺啦不敢看夠啦剛才我其實我自認為啊我這個法學跟 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
810.306 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
834.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
那個複密 跟廳長 跟部長 跟你們比較我寫的應該都很生疏啦只是 這些基本的幾百年來法學的一個思潮還有法律人必須要嚴守的這些基本的原理啊還是要慎重啦 不然你說他可不可惡 我覺得很可惡啊要把他判到死刑 我贊成的 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
835.802 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
859.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
如果法官認為他已經提升到一個殺人的未必故意當然可以把他判給你也同樣要判處死刑也可以啊你這個基於殺人之故意直接判你殺人罪就好啊我來判我敢判他死刑啊但重點是重點是說要把他提升一個獨立的一個帝王條款都不去問他本身當初他的主觀的翻譯是什麼就是死刑跟無期徒刑兩個可以選擇這個可能 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
861.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
878.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
有待考慮而且跟我們整個國內法的一個會不會產生衝突我再強調一次不是要不要遵守兩公約的問題兩公約已經是國內法了那我們在修法的時候就算這個地方要過其實應該要同時是兼顧到別的法律衝突的問題以上 謝謝好 謝謝總委員那下一位我們 |