| IVOD_ID |
161956 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161956 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-28 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-20-14 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
14 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
20 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
財政委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-28T09:40:48+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-28T09:54:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:13:12 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75aba70f567c6f24600a4e07181a204eafe3e41e2f2b0d30d7c4f69b4c130d77e77a3212224c70e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳秉叡 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:40:48 - 09:54:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-28T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「國際金融業務條例」8案：
(一) 本院委員沈發惠等18人、委員鍾佳濱等17人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第十三條、第二十二條之七及第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等2案。
(二) 行政院函請審議、本院委員李坤城等20人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員郭國文等19人、委員羅廷瑋等17人、委員陳玉珍等16人分別擬具「國際金融業務條例第二十二條之十六條文修正草案」等6案。【本院委員陳玉珍等16人提案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】
二、審查「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法」9案：
(一) 行政院函請審議、本院委員鍾佳濱等20人、委員李坤城等19人、委員沈發惠等18人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法部分條文修正草案」等4案。
(二) 本院委員林楚茵等17人、委員王鴻薇等19人、委員郭國文等18人、委員賴士葆等32人分別擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員賴士葆等32人提案如經院會復議，本次會議不予審查】
(三) 本院委員林思銘等18人擬具「證券投資人及期貨交易人保護法第十條之一及第二十條條文修正草案」案。【本案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】
【5月28日及29日二天一次會】） |
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主席麻煩請金管會彭主委好 請彭主委委員早主委早投資人保護中心現在的編制是什麼樣子還有多少人這個詳細的數字我可以請董事長跟委員簡單說明 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
26.891 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
48.486 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
我們的編制是58人但實際是50人你們現在聘了幾位住在你們裡面的律師18位50位有18位是律師這18位律師的薪資是什麼狀況我們按照他的年資不同平均我們之前統計過大概是8萬多 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
57.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
83.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
這個投資人保護中心如果遇到比較大的訴訟是自己的這18位律師去打官司呢還是要外聘律師剛剛董事長提到既然有自己的律師就由自己來處理那律師這個行業因為我是有一些了解八萬多平均的薪資是低的那 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
84.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
107.262 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
如果是一般的律師他是專門職業技術的license基本上他也是有一點商業行為的色彩我是說一般在外面的律師那如果他在外面職業狀況良好的他的收入遠不只平均八萬多 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
137.588 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
也就是說用平均八萬多養十八個律師在投資人保護中心裡面專門等待訴訟這樣的想法跟幾位比較能夠了解說這個案件判斷該不該提起訴訟然後如果要提訴訟外聘律師比較優秀訴訟方面表現成效良好的律師來打官司你覺得這個效果會不會不一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.71 |
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花費也可能會有點不一樣 搞不好也會比較省來 請說是 謝謝委員的詮詢就是基本上我們上次有考慮過說是不是要有外聘或雙軌的一個方式就是我們有自己的律師跟外聘的律師當然投保中心有一些訴訟上策略上的考量必須跟有一致性 就在不同的個案當中那再加上外部的市場其實他們也可以考慮跟投保中心有力衝的一些案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
165.444 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
182.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
我們現在目前大概有一百多個案子在運作所以其實外部市場是不是有這樣子的一個可能性也還要再研議那你們過去三年的訴訟成果我看到的統計資料都是勝訴的部分是那有多少敗訴的 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
184.22 |
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193.449 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
委員要看不同的類型是看財報還是看因為我現在看到的資料你們過去三年求償的金額新台幣799億然後判決得到賠償的金額是324億然後和解的金額是63億這樣勝訴的比例 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.439 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
225.836 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
如果你起訴的求償金額扣掉和解金額大概是730那你才獲勝訴324代表你獲勝的金額不到一半我是說如果從我粗略的統計數字這樣來看所以你的勝訴的案件當然有敗訴的案件也不少 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
226.994 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
250.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
那敗訴之後有沒有去檢討什麼原因敗訴或是當初根本就不應該起訴這一方面是由誰來控管由誰來判斷好 跟委員報告委員剛才這些數字是歷年從投保中心設立到現在的數字所以大概有一半左右的就一半左右的敗訴的可能性那我們現在的 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
250.874 |
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277.125 |
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基本上所有的案子收案都是百分之九十可能八都是從檢察官起訴的案件移轉給我們的所以我們會從檢察官起訴案件中評估評估如果有訴訟的這個十億的話我們就會送董事會如果董事會通過我們才會提起訴訟對那結果在經過檢察官起訴你們在審查認為說這個應該要去告結果告了之後法院對你支持的比例不到一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.5 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
299.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
那這個中間坦白講是有什麼問題啊今天檢察官起訴的案件就是檢察官認為有犯罪嫌疑嘛好那他基本上檢察官就過濾了一遍你在這個檢察官起訴的案件裡面你們董事會再去選擇哪一些該告這你們再經過一次的篩選 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
300.984 |
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327.072 |
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就這樣的篩選告了之後還是你們會裡面18位律師專門的律師你們在投保中心裡面專門的律師去進行訴訟結果勝訴的比例不到一半這個喔民事訴訟喔坦白講如果丙除掉大訴啦民事訴訟的勝率應該是一半一半 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
328.615 |
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349.06 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
委員我可以跟您報告一下嗎就是我們在其實現在很多訴訟特別是財報不實都金額非常大但是在損害培養的計算上目前法院沒有穩定的見解所以我們一開始在計算的時候會採取對投資人比較保護的一個損害培養計算法叫毛損益法早期的案件都是這樣現在法院的見解比較穩定以後會採一個比較稍微 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
350.34 |
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372.259 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
貼近實際的一個狀況的競選法所以早期的案件金額都會非常的大我是很敬佩你們要保護這個投資人的這樣子的想法跟做法但是我遇到的個案的陳情也有很多在訴訟就以我以前曾經擔任過的職務來看有一些訴訟是不合理的就在我來看這個爛訴啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
375.339 |
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400.187 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
所以我現在是在講說你們這個機制如何設置你要去保護投資你的名稱叫做投保中心這我很贊成這個工作我也很贊成那問題是你怎麼去踐行這個機制那你一方面要保護你名義上的投資不太人另外一個角度反面來講也有可能會進駐不該告的人去告的話被告的人也非常痛苦的何況你們是 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
401.047 |
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414.789 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
你們有的是資本你們可以對人家假扣押假處分假扣押假處分假執行你們有的是資本那你用強勢的訴訟方法那被你告的人有一些是很該告的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
415.831 |
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444.246 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
阿如果不該被告的然後你又去查封他的你又用這個保全處分去查封他的他連生活都出問題阿我就曾經遇到過這樣的陳情案件阿所以我今天就想說主委投保中心這個政策我認為很好但是他的設置跟他要達到的目標跟他現在進行之後你去給他檢驗中間是不是有可以再改進的地方是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
445.311 |
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當然所有的制度在運行一陣子他們都會持續的做剛剛委員剛剛提到包括如何選案如何決定訴訟是不是有更精細的篩檢標準還有就是是不是能夠找更專業的人來協助是不是能夠提升勝率而且不要就是等於說過多的就剛委員提到假設是不應該提起訴訟的部分是不是應該有個比較嚴謹的檢核訴訟第一個降低成本也能夠更精準的去保護投資人我想 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
475.833 |
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這個從那董事長領導的投保中心過去一直也跟我們保持密切的合作相關需要改善的地方我們會請我們的相關業務局跟他們去做進一步的研商我覺得我要提供一個我認為比較關鍵的問題就是你要決定起不起訴這大概要有比較 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
500.468 |
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525.558 |
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專業可以判斷訴訟走向的人來做我不知道你們董經事的聘請是怎麼樣不是說大家覺得這個有損那該告就告我是覺得你認不認同我認為你要選擇訴訟該告的案件當然要告但是有一些告的選擇也不是爛訴檢察官送來的我全部都告 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
526.758 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
554.26 |
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這個也不見得是正確啦所以誰在決定告不告我認為是關鍵的問題好 跟委員補充報告一下基本上我們如果是故意的行為我們一定大部分都會列成被告如果是法律上其他的過失跟推定過失的我們目前在獨立董事的部分已經有一個審議內部的審議機制去衡量這個獨立董事的行為看有沒有符合法律上的禁職的概念如果有的話我們就不會提起訴訟而且我們實務上還有三種情況是當然不會提起訴訟的情況對獨立董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
556.181 |
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580.694 |
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你講到獨立董事我就是要提醒你你如果是這樣子沒有好好的審慎的評估就去訴訟將來企業上市歸公司獨立董事沒有人敢幹獨立董事在很多上市歸公司其實他領的待遇非常的微薄結果動不動告他然後再對他進行保全程序公司做了一些壞事 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
582.622 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
608.033 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
連他的董事會面已經表達說我反對然後還用純正心來告訴董事會說你這樣違法那一種的你們都在告這一種的我是說以過去我收到陳情的案例為例那如果這樣下去的話這件事情是因為現在大家相當專業大家沒有聚焦在這上面弄下去之後以後你要找獨立董事都有困難了 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
609.491 |
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627.219 |
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是 各位原報官我們現在有三種情況如果他已經表示異議或者他有去檢舉吹哨或是他有請獨立外部專家來協助的話我們會當然不提告那這個現在是新改的這個政策嗎是 之前就有之前是有 但是我遇到的案子不是我遇到的情景不是這樣啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
627.939 |
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641.551 |
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當然他有一些細緻的部分就是說他的反對是不是針對財報不實的情況有沒有講到確實有虛位的一個情況的有一些差距在確實在構成要件上還有一些更細緻的部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
642.646 |
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654.584 |
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所以我們在這裡當然不方便檢討個案啦我是說他瞻之時可以公錯過去的案例你也可以來參考好 謝謝委員以前做的事情如果後來到事後證明說這個是相當離譜 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
658.129 |
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682.586 |
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你那個判斷部分的檢討以及檢討之後到底這裡有沒有責任我如果是你們住裡面的律師我會怎麼想 反正我的薪水就是這樣我告人也是這樣 告書也是這樣告人就變成不用去承擔那個後果被訴訟除了國家有司法成本之外 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
684.434 |
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713.573 |
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被你告的人他也要付出司法成本這些成本可能不是你在文字上看到有人說你被告就被告吧你不知道被告的痛苦再來如果你做保全程序的話他的財產全部都被你封走了他要如何生活所以這個事情要訴訟在我來看是一個嚴肅的事情當然該告的人必須要告因為這些人如果是利用這個制度詭惡的人我也很贊成告他 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
714.554 |
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739.708 |
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但是誰來決定告不告就變成一件很重要的事我覺得這一方面要加油啦要加強因為也不是說檢察官移給你的案子你就一定絕對都要告我跟你說以我以前在法院的經驗檢察官起訴的案件定罪的比例有一些我舉個例子以貪賭罪為例到最後判決確定的有罪不到五成 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
741.957 |
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759.991 |
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那當然有一些他已經自白了 有一些輕微的犯罪他也不想懶得跟你爭執了 那個當然定罪的比例就高所以我的意思是說 自己要有判斷的能力該告要不要告 這個是你們這個機關對社會有沒有公信力的一個關鍵點好 謝謝委員 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
762.828 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
785.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
主委請你督導加油好不好我們會請我們棋局跟他們保持密切的剛剛委員提到那兩點是不是增加專業的這樣的協助再就是對於選案的部分有一個更精準的標準更符合我們社會期待的標準好謝謝加油好謝謝接著請賴司保委召委諮詢 |