| IVOD_ID |
162096 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162096 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-29 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-15-23 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
23 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
15 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
內政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-29T10:32:38+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-29T10:42:20+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:09:42 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/99583f279a18fcc11b48e6743b333cdd7d62036aaba8f190531422321b8e3e87b7349d8067d4e87d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
牛煦庭 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:32:38 - 10:42:20 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-29T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員邱志偉等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條及第九十一條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員王定宇等16人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員王美惠等17人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之三、第九條之四及第九十一條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員林楚茵等20人擬具「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九十條條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員沈伯洋等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十條條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員張宏陸等20人擬具「香港澳門關係條例第十四條、第十四條之一及第四十七條之一條文修正草案」案。【第三案如經院會復議則不予審查。】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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謝謝主席 邱主席要不要喝口水還可以嗎 好 那就麻煩你了 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
14.837 |
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謝謝林委員主委早安 辛苦了今天從兩個角度探討一下今天有關法案審查今天進行詢問第一個本席想要就教的是有關於制度的明確性跟立法時大家的溝通責任就是說現在我們有很多民進黨的同事提出了兩岸人民關係條例港澳關係條例等等一些修正草案那請問現在陸委會這邊是不是會有院版這樣子的一個方案作為對照參考 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
44.925 |
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跟委員報告,我們為了落實17項的因應策略,我們有負責除了行政方面的措施之外,修法,包括兩條例,我們也會提願版。 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
61.511 |
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會有願版 那有時間表嗎時間表就是我們整個行政作業 目前還在作業過程當中所以現在不方便你現在是朝你的階段 研究的階段 還是報院審你們先達成共識 報行政院核定 院會核定之後才會送立法院對那現在走到哪裡了現在走到在行政院了已經寫完了 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
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在行政院所以就表示你們內容但是還在討論當中因為整個程序還沒做完我之所以會去提願板的必要性是因為我想不管是行政端或立法委員在修正任何法案的時候他其實都要有清楚大家都要擔負論述跟溝通的一個責任以現在這幾個版本來講雖然你在你的報告裡面你都講說你支持這樣的一個修法方向可是其實你在你的內容裡面你就有提到說 |
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這樣子的一個法律修正涉及對於人民言論及表意範疇的限制文字屬不確定法律概念為了注意兼顧民眾基本權益之保護使民眾可以預見相關規範內涵行政機關得以認定及執行以及司法審查時得以確認相關的規範要進一步研議是嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
131.798 |
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所以表示說如果今天照本來委員的版本照案通過其實是有一些危險性的嘛因為他其實講得並不清楚對不對對 就是那個法律過程的要件我們還是要再明確一點簡單來說就是法律明確性原則嘛這不管是之前的國安法的審查或是今天兩岸關係兩岸人民關係條例的一個審查 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
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那條紅線要放在哪裡它其實應該是越清楚越好嘛你才會讓大家知道那條紅線明確嘛而不會造成說法律有可能變成有濫用的一個狀況那既然你院版其實已經起草了差不多了只是還沒有定案對不對那為什麼你不在報告裡面清楚的去續明就是說怎麼樣去寫這個規範是比較清楚的呢你只有跟他講說他的不清楚但你卻沒有講怎麼樣比較清楚你是不是要在這邊做一下補充的說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
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是 委員我們設計的這個未來的我們這院版它是以落實實際相的相關的這些因應策略為主那我們設計的方向可能跟今天的提案委員的組織未必完全一致但是我們今天提案委員他很多都是民主防衛機制我不順著這個話往下問你說你說未必跟現在委員提案的版本一致 |
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是強度上的不一致還是方向上的不一致就是規範的那些內容或是規範的一些所以連方向上可能都有不一致嘛立法的態度就是當然要很嚴謹那今天委員這邊提的案子剛剛委員有很多他們想提案子沒有被提出來還在這個程序委員會我問你嘛 程序委會但是我們的案子是 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
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以落實賴總統所提出實施這樣的因應策略為主的那些規管措施我今天要提這一段就是因為在立法的時候其實從答詢開始它就是一個溝通的開始如果你今天報告只是講它的東西不明確但你沒有明確的講出那應該是什麼 |
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那其實某一些層面會變成原地踏步跟委員報告既然有願版願版出來我們也會去跟委員來報告我們的一些理念的設計跟提案的一些我想這部分尤其是法律明確性是本席比較要求的因為你看像之前有修正幾次包含國安法等等其實都出現大量起訴但最後被判的比例並沒有那麼高嘛對不對但是任何一個人他一旦被起訴被偵查被偵辦 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
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他可能在社會上被貼標籤受到一定的衝擊形象的打擊等等到最後可能是沒事那你是不是其實某一些層面來講就要傷及無辜所以你在法律立法的設計的技術上跟品質上本來就要從前端要嚴格把關我希望這樣的法案修正當然大家都希望國家安全為重但是問題就是說討論的過程你不能不理性嘛你不能不嚴謹好不好這是我要提醒的謝謝 謝謝委員第二個就是順著往下講叫做社會現在的氛圍對於理性討論這件事情的影響這 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
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主委喔 所以你一下都是兩岸關係的主管機關本來應該是要希望大家可以合理的來交流對談等等但是現在好像大家在問你的時候都在問要怎麼防備啊 怎麼三管五卡啊那當然就是因為氛圍不好嘛現在氛圍要萬事皆統戰 輕鳥說了算欸這主委你最近有沒有看新聞有一個人在路上應該是直播還是在拍影片就有一個人跑進來說什麼六四天安門 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
330.765 |
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然後那個拍攝師會講幹嘛我是台灣人就鬧了一個烏龍為什麼發生這個事主委你知道嗎因為網路上現在很多青鳥在講說現在我們已經被滲透了很多人都用直播什麼在偷拍我們的設施所以大家要挺身而出去阻擋這些人然後變得現在任何人包含前面之前也有個是拍他喜歡拍馬路路口 |
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他就喜歡拍他說那是無意義的照片但他喜歡蒐集這樣的照片結果就被人家就被人家盤問被人家阻止就出現很多這樣的事情金明聯要去借北港朝天北港媽祖廟前面的這個北港政工所申請入權但因為要辦廟會北港的廟要辦廟會所以政工所表示說可不可以喬別的時間結果網路上親鳥就講北港媽祖被中共統戰現在到處都是這樣的一個聲音主委你有沒有觀察到這樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
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謝謝委員 當然這個我們的國人開始重視國安開始對於中共對台的滲透統戰開始關注包括像有許多招攬我們的年輕朋友復路去交流參加比賽人人有獎像這些統戰的活動國人過去可能都沒有那麼多的關心那現在打電話到路我會都蠻多的 |
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主委我要講這些故事的原因就是說社會現在焦慮而且這個焦慮我認為已經超出了理性的範疇嘛是因為你現在在路上拍個入口都被人家盤問對不對這是很奇怪的事嘛你在亂開個直播被人家跑進來亂入對不對這是不太好做但是他只有澄清的話就得到一些理解對我現在講的意思就是說即便有這樣的氛圍大家在討論立法的時候還是要有理性不能被這樣的東西牽著走 |
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437.623 |
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我非常贊成應該要在理性的環境下來推動我們是在野黨你們是執政黨至少我們在應該要理性的討論然後要講道理這件事情我們要達成實質的共識我們強化社會溝通爭取共識這個是我們職責所在也謝謝委員我之所以講說我們一定要秉持理性討論的原因就是因為如果我們連執政當局如果連這條線都要配合焦慮情緒然後亂花一通的話會出事 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
464.898 |
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比如說有幾個版本講說有任何這個矮化國家的意圖對不對矮化國家的這樣相關的言論或配合大陸地區有統戰目的的政治宣傳行為等等他現在未來就要列入你的防守範圍就要開罰對不對剛剛很多人都問那賴清德總統的併購論那都算不算某一種層面的矮化呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
487.457 |
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統戰如果是由大家說的算對不對和平談判促成統一它一定也是統戰的一環法委員那個我不要過度的去解讀啦我們說兩岸的互動應該要對等尊嚴相互尊重啦我今天不是要跟你吵架我就是要提醒你這個事就是說因為 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
503.695 |
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統戰這也是很模糊的概念很模糊的概念的時候大家就講說你只要坐下來談很多人也講是統戰你去參加交流去參加比賽他也講你統戰你去觀光他也講你是統戰你在路口拍照他都講你是統戰在這樣的一個情況之下如果我們的法律去寫說任何有相關的行為都都要受罰那是不是會變成 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
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變了一個很奇怪的狀況我們也跟委員一樣看法對言論跟表意的範疇要比較審慎如果言論跟表意都要在這次的立法被管制的話那賴清德總統的併購論絕對會第一個被拿出來被挑戰因為併購你當然是講我們要有條件要有前提可是講說大公司併小公司第一我們被併第二如果要提條件表示要談判那豈不是說要透過談判的方式解決兩岸問題嗎這是賴總統的官方立場是陸委會的官方立場嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
553.341 |
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576.76 |
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真的委員對這個議題就不要過度解讀我們只是說兩岸在互動的時候還是要秉持著你要正視我的存在我們要對等尊嚴相互尊重我都願意多聽主委講幾句我也希望大家在立法過程中不要被太過焦慮的社會氛圍你反而執政黨有的時候也要稍微平衡一下這樣的社會氛圍而不是放任這樣的東西到最後用情緒我們會理性溝通爭取共識爭取共識好不好多花點時間嚴肅討論可以嗎是謝謝你委員 |