| IVOD_ID |
162009 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/162009 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-28T11:33:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-28T11:52:28+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:19:13 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24b55e33a555679c77e795f59f7b69f6ae87f2bf784d93fc30857439106b1a09b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:33:15 - 11:52:28 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案64案(含報告事項51案及討論事項13案)。
二、審查
（一）行政院函請審議「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（二）委員林月琴等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（三）委員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（四）委員王育敏等24人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（五）委員邱若華等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（六）委員黃捷等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（七）委員蔡易餘等17人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（八）委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（九）委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十）委員郭昱晴等21人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十一）委員陳素月等16人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十二）委員鄭天財SraKacaw等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十三）委員王美惠等19人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十四）委員林淑芬等25人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十五）委員王正旭等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
（十六）委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「兒童托育服務法草案」案。
三、
（一）繼續審查委員王育敏等18人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。
（二）繼續審查委員劉建國等16人擬具「病人自主權利法部分條文修正草案」案。
（三）繼續審查委員邱志偉等19人擬具「病人自主權利法第八條、第九條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。
（四）審查委員李柏毅等16人擬具「病人自主權利法第九條條文修正草案」案。
（五）審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「病人自主權利法增訂第十六條之一條文草案」案。
【第一案及第二案，綜合詢答】
【二、第（一）、（六）及（七）案，如經復議則不予審查；第（八）至（十六）案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】
【三、（四）及（五）案，如經復議，則不予審查】
【5月28日及29日二天一次會】） |
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好 謝謝主席喔是不是請邱部長來 請部長委員好 |
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26.674 |
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53.721 |
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部長辛苦了 剛從這個WHA的會議那邊回來但是呢因為今天專委拍了兒童托育服務法所以我們還是要討論一下因為凱凱案的流行的保姆啊大家都覺得非常的惡質那社會高度矚目的就是說像這樣的保姆怎麼可能怎麼可能沒有被發現 沒有被淘汰還能繼續帶小孩 |
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55.785 |
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73.5 |
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那我們來檢視行政院版的兒童托育服務法我們這樣如果說我現在問你不要講凱凱愛那麼誇張啦如果說把托兒留在家裡然後留給家人照顧然後自己跑去逛街你覺得恰當嗎放在家裡沒有大人照顧不是啦他保母把托兒放在家裡留給家人照顧啦 |
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83.126 |
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103.331 |
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非保姆本身 然後保姆本身跑去逛街你覺得適當嗎有保姆的家人保姆自己跑出去逛街當然不行當然什麼當然不行收拖的拖而人數超過法定上限嚴重超收這樣子適合嗎不適合那我剛剛講了再講一個例子也是這個 |
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105.632 |
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123.046 |
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讓托兒趴睡 床上充滿了枕頭玩偶 訪員提醒說這樣可能會讓托兒窒息保姆回答說 我不改 你能拿我怎麼樣你覺得可以嗎 不可以用馬克杯裝熱水 然後沒有放置妥當翻倒後導致托兒受燙傷 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
125.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
137.519 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
這樣子喔 所以我不要講凱凱很嚴重的 我就講從這裡這樣的行為 請問你現在的行政院的版本是有什麼樣的棒子可以處理好 周市長要不要那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
146.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
160.794 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
不知道 照你們行政院版本你們是怎麼處理我們現在行政院版本的第八條裡面對於托育服務要提供的相關的保育內容裡面 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
161.554 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
190.211 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那在第八條的第二項我們有關在托育服務內容的衛生安全營養生活照顧學習一些的相關的原則方式以及相關的事項那因為這個部分因為涉及到整個生活照顧很多的細節的部分所以是用授權的方式未來會有這個法規命令的部分有細項的來來律定好啦我簡單用白話我們跟部長講一下啦這些違規啊目前都限期改善就沒事了限期改善啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
190.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
207.134 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
所以把我被抓到一次 演一下 乖一點改善期一過 不會有任何裁罰不會裁罰 也沒有任何紀錄下次再抓到違規 再限期改善 再乖一點然後沒有裁罰 沒有任何的紀錄 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
208.155 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
230.649 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那你們現行這是現行的管理辦法然後我們期待的兒童托育服務法要用更高的規格來檢驗不適任的托育人員要讓孩子在托育的過程裡面的風險降到零幾乎是零這是眾所期待可是你們行政院的願板 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
232.11 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
254.167 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
你們的制度對現行的這些保姆的衛生安全的違規在你們草案裡面的第70條一樣叫做限期改善一樣讓違規的保姆乖一點點以後可以準規水沒渾然後他肆無忌憚還可以繼續違規繼續違規再乖一點限期改善 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
259.781 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
270.154 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
你覺得這樣子恰當嗎 你們的版本報告委員 剛剛您提的這幾點我們都覺得不榮喜你們新的版本就這樣子提那如果這個有這樣我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
271.331 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
296.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
可以來 那就聽我們的 我們民間的版本來了本席代表民間所提的版本來了我們第81條第一項 針對衛生安全相關的違規已經改成直接採法之後再限期改善而因為這些攸關安全的議題不能夠不落實所以採到安全的那個違規要罰 要罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
299.264 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
314.188 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
那我們82條納入了祭典制不是每次罰了一下不痛不癢然後繼續違規 不是我們參考交通違規的制度違規的拖遠遠的依照嚴重程度祭典1到3點兩年內累積到6點暫停新拖 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
320.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.162 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
然後呢 要公告姓名如果五年內被祭典暫停吸陰退休兩次以後又再度違規被祭典 費正 費正 退場 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
333.706 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
351.068 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以只有建立祭典制然後讓每一次的違規變成很重要裁罰 處罰 還祭典然後未來要廢照 這樣才有效蘿蔔跟棒子 棒子要有效的棒子 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
352.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
379.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
所以在這裡我們要給社會一個真正的交代你要讓這種不適任的這種地雷要出去好的留下來不要再讓不斷違規的人不適任的人留在這個場內把家長讓家長把孩子交到有風險的人手上那我現在再問你部長你同意好的托育的品質必須是基於好的勞動條件也應該要提升托育人員的勞動條件嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
382.933 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
391.062 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
當然希望當然是希望 可是你現在確定這些托育人員同工同酬嗎你們現在有制定薪資標準的最低薪資標準的都是機構式的那居家托育人員是誰訂的你知道嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
409.242 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
424.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
地方政府因地制宜的模式讓同工不同酬讓不同縣市之間的人員薪資差異很大而且地方政府扛不起壓力地方政府在審議的過程在決定訂薪資的條件的時候 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
428.055 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
446.69 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
受到很大的人情壓力然後相關團體的壓力導致整體來說居家托育的薪資條幅以及其他所受到的保障明顯不足不足跟機構式的托育人員沒比的沒比的我們現在要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
447.811 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
470.662 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
只有好的勞動條件的保障才有好的托育的品質如果一個托育為什麼對機構要做基本工資的限制因為流動性高啊那如果有保姆他當然沒有雇主可是他自己就是他的收費就收這麼低你覺得他收那麼低可以不超收嗎他收那麼低會大家都 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
472.109 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
479.855 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
過很久還認老不認怨嗎自己的六八六五其實就過得很累收了那麼低以他的勞動來講報酬不相當不對等容易情緒失控嘛有沒有可能所以我們在這種狀況裡面我們的版本你們都沒有討論到這一環我們的版本就是要求這個收費標準要由中央中央來扛起這個責任啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
501.738 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
528.528 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
你覺得呢?部長目前對於這個所有不管是機構或者是保姆的部分他的收費那收費的項目的原則那我們中央會來定一個相關的地方都是由各地方政府制定這個問題很大地方政府來定定 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
528.948 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
543.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
我們現在不希望地方政府繼續定定 中央要扛起責任 這剛好什麼困難啊我想這個都可以來討論好 那我再問你喔 我們現在0到2歲的托育的服務啊機構是居家室 比例各占多少多少孩子的機構是多少孩子的居家保姆照顧 比例各占多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
553.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
555.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
大約一半一半那我要問你當我們在講說這兩種模式各佔一半的時候家長都必須工作跟生小孩就必須要二折一了 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
570.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
595.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
那如果兩個都做的人已經夠辛苦了 他找保姆或是找機構找到保姆的人 我要講我們政府在服務擴充的這個政策上的規劃和資源的挹注上面政府的資源分配在機構市跟居家市的預算分配上差多少你知道嗎 差多少 你自己報告預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
599.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
624.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
你現在對托育所有的政府的資源經費都依據在機構室啦我行政院你以行政院我國少子女化的對策計畫107到114年為例在提高0到2歲托育服務量的章節裡面所提到的4種政策目標都只鎖定機構室的托育不見社區公共托育家園 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
625.146 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
646.227 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
因地制宜的設置公社民營托嬰中心協助推動政府機關構提供職員 員工 子女托育服務提供公共化的托育相關人員薪資通篇都沒有看到政府對於擴充居家服務量能有任何短中長期的規劃更不要講逐漸浮現了 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
649.77 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
675.005 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
居家托育的這些人力老化保姆越來越老而即將要迎來人力斷層的危機的問題你們有提出任何具體可行的積極的因應的對策和解方嗎你們有重視居家托育的重要性嗎你們有分配任何資源給居家托育的這些這個保姆等等嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
677.338 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
683.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
一半一半以去年為例700個孩子的機構700個孩子的保姆機構式的資源全部都給他居家托育的零這樣合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
696.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
719.683 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
跟委員報告家長把小朋友不管是拖到托嬰中心或者是居家保母基本上他能夠得到的托育補助是一致的另外對於居家保母的補助目前每年居家保母每年一樣有相關的補助對於托育的保母保母的部分也單獨有相關的補助 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
720.99 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
740.796 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
你能告訴我資源怎麼分配啊資源分配我現在在講說你們對於提升這一種服務量能你們是怎麼樣的分配當然準公共化公共化當然都有資源分配啊我們也知道保母也有零啊但我不是在講這一個為了少子女化然後幫家長減輕負擔的補助不要講 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
748.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
763.511 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
我是在講對於機構市和居家市的托育你們在政策輔導上你們的資源分配給了什麼而面對居家托育的勞動人力的逐漸高齡化 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
766.633 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
787.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
再接下來就人力短缺 然後你們有任何因應的對策嗎你們投資了多少的政策資源 要去增加居家室托育的品質讓勞動力不要這麼高齡化 鼓勵年輕人也進入這個市場 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
789.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
810.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
你們做了什麼 我說不知道 保守 你的保守在幫助父母減輕他們托育的經濟負擔我現在是你對於這種服務托育式的服務和機構式的服務 你的錢全部都到機構式服務去而對於家庭托育 居家托育式的 沒有 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
811.221 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
820.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
市委員可不可以請理事幫很簡單回答一下我認為你說的完全是重點現在兩個部門現在一個需求端一個供給端你現在說的需求端 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
824.268 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
833.513 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個是一粒品種 但是我相信 你剛剛說的那個整個供給端 這邊跟長照一樣 有分機構 也有社區對 我在講供給端的問題 供給端的部分 我如果有人報告我們現在目前就是說 那個居家托育人員 如果說他有那個整個品質改善的話一年一萬八 但是我過去在台中 台中市政府 社會社會肯定 我覺得這永遠不夠啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
849.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
854.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
所以我這個部分你現在把你整體的經費除以從業人員去看他一萬八機構是平均分配的社會資源是啦國家部門資源數十倍啦不對 委員我感覺這個本來就應該要越離媽媽離那個居家越近越好所以這也是我們的少子女化政策的一個對阿 可盡性阿你現在為什麼委員所說的現在平均的保母平均年齡正在提高啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
877.825 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
886.947 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
這個保温我們就要...保温都阿嬤化了委員我要報告這個保温我要責成同仁所以你知道講到重點但你現在要回去好好的想應該的政府的資源和政策應該怎麼樣導入去協助他們吧這個保温我一定回來要求這個保温要做一些改善這個問題對孩子問題比較好這樣我再來問你啦次長你告訴我保證都不知道啦來我現在講居托中居托服務中心 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
907.25 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
919.52 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
居多服務中心應該是要做什麼的報告委員 居多服務中心一般來我們現在目前是這樣主要就是來像那個居家人那個保姆對不對他們會去那邊看 去那邊扶著在你們新訂的法規你們的草案裡面有對這樣的業務法制化嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
928.887 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
951.704 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我現在說一個故事給你聽不管機關為了迎合議員增加政績然後要求增加非計劃內的要求比如說開放居托中心內夜間臨托服務要求中心配合並更改上班時間然後到晚上10點訪員被迫改夜間上班居托中心變成臨時的24小時的托嬰中心你覺得適當嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
953.425 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
958.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
現在是變成地方政府的小幫手你們是招資集來揮資集去看要做什麼他就是變成是這樣的補充人力嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
962.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
967.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
報告委員這個我覺得應該要檢討週末的時候被要求辦理許多額外的活動和宣導業務你覺得是居托中心居托服務中心的應該要做的事情嗎這要檢討托育補助業務補件家長預領了款項叫居托中心的人要協助到家長家去收取預領的款項回來地方政府可以去做這個這叫居托服務中心的功能報告委員這個我想讓我們了解一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
991.624 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
998.252 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
很多地方政府都這樣你人生你都應該要掌握啊我再說一次要求居托服務中心要提供借月教具玩具服務跟其他的人家一些親子館托資中心圖書館都在做的都重疊然後叫居托服務中心也去做這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1010.086 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1025.814 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
適當嗎然後配合支援其他活動其他的廉價非托育業務有關的活動都叫他們去參加要動員適當嗎然後語言推廣要求協助推廣什麼什麼語言但沒有任何支援醫藥中心推廣這個合理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1027.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1048.881 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
所以我們今天在講的是說沒有明定居托中心的業務執掌仍然停留在一般的原則性規範所以居托中心居托服務中心這個角色這個定位這個功能他要設定成什麼難道不應該要好好的明定出來嗎該不是臨時人力資源所 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1052.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1068.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
當然不是啦 他正經來就要做什麼?正經來就要做什麼?包委員 他應該最主要就是要輔導我們這裡的服務人員去做提供比較好的服務包括 我如果委員報告 包括就是說有時候他要去選 去看本來就是核心的 核心業務耶對 因為委員報告 因為這樣 所以我們卓院長他也很貼貼 因為現在那個薪資在去年從3萬 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1078.384 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1084.159 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
我現在就是要跟你講來 次長因為到時候修法會再談就是說法律裡面你們的草案都沒有想到 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1085.14 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1098.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
你們要直接明定化法制化他的業務權責範圍釐清中心他的角色案定位然後讓他正常正規的核心業務訪視人員發揮他的專業確實的去做好訪視工作掌握好托育的品質充分的評估照顧保姆照顧的風險每一個保姆都被看到被訪視被評估了 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1111.178 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1120.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
才能夠落實真正的居托中心輔導管理居托品質服務的這個制度的初衷現在都在打雜 又臨拖 又叫人去做什麼 去動玩辦那個什麼 辦獎典禮 辦什麼活動都不像話 地方政府都越來越不像話所以我們的草案都有 請你們到時候支持 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1137.02 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1146.885 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
感謝委員好 我完全同意啦 保證也常常要支持要蓋下去啊 你的行政院版本都沒收到 都沒在制度的設計 都要把它放下去好謝謝 感謝委員謝謝 |