| IVOD_ID |
162111 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162111 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-22-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-29T12:44:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-29T13:06:02+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:21:37 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc104a52166c6b9510a1219069fb8f2289fc1e10d7d885c30d1a3edfb217b8fd1275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
12:44:25 - 13:06:02 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算解凍案22案。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席 麻煩有請主委有請主委 貝殖勳 謝謝黃委員好各位主委好我出自學界 先請過國歌會計畫也幫國歌會省國計畫也處理過學術倫理的案件 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
29.454 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
58.84 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
但我發現這整件事情誇張的程度已經超越我的想像了因為我處理過相關不管計畫的審查還是學倫的案子啊我講一句比較直接的我沒有看過這麼假的啦我為什麼說沒有看過這麼假的啊這件事情發生的時候啊我那時候人離開立法院那因為當職業律師啊我也比較沒有在關心法學界的事情結果竟然 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
61.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
等到我們這個注音公司派出去整個法學界我必須老實跟主委講現在是大爆炸我為什麼說大爆炸竟然在自己的學術履歷表上面造假造假這件事情我當然覺得有去追當年這個事情到底是怎麼處理的怎麼會處理成這個樣子 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
89.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
111.024 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
教育部的部分我去找教育部國科會的部分我覺得事前就要把它講清楚我相信主委我這幾天連續在追這個案子主委應該有充分準備了當初國科會在處理這個案子的時候法律專業學門七個委員一致決 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
118.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
127.558 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
說這個違反學術倫理情節重大結果最後到學倫大會被推翻掉了主委這個過程你掌握了沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
129.635 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
157.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
我了解當初在國科會的學術倫理委員會裡面討論我們都是依程序在進行當初不是我負責但是依程序進行委員討論表決是沒有到三分之二差一票嘛對不對就差一點但是當然委員也都知道說我這樣講好了啦七位 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
160.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
187.427 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
在法律學門裡面可以在這個調查小組裡面的成員其中兩個還被民進黨提當大法官這七位在法學界裡面有一定的學術分量這我相信七位一自覺被學倫大會給推翻掉我老實說我是聞所未聞我真的聞所未聞因為這整件事情太離譜了 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
188.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
215.977 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
太曲折了太離奇了這七位在法學界裡面可以說是重量級的學者做出一致的決議那其實這麼簡單的事情還要七個重量級的法學界的學者做出一致的決議其實也沒必要啦大概問一個大學生就知道了啦你自己哪所學校畢業的你不知道哪個系所畢業的你不知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
217.011 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
220.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
在履歷表上面啊可以這樣公然造假但離譜的事情是什麼離譜的事情是我們當初的科技部所表達的立場是這個學倫大會不成立沒有達到三分之二差一票我簡單問一個問題啊在學倫大會裡面有沒有基本的利益迴避原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
246.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
256.67 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
有沒有利益迴避原則是所有的審查一定要遵循的原則嗎當初的學倫大會成員有沒有違反利益迴避原則的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
258.32 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
279.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
當初就我所知一定都做過這種審查真的嗎 好來一定有 但是這個所謂的審查就是說當事人要簽切結書是 你們切結書長什麼樣子不用給我個人寫的切結書啦個人的切結書有簽名的我都尊重啦公版的切結書可以給我看嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
280.951 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
302.139 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
這一部分我到公版的切結書就是空白的嘛就是沒有簽名那一種嘛你要切結上述事項我沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則的那個空白的公版切結書可以給我嗎好 我們請好 我今天在這邊質詢公開檢舉啊裡面有人看不下去啊直接跟我投訴啊裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
305.458 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
333.841 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
有一個學倫審理委員會大會的委員是一個律師啦怎麼學倫會去找律師來當委員我也是搞不太清楚啊但沒有關係啦我尊重你們的篩選啊雖然作為一位法律系的教授中研院的研究員學倫大會這種level的東西去找律師啊來當委員我已經覺得很扯了結果你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
335.872 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
362.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
這個律師啊 學倫大會參與的這個律師他就是那個當事人擔任董事那家公司的訴訟代理人知道這件事嗎可以 可以這樣嗎我再簡單的描述一下是什麼法律關係的狀態啊這個當事人就是江雅琪啦是台電的董事結果學倫 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
365.953 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
385.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
大會裡面的委員而且當初是主導推翻法律學門決議的那個委員是拿台電的錢在幫台電當法律顧問處理訴訟的人他看到當事人這個學輪大會被指責的人是我的客戶的董事我的國科會是出了什麼事情啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
397.145 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
415.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那個應該是要作為全國學者的表率耶學術倫理的標竿耶結果學人大會去找了一個被評判的人當董事公司的訴訟代理人來這個有沒有違反利益衝突迴避原則來 請教主委 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
417.676 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
442.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
我們國會定的學術倫理在審查委員要迴避的這些原則應該當初都是非常明確啦但是我請我們那個主秘他現在監我們的那個好拉請回答這個召集人來回答一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
443.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
465.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
報告委員我們在那個學倫審議料理第17點裡面有規定要相關迴避的事項但是委員剛剛提到的那個資訊我們那時候是沒有獲得這樣一個資訊沒有獲得這樣的資訊 奇怪了那位學倫委員他當哪一家公司的訴訟代理人他自己不知道我的當事人是誰我不知道然後姜雅琪在台電當董事我也不知道可以這樣混喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
473.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
474.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
可以這樣搞喔這丟臉啦把當初科技部的臉都丟光啦我這幾天收到我多少以前法學界的朋友傳來給我的訊息啊說怎麼會扯成這個樣子啊找一個訴訟代理人來 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
496.381 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
507.391 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
領前的訴訟代理人去推翻七位法學教授所做違反學倫的認定主委這件事不需要檢討嗎如果有違反學術倫理的事情有明確的證據那我們當然也許要再檢討需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
526.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
546.17 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這個我現在是給你時間啦我本來以為你充分已經很準備已經很充足了啦那顯然還沒有掌握全部的狀況嘛那你說你要再回去調查OK我給你時間需要多久不要跟我說要三個月再一個月好了蛤 還要一個月喔兩個禮拜可以嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
547.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
572.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
一個月好了啦 因為好 一個月 反正立法院研會啊我給你一個月今年夏天我等著你這件事情我一定會追到底我雖然雖然已經沒有在法學界了但出現這種荒腔走板離譜至極的事情我一定會追究責任到底好 謝謝委員之前科技部啊知道這個事情馬蜂窩捅大了你知道發生什麼事嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
577.296 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
602.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
發生的事情是啥學倫大會沒有遵守利益關係迴避的原則推翻了法律專業學門從由召集人所自己召集的調查小組的決議結果跑出來找綠媒特意幫他洗地說他被汙止是設假的他哪有被汙止設假你床頭大會都是假的啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
605.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
626.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
不是有這種護航的事情出來大學生都有辦法判斷結果學倫大會掩飾成這個樣子護航成這個樣子還讓人家出來說哇 科技部啊 還我清白啦結果那時候的科技部部長看到知識體大 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
628.294 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
650.749 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
看到這個新聞出來了以後趕快發一個聲明啊說沒有沒有沒有這個學歷是造假的傷害學術信譽可能影響學術資源分配的公正性事後趕快發聲明稿我看了科技部後來發的那個聲明稿我看了就我不曉得是可笑還是可悲連科技部自己都知道有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
656.205 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
658.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
趕快發一個聲明啦出來洗地當初的錯誤一直延續到今天有一些是總統府該負的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
670.064 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
685.337 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
總統府副秘書長跟我說他們會回去處理給我一個回覆我到目前為止沒有接到回覆有一些是教育部該處理的我昨天已經質詢了教育部部長會回去處理那有一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
686.727 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
710.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
是國科會作為接任科技部業務的主管機關我知道不是在您任內發生的那但是這件事情一定要處理那順便講第二個層次從這個個案裡面我所看到的抽象性的問題什麼叫抽象性的問題啊主委我簡單的花一點時間給你解釋因為當初啊這一個人 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
715.393 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
739.007 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
吹哨者他要檢舉這整件事情的時候他要確認說他交給科技部的那個履歷表上面也造假因為他看到在大學端申請的資料是假的他要確認科技部的是不是也是假的所以呢他就要去找他給科技部的資料給科技部的資料科技部提供 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
740.04 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
759.382 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
所有計畫的申請人一個選項就是你可以選擇不要公開個人資料的主要學歷我其實有一點看不太懂我們科技部讓國科會計畫的申請人可以拒絕公開自己的最高學歷理由是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
761.853 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
782.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
我們第一就是尊重我們所有的學者他要不要公開包含電話號碼電話號碼 柱子要不要公開這個我覺得都要尊重啊這個沒有問題啊但是主要最高學歷是他的credential |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
783.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
812.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
是他的credential欸是那個我今天如果請教主委學歷喔你的最高學歷你會跟我說這個是你的隱私嗎不是學歷有時候那個學者公開的時候是他的畢業的到底是博士碩士還是學士還有他畢業的學校是是是有時候是這樣那我們也同意他不見得會公佈到他畢業的這個就是我的問題嘛院系所不見得啦你要來拿國家的資源 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
813.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
828.571 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
然後你要展示你的最高學歷是什麼這個到底會侵害到什麼權益我聽不懂啦不是啦我們學者公開說他不見得會寫他的畢業的系索他到學校一定會寫啦博士說是 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
830.173 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
856.915 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
你說學校一定會寫嘛一定會寫學校嘛哪個學校畢業一定要寫嘛不然這個主委你是學界出身的嗎我學界出身所以是很普遍的所以你應該很熟嘛我很熟你有審過任何的application沒有提供最高學歷是什麼的嗎審查委員一定看得到啦審查委員一定看得到讓他公開給大眾的不見其他社會大眾不用知道不一定啦 不一定要知道學生也不用知道 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
857.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
880.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
不需要啊 因為他申請的是國科會的研究計畫當然我們的委員一定都會看到他的資料至於那個學者要不要公開是他自己來決定我先講一下啦 主委你有你的立場跟看法我的立場跟看法在這邊也表白得很清楚了到底誰的立場有道理 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
881.874 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
902.131 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
全國的學術界所有的學子大家都心裡有一把尺第二個層次的問題他去跟國科會申請申請什麼申請政府資訊公開他選擇不公開嘛但是一般的社會大眾可以按照政府資訊公開法向政府機關申請要公開嘛我昨天問個人資料保護委員會籌備處的主任 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
914.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
928.452 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
說這個依照申請為什麼可以不用公開他說這個是資料保存機關意思就是當時的科技部他們所做的決定但我看到有關於 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
931.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
944.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
政府資訊公開法的規定我已經依照政府資訊公開法跟科技部或者是現在的國會申請要公開拒絕公開是依照政府資訊公開法的哪一條 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
947.984 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
965.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
主委你聽得懂我的意思嗎剛剛我上一個層次跟你講的是學術界大家評價的問題現在我跟你回到法規層面的問題法規層面的問題你們當初我後來把公文跟吹哨者要了公文來當時的部長叫吳政宗 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
971.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
999.429 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
他說我部分提供限制使用但我不提供他主要學歷的資訊那我看了半天紅框我框起來了這是科技部當初的公文人家依照政府資訊公開法申請了我們的科技部說我們不提供他主要學歷的資訊那我現在問題就來了回到政府資訊公開法不提供主要學歷的資訊他的法規依據是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
1002.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1021.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
如果這個牽涉到國會當初讓學者來填他自己的履歷我們也允許他可以決定哪些要公開哪些不公開我這樣講好了啦如果這個是可以自己決定的事啊我們政府資訊公開法直接丟到垃圾桶裡面去了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1023.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1046.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
政府資訊公開法裡面就會有一款啊說當事人不想公開就不公開啊不是 那你如果說像各自的部分政府也無權幫民眾所以我還要跟你回到法律的部分嘛因為你現在用common sense在跟我講這件事情我很難跟你討論啊所以我們就回到政府資訊公開法你是依照第幾條第幾款的規定不公開 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
1048.066 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
1073.895 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
好 那我 因為我本身不是寫法沒關係 可以可以 來 請請請來 請報告委員 就是如果照政府資訊公開法現在是第18條的第6款其實就是剛剛我們主委提到來來來 我們把第6款唸一下政府資訊屬於下列各款情況之一因限制公開或不予提供你剛剛講的第6款來 第6款法條文字我唸給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1075.686 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1089.095 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
公開或提供有侵害個人隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表者但對公益有必要不再實現我把法條弄給你看 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1090.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1113.604 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
我們在討論法律的時候基本上分兩個結構一個結構符不符合本文的規定如果符合本文的規定再看有沒有但書的例外這個很基本啦我先跟你討論主文的規定要求他公開他的學歷是會侵害到他的隱私職業上秘密或著作權人的公開發表權嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1115.934 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1137.791 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
報告委員 就剛剛我們主委提到就是我們剛剛的前提那個問題就是他為什麼可以選擇公開或不公開其實就是因為他的各種學歷會牽涉到個人的隱私隱私嘛 好 沒有關係啦你今天在國會裡面的詢答都會成為立法院公報的記錄那第二個 對公共利益沒有必要嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1142.292 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1153.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
如果資料可以這樣遮影的話那我簡單這樣講啦我以後提供給國歌會的我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫啊我愛怎麼寫就怎麼寫啊工作沒有辦法監督啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1154.827 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1178.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
因為我可以選擇不公開啊我跟國會申請國會也不會給我啊沒有人會知道工作沒有辦法監督上面寫的是不是假的嘛報告員不會這樣子啦我們現在如果說像他這樣填報可能與事實不符的話最後他自己還是要負擔這些後果嘛沒有啊他最後什麼後果都沒負擔啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1178.726 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1206.283 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
你們的學倫大會說他不用負擔任何後果啊我有說錯嗎我們有有請他更正了啦所以呢我們現在國科會跟科技部的標準是被我們抓到以後事後更正就好是這樣嗎委員剛剛講了說那個公眾力的事情那我們的看法可能會不太一樣啊如果說覺得說依照公眾力要公這個我們可以在法庭判決這個我我們國科不是啦我就簡單講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1208.524 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1234.954 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
我們目前行政機關對政府資訊公開法的運作保守到令人難以想像是從美國FOIA抄來的抄來以後運作到保守難以想像但是在欺負什麼事情欺負一般的人沒有那個勞力時間費用去跟政府打行政訴訟我簡單講就是這樣啦非常少數的人願意花那個勞力時間費用 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1237.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1265.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
去跟政府打官司 為什麼因為政府打官司 政府的律師誰出錢是納稅人出錢我去跟政府打官司 誰要出錢我自己要出錢這是為什麼我們各自有關於政府資訊公開在行政法院的訴訟案件量那麼低如果因為當事人這樣的這個作為影響到公眾利益有人要來提出訴訟國會一定會配合的啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1266.181 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1268.388 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
我這樣講好了啦齁 這個是吹哨者 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1269.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1291.272 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
到處跟你們申請的不會的公文也在那邊了我只拜託主委回去啦好好重新思考一下回去好好重新思考一下因為我們真的在意的是什麼真的在意的是台灣學術界的integrity跟reputation這我同意好 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝黃國昌委員質詢官員請回座 |