| IVOD_ID |
161928 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161928 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-26T11:34:54+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-26T11:55:29+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:20:35 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a7d9912f56d79f123330f39aabc08752512766cb13dea93891eeae6d87bcf22d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
林淑芬 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:34:54 - 11:55:29 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論事項8案)。） |
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好 謝謝主席請彭部長部長李委員好好 部長今天的報告事項裡面第19案本人的提案我覺得你們把它列為報告事項然後直接提一個書面來就要解凍我覺得是為德不足啦因為我們的解凍的要件叫做你要水泥液空氣污染物排放標準修正草案預告後 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
38.179 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
52.592 |
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預告後你要修正這個法規預告後然後把這個這個書面送到立法院才能送進來那就自動解凍我給你的條件很寬鬆就是你只要把 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
53.473 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
70.053 |
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這個水泥窯 因為你們水泥窯裡面燃燒SRF會產生代澳鋅的比例並不低而空氣污染物排放標準應與燃燒資源循環燃料的鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準要一致 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
70.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
98.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
所以水泥窯燒SRF跟一般的鍋爐燒SRF一樣要納入這個代澳新還有氯化氫的標準你要把它設定出來然後要有標準以後預告然後你預告了然後送一個書面報告說報告立法院我們已經預告了水泥窯有這個代澳新標準有氯化氫的管制標準了所以水泥窯燃燒SRF |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
100.411 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
112.358 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
現在納管了那我們只要送這個報告來那我們就自動解凍都不用經立法院同意可是你今天沒有預告沒有修正然後就送一個書面來然後就自動解凍了這樣對嗎委員請我們司長來做這個報告好不好 謝謝 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
118.396 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
141.071 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
向委員報告這個案子其實我們在寫書面意見的時候我們也強調是預算就是要預告以後才能夠解凍那因為行政院要求我們這個解凍案要全部一起送所以我們在解凍的時候我們沒有說好那我們第19案改列為討論事項因為他並沒有達到報告事項的標準他必須要修正以後修正以後 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
142.192 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
146.134 |
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好那這樣子好OK那接下來我要討論就是我上一次諮詢也沒有問到的就是限制產品過度包裝限制產品過度包裝部長你知道我們的94年就公告了這一個規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
159.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
182.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那針對哪五類的商品禮盒去限制嗎你不知道 我告訴你沒關係 這不是很重要糕餅類 化妝品 酒 加工食品還有電腦程式鑄作光碟天啊 電腦程式鑄作光碟限制它不可以包裝過度連這個電腦程式鑄作光碟都快要消失了啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
183.871 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
206.9 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
我是要跟你不是要講這個你們在這種限制包裝裡面定定的包裝幾層體積比值可是20年了這個政策的核心目標是要引導產業走向省資源易回收的包裝標記要環境減輕環境負擔要環境友善可是你們所有的作為都要指向源頭減量可是這個政策20年了還這麼的 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
211.042 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
212.383 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這麼只是一個口號而且很荒謬的是規範的內容早就跟市場的現況脫節第二個 稽查的執法的效能完全不忍阻堵看不下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
226.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
254.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
所以現在源頭減量這用口號而已那管制的範圍狹隘 犯人多數包裝浪費部長你也說說看市場上琳瑯滿目的單元產品單品的化妝水 單件的衣服和複合產品多件組合的零食包 包了一層再一層清潔用品補充包的組合這種包裝問題真的是日益凸顯的 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
256.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
274.028 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
包裝用量廢棄量都超乎這個環境能夠負荷而且這個政府完全沒有任何規範所以在這種狀況裡面你們還限縮在這五類的禮盒的這種狹義的定義早就 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
275.273 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
280.996 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
法規非常的落後了啦剛剛講的光碟連光碟都沒了你還在限制它的包裝氣氧產品不是氣氧產品已經全部都沒了非常的罕見我要去找一片光碟還要看它有沒有包裝都已經找不到了 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
295.626 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
304.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
早就不合時宜了 部長 你就聽著也要求包委員我們現在有一個草案我是請署長來說一下對啦 我現在草案另外一回事 我先跟你講喔單元和產品和複合產品有那種紙類的塑膠盒加熱縮膜有那種塑膠泡殼加紙板我們的文具用品 我們的清罐洗用品有那種熱縮膜 那種 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
323.288 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
330.152 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
茶飲飲用茶然後有那種組合包裝塑膠袋的等等啊是這個署長是是那更為報告我們現在有針對現在比較多元的一些就是比較複雜一些包裝方式那有提一個草案出來那只是說因為草案我們還希望說能夠做更多你們規範的類型有哪幾種 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
349.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
353.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
現在就不只是那五類了啦 那個類型你們是怎麼個規範法 那個類型你草案公告了嗎 還沒有 那個類型的內容是說我再來跟委員這邊來報告好啦 你回去你沒好啦 抱歉我現在說你們自己不知道也不公告也不訂案 所以你們在這裡報告我沒好我現在說你們的荒謬就是執行面的荒謬 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.104 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
380.487 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
113年度環境部自己針對市售的禮盒產品主動去稽查了100件合格率只有64%其中市面上有36%超過三成的禮盒公然違規還有更荒謬的業者自己主動送來檢驗的業者自己送來 代表有符合規定才會來嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
400.92 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
408.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
業者自己上來主動送宴的73件禮盒當中有10件不符合規定,不合格率13.7%誒,這麼高的不合格率,所以你知道部長整個管理面、執行面、法律面都很荒謬吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
423.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
431.668 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
因為我們最近很努力在弄資源循環推動法這個就資源循環啊 源頭減量啊你們資源循環最大的問題就是沒有源頭減量你們去調查過度包裝的稽查件數109年59.8%不合格110年20%不合格113年43%不合格 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
448.097 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
453.48 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
112年50%不合格我剛剛講了113年36%我的意思是說那五類 俏西人的五類都五成 六成 四成不合格那更不要講新的樣態那新的樣態我講PVCPVC的收縮膜潛藏了健康的風險對環境的負擔很重大大家都知道PVC拿下去焚化爐燒出來就是帶澳新 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
477.212 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
480.573 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
大家都知道而這種PVC的收縮膜對人體和環境的風險這麼威脅的時候國際都在禁用了韓國1993年就制定了產品包裝方法及包材 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
492.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
496.68 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
包材的相關規則對於包裝空間包裝的層數都明文規定而且製造商不得使用PVC層壓收縮包裝或塗附的包裝材料2001年韓國喔韓國喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
510.57 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
538.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
禁止使用PVC收縮膜2004年就是21年前韓國更禁止了蛋、油炸、食品漢堡、三明治等食品包材使用PVCPVC的塗層包裝也一樣不可以所以部長 韓國人就炸的都限縮啊整個PVC包括在醫療、醫材上都還在使用 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
540.125 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
565.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
要生死的人 那個包材 都都是PVC所以環境部針對食品包材 網購商品以外的市售產品PVC的包裝 到現在都沒有全面禁止禁用所以這種有毒的 對人體有毒對環境帶耗心排放 對環境有害還要繼續下去嗎 部長 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
566.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
583.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
委員 這個我們來檢討好不好 這個盡快因為我們最近那個法案花了很多時間送進去 溝通完成現在就PVC的管制 你認為要管制到哪裡啦韓國二十幾年前 人就很多限制啦台灣現在還在隆厚 隆厚人二十幾年還有那個食品包裝的 還有這個藥材包裝的還有洗身的這些藥物的包裝 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
595.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
611.247 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
還有那個管子 醫療用的管子還在PVC還有裝水的 一般人去提水的白色的桶子還在PVC塑化劑很嚴重啊這樣你看 保庭你看要怎麼管理 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
612.336 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
637.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
各位報告,那我想在那個剛提過那個五個包裝我們是有在檢討五類的一定要檢討,那些不要說,要笑死人我們在那個網購包裝部分有個公告事實上裡面也有針對PVC單元產品還有複合式的產品一堆那雙的啦你的草案要想好誰啦我現在要說的聚焦在PVC我還是要談PVC,對健康案的環境危害最大保證,你怎麼管 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
642.29 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
663.663 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
食品 衣材還有全面的禁用 包裝上的禁用有困難嗎你現在都要擔頭 不要輕易的擔頭喔各位報告 那我們這邊會來這個調查它的使用情形那要減少它來使用有包括落後了二十幾年了我剛才不是跟你講韓國韓國1993年 2001年 2004年通通連圖層都不可以含PVC |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
672.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
674.566 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
那你們的循環包裝政策理想很豐滿 現實很骨感 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
692.611 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
704.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
你們推動循環包裝要擺脫一次性的包裁的依賴尤其要實現循環經濟啊達成包裝減量的目標啊尤其是大家都知道網購啊 大家網購買很少嘛我自己就不愛網購但是就很需要網購每次網購一來它那個只相當的包裁我就想要我到底可以拿去做回收你們也有一個示範計畫 你知道叫什麼嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
726.362 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
746.132 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
網際網路購物包裝限制使用對象及實施方式你們設定了循環使用箱循環箱使用循環袋的使用率目標然後你們就跟區域城市有一個合作計畫叫做配客加網購循環示範計畫然後你們還有一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
750.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
766.472 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
環境部團購你們自己部裡面做示範啦環境部團購然後循環鄉示範計畫可是我剛剛講政策很理想現實不堪不堪阻堵啦你知道你們的問題在哪裡嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
771.161 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
785.592 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
因為那個成本比較高啦那我們現在有一個公告那是1.0版等於是說我們把第一次試辦變成一個法令化那現在要更進階有個2.0版那現在也在試辦當中那我先跟部長報告一下你們的問題第一個 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
787.333 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
793.798 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
循環包裝變成了排碳怪獸本來是要對於源頭減量的資源循環使用可是你們的環保的美意不但沒有達到這個目標還蕩然無存的更浪費資源而且更排碳排更多先鋒型的循環帶的總環境負擔它的碳排放量是1.32Kg就是碳足基數值跟碳排放1.32公斤 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
816.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
827.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
是一般的袋子的0.35KgCO2e的3.77倍 意思是說做一個一般的信封袋跟你的循環袋 你的碳排放量是人的3.77倍那沒關係啊 因為比較用的嘛 比較用的可以循環使用啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
839.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
859.579 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
你們的循環箱的總環境負擔是1.64KG是一般箱子的4.39倍可是我們知道原物料階段是循環包材這個環境負擔的主要來源所以它就是要用耐用而且它才重複使用所以它在初期生產的階段環境負擔是比較高的 我們都同意 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
863.16 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
874.79 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
但是在循環經濟 循環使用以後就知道一個信封袋要循環幾次才能夠跟一般袋的環境負擔持平打平嗎要幾次你知道嗎 4.02次 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
879.995 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
906.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
那如果是循環箱子要循環幾次才能夠跟一般的我們的網購買一般的紙箱打平它的環境負擔才能打平要循環4.68次但是保證這個進程你沒有追蹤你知道你的信封型循環袋還有箱型循環箱平均重複使用幾次嗎部長你知道嗎你不知道喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
910.613 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
911.539 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我先看數字好了來 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
913.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
920.822 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
台北市喔 這個循環歸還率25.7%不是百分之一百喔一顆希望歸還回來25.7% 循環不到一次一百顆出去了 只剩下25.7%新北市26.6% 桃園8.6% 台中32.0% 台南20.2%平均啊 23.6% |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
941.437 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
943.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們都要4.02次 4.68次你對環境負擔 你才能夠那個成本才能打平它是不到一次耶 怎麼辦怎麼辦 保證 你的政策有問題啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
958.601 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
977.311 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
你知道在這種歸還率平均23.6你們自己都覺得問題在哪裡你知道嗎因為要還給你這個循環箱很麻煩大家就沒有意願所以間接的導致循環包裝的整體使用成本不降反而上升 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
978.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
983.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
這是不是打臉了你們的便利回收你們說這樣便利回收示範計畫很好 其實沒有啊回收的據點 數量 分布 服務時間都不能夠滿足服務那個民眾的需求所以願意使用而且歸還這個循環包材的消費者和業者沒有辦法提供足夠而且具有吸引力的實質獎勵 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
1003.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1011.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
所以連基本的回收便利性使用誘因都沒有所以要怎麼循環所以你的循環變成口號而已啊口號啊可是你的循環像在初期的碳排放 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].start |
1019.164 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].end |
1041.492 |
| transcript.whisperx[44].text |
在這種狀況這麼高的狀況裡面然後你要達到你的目標根本就是天方夜譚天方夜譚所以你的政策推動零散沒有系統性的規劃失敗而且你們在講說停留在零星的業者自主事辦還有你們部裡面自己的團購你們宣稱 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].start |
1044.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].end |
1064.849 |
| transcript.whisperx[45].text |
要以大代小 以公代私 屈臣氏的系統叫以大代小嗎大家的網購都在屈臣氏嗎 沒有以公代私 你們環境部的網購循環幾個人參加幾次你知道嗎 部長 五十六 六十五件 六十五件這樣的話 推動這個示範計畫 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].start |
1069.946 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].end |
1083.083 |
| transcript.whisperx[46].text |
這個計畫是先在環境部按大型業者推廣使用再逐步擴展到全社會建立起一個涵蓋電商平台物流公司和零售門店的全方位循環包裝生態系統你們要說 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].start |
1087.548 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].end |
1115.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[47].text |
實現包裝資源的高效配置和利用 以上我念的都是你們的政策宣示的目標但是呢 除了這些宣示 天方夜譚一個啊你們要如何在全國範圍內大規模系統性的建構循環包裝的設施基礎你的營運的模式 還有產業的生態鏈能不能提出具體的這個政策藍圖 都沒有啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].start |
1116.304 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].end |
1141.919 |
| transcript.whisperx[48].text |
所以你們的循環包裝永遠停留在示範而且是失敗的示範 而且是負面的示範負面的啦 負面的啦好了 幫委員 這個其實我們最近我上任之後就過去一年有好幾次跟那個電商平台在討論這個事啦啊 委員你說的你們跟幾個電商平台在討論 哪幾個所有電商平台 他們有一個協會啊現在有誰做了還沒什麼協會呃 他有一個無電面工會 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].start |
1143.854 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].end |
1147.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[49].text |
有啦 人家Momo電商也有啦Momo說你可以把使用完畢的紙箱歸還到慈濟慈濟的社區資源回收站很多人都不知道慈濟的資源回收站對不對但是Momo也做一個意思意思啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].start |
1162.424 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].end |
1173.092 |
| transcript.whisperx[50].text |
比你們更好啦因為你們是屈臣氏網購屈臣氏的東西走到你們家然後再把這個信號拿去屈臣氏我如果要去屈臣氏 我就去網購屈臣氏你聽得懂嗎 因為屈臣氏有實體店面啊我買的東西 我如果要走到屈臣氏 我就去網購所以沒有店面的 沒有實體通路的 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].start |
1190.255 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].end |
1217.398 |
| transcript.whisperx[51].text |
那個某某是這樣做但是還有一種蝦皮的電稻店的蝦皮電稻店回收很方便建置一個系統刷一下放進去蝦皮電稻店很多人在用所以你自己做這種你這種的進程真的是有夠好笑的部長這件事你自己沒有管到的 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].start |
1217.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].end |
1232.533 |
| transcript.whisperx[52].text |
OK我知道啦 因為那個是以前的報告啦 我會再來注意 找一天跟委員再特別報告對啦 我的19案 剛才的19案 改為討論事項OK 謝謝不要再讓你委員笑了啦 好 謝謝接下來請 |