| IVOD_ID |
161922 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161922 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-13 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
13 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-26T11:04:25+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-26T11:21:29+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:17:04 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a411316a5a46ceffa330f39aabc08752512766cb13dea93892ff8e0841230419b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
張啓楷 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:04:25 - 11:21:29 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：處理114年度中央政府總預算決議有關環境部主管預算凍結報告案142案(含報告事項134案及討論事項8案)。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
18.905 |
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20.767 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
天空的這個顏色啊是一個國家進步的象徵 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
34.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
63.232 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
你是專家你應該聽過這句話空汙的多少也是國家進步跟落後的一個象徵柏定你上任以後天空的顏色有進步還是退步二氧化硫氮氧化物酸雨越來越多還是越來越少全民都在看這幾天很多人都在討論你的講法你說要了解PM2.5多少可是很多學者專家提起你 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
64.81 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
80.346 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
空屋啊除了PM2.5其實啦淡涼化屋流氧化屋也是很嚴重的對不對淡涼化屋大概佔整個空屋比例大概16.5%嘛如果是流氧化屋40.4%啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
82.335 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
107.976 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
我今天提這個是希望說 你的天空是進步的你現在監控PM2.5的同時 要注意所有的好不好報告委員 我說一下定義喔PM2.5含直接排放 還有衍生性的衍生性就包含SAX NAX就是你說的氮氧化物跟硫氧化物 它是一個懸浮微粒所以我們講健康 是會拿PM2.5來跟健康各種的病去做比較的所以這是國際上通過一個做法 我並沒有錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
108.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
137.64 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
現在是兩個問題啦 一個就是不要只看到那個小微粒啦其他要放進去 第二個 現在有人在說啊你把它全台灣平均起來不要只有看玉山 把玉山放進來 把阿里山放進來空氣通漏的台東到花蓮 現在通漏中立道事實上就517飛河加岸以後大家在擔心的是什麼就中火嘛 中火的污染源就是從這個一燒起來 燒煤炭開始從苗栗一直到高雄嘛 對不對然後這幾天引起最大爭議 是不是 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
139.025 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
152.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
就是星達三號跟四號嘛那燒煤炭要繼續燒嘛就是本來用這個核能的時候它是低碳或者是無碳的那一下燒煤炭的時候污染就增加嘛這些比較值嘛 對不對所以我才講就是說你這個部長要是進步的還是退步的 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
154.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
175.277 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
包委員第一個是說我們有嚴格的去監控每一個地方的空污在這個過去一兩個禮拜我們台灣的空氣品質當然我必須說天氣比較好也有下雨我們的空氣品質並沒有變差第一個第二個委員說的這個平均全世界都是一樣我們有32個手動式標準的策戰 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
175.897 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
186.413 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
那個標準是用這種所謂的手動式要過濾到水氣的影響所以我們跟日本跟韓國是一樣有一樣共通的跟美國一樣的標準所以我們才做這樣的比較的 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
187.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
213.657 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
剛剛你有一句話我是肯定的就是說你說除了室內跟室外之外室外你說還是要去努力嘛對不對對當然我就希望你是往進步的方向走啦跟我剛剛那個比較只是個很明顯的像核能是低碳無碳的時候你燒了煤燒了天然氣當然就是增加嘛對不對那你就有責任盡量讓它要避免要不是變少了啊第二個是整體去談我希望大家以後在評判你的時候就今天因為有媒體用社論在評判啊你說不要用廢發電這個字眼啊其實 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
216.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
244.927 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
如果空氣有汙染空汙是嚴重的就是用生命在發電啊用廢啊用健康在發電啊那個我講一下啦像今天秀芳在這中華因為中華受害中華也是很嚴重的中華去廢線來鑽台灣通街嘛而且全民就在注意這個事情當你廢核加研完之後今天主席在這剛剛那個劉建國劉主席主席現在不在與你那個麥寮電廠古泥河山廠的一號機停了之後 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
246.857 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
273.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
就是繼續賣掉電廠啊全台灣最大污染源發電的第一就是中火嘛對不對第一就是賣掉啊賣掉本來4月份已經停了啊火已經滿了啊要緊急去續約啊所以有建國他們就受害啊所以那一天是雲林、我家裡的鄉親台南、中華、台中幾天人來行政院看醫啊還到監察院要求要調查啊就民眾的感觸是很深的嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
275.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
297.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
所以一方面是為了大家的健康一方面空屋的這個事情你是環境部長我們會看現在的空屋有沒有任何的變化現在的數值有多少你也可以打開你的手機APP看我們現在是PM2.5的數值是多少過去這幾天台灣以中部來說的話大概就是8到9而已並沒有顯著的變化高雄我們也正在看也沒有顯著的變化 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
298.484 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
315.433 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
一個東西一個排放擴散我們環境部都有去監控任何的一個煙囪的第二個呢它擴散是一個過程它其實是一個大氣擴散是一個非常非常複雜的一個學問所以我們當然我們當然會希望它能夠減量但是造成空污的來源真的非常的多所以我說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
317.015 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
338.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
我們有一些但書,我們PF2.5的確從過去的103年是24十幾年前我們的那時候是每大概50%左右我們空品PF2.5全國南部都三四十以上的現在已經降到平均全台是12.8了我是用那樣的方式說我們其實很多的來源所以我們可以用更平時的討論包含的生活污染源、移動污染源我們一起來減量 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
340.115 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
356.148 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
要整體去嘛所以你說最大汙染也是高通嘛對不對所以我們就會想說要多發展這個大眾的這個運輸系統啊電動車嘛對不對那它可能還在增加所以除了整體去看之外你要看每一個事件的發生中火很明顯啊盧先生講得很好啊他去統計517前後的兩天他現時燒煤炭就增加了1.4噸啊1.4萬噸啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.298 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
387.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
這數據不會騙人嘛 如果燒了1.4萬噸 空氣怎麼會變好 一定變差嘛對不對 啊等於 委員空氣 我們會看實際上的空氣品質的監測值並沒有顯出的變化對啦 而且柏震你說的嘛 他有很多種污染源嘛 包括汽車 對不對你說最大是交通嘛 那我說整體當然要看 可是你很明顯如果從中火燒煤炭增加 當然空氣一定是 那邊一定是變不好的嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
388.521 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
402.477 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
沒有變不好 你可以看過去的幾天交通這邊變少了 或者下雨嘛我說單獨 你單獨去看中火 中火就是前後就增加了1.4萬噸 是幹嘛 對不對那這個有沒有增加 盧先生說的對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
404.793 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
430.687 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
517非核加鹽他就統計516跟518啊518中火燒的煤炭就多了1.4萬噸啊夠明確了吧這東西不會騙人吧一個空污的排放他燒多少煤他還有他的這個控制管制這個污染的這個量他有一套的技術在那邊最後擴散出去是有一個過程那個其實都受到鹽糜的監控的有在控制有在改善嘛可是他就是增加嘛對不對你會否認增加這個事實 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
432.625 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
459.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
但是我們會看但是我們會看實際上的空汙到底有多少從沒有到增加1.4萬噸這東西你怎麼會否認呢你應該沒有否認這個吧我沒有否認啊但是問題是說我們會看實際上每個民眾呼吸到的空氣的PM2.5到底是多少嘛我們從數字來看嘛所以它就是增加嘛啊第二我現在接下來跟你講高雄嘛高雄也是增加來補充一下第一個這段時間老舊這個機組從 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
462.642 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
473.308 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
高雄兩個重要基礎這個重啟 顯示什麼就是用電不夠嘛 電力不夠嘛所以政府戳破了政府這不缺電這個牛皮嘛我覺得嚴重的 我覺得這就是環境部的責任了我認為清達3號跟4號它重啟對不對它是合法的嗎合法的合法啊我給你看一下古年啊 基本 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
492.063 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
518.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
這一份是113年5月份薛部長的書面報告他說緊急備用電力設施的啟動通報程序為了維護供電安全跟穩定當實際或者易估系統供電餘裕就是備載容量多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
520.043 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
521.884 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
6%以下台電公司可以視電力系統運轉情況啟動緊急的設備以為因應我問你一下這邊星達3號跟4號運轉的時候它備轉容量備轉容量幾%我不知道 因為這個是台電要錄的事情他就不合這規定啊6%以下嘛 對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
549.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
552.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
8%目前我們所到的數字是8%所以台北是達年環境不妖新達8% 大年是6%對啊 韓市裡面幾%這是薛部長的報告 6%以下才可以啟動我在進一步給你看你們在106年的 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
576.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
580.695 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
0023996號函你們的函式也是寫6%啊那這樣星島來來保定從薛部長的報告從106年你們的函式台電這個緊急的這個機組他如果要備用要運轉都要6%對不對他走不到6%他就可以運轉咧這沒違反你的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
608.251 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
630.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
有沒有大林 說實在的啊大林電廠 大林電廠你知道幾歲喔大林電廠1975年耶 已經除役了他在運轉那個空汙 那個老舊的機組一方面危險一方面空汙嚴重嘛不過基本上大林還大林還符合你的6%我現在問你是星達3號跟4號有違反你的6%嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
638.53 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
650.536 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
報告委員基本上他是一個緊急備用有一個720小時的一個限制那環評的這個承諾的是備轉容量小於8%這個是興達電廠這兩個呢符合當中一個就可以了 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
654.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
669.013 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
人家台電已經打臉你 已經違反你的規定了 你還幫他解釋這是環比的規範第一 明明薛部長在立法院的報告第二個 我剛跟你講這個韓式文 你再查一下好不好第二個 好 我進一步問你你剛講說緊急備用電力設施8%這個事情這什麼時候的 什麼時候的規定有這個嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
683.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
708.266 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
當時的環評承諾環評承諾 對這個環評承諾沒有違反你自己的含釋違反你的規定有沒有違反空污法第24條目前是沒有 因為兩個法是獨立的大聲一點 請大聲一點沒有違法 是兩個法是獨立的兩個法是獨立 一個是環評法 一個是空污法 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
710.85 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
730.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
空污法沒有授權這個嘛然後第二個我剛剛已經給你看了兩個重要的這個文件嘛 對不對那現在部長 你現在跟部長講的是什麼是你的環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了空污法 它怎麼會有效呢而且補充剛剛的第一個時間嘛你要6%以下嘛它的反依據有問題嘛對不對 補充 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
736.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
744.053 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
公務法是緊急備用720小時 環評的承諾是小於8%的時候它可以運轉對阿 它怎麼可以訂一個違反公務法24條的就是6%嘛 6%跟8%差這麼多 6%什麼意思6%就是它的燈號已經從黃燈轉到橘燈橘燈就是系統性的限電可能要產生了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
758.82 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
782.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
你降到6%以下可能隨時大停電了捏要緊急去用電捏跟8%差很多捏這邊政府碰到什麼問題就是非核家營以後核三廠的二號機佔我們所有用電的3%把剛剛進戶的就再追那3%嘛追不到嘛啊你現在就是不到6%結果現在台電偷偷去啟用這個而且他連操作席可都沒有耶 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
785.694 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
789.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
第一個他沒有操作許可 對不對就是他違反你6%啊這個問題很嚴重耶部長我們具體要求啦他的環評承諾是有問題的因為反議據有問題你要照你原來的空污法的規定6%去走 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
804.079 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
823.821 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
所以你進一步去了解一下好不好這個我們再了解一下這個當時是因為這個年代非常久了啦但是我們目前是依法它環評的承諾跟空污法兩項它其實是符合其中之一它就可以它的運作不是 它如果你說的是環評承諾嘛環評承諾違反了魔法怎麼有效 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
826.889 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
843.127 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
第一個你是一個進步的環境部長你是要顧著人民的健康 人民的肺 人民的生命所以當然是要為一方面要顧及他的健康嘛是要先進的一個環境部長嘛第二個你要守法這個評估報告之後有問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
844.877 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
860.248 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
環評承諾如果有問題就要去改啦好我做兩個建議啦好不好來博定來我們做兩件事情啦做兩件事情第一個你回去把這個當初的環評承諾為什麼有八趴這個事情也沒違反你母法把它弄清楚好嗎啊地席比較重要地席比較重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
861.489 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
885.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
現在開始 現在大家發現一些火力發電特別是燒煤的或者是燒天然氣的 50年以上的老舊的全部都開了對我們健康還有危險 這個都是問題能不能請你折成台電 這是習慣的喔公佈每一天 每一個發電廠燃燒煤的 燒油的 它用了多少的油或者多少的煤 可不可以 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
887.265 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
912.595 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
這個我們要了解一下今天往這邊說才會是一個先進的而且顧到我們人民健康的部長你還是要看一下我們實際上造成我們的空氣品質的變化有多少當然我必須說這幾天天氣很好擴散很容易但是如果冬天的話可能不大一樣但是問題是說我們還是要看空污的影響你如果看那個園它如果做好污染的管控那個排出來的量就少很多這個是空氣污染這個我們有共識啦全民也有共識啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
913.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
934.044 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
就是說有下雨天暴雨人要用科學的數字來看因為那個空的數字到底有多少你看我們的EDB就可以有了嘛中火那邊有沒有增加燒煤或者是這個星達3號4號有沒有起這個也是理性物質科學的但我也可以看我們現在的空氣品質到底多少有沒有變化嘛有沒有科學嘛就是說中部南部的空品質有沒有變化嘛我做個簡單的因為我們講的沒有衝突啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
937.805 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
961.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
第一個空污是整體的包括交通包括工廠對不對這些全部都在裡面有沒有下雨也會影響嘛所以整體去控制是需要的可是今天更重要的就是每個具體的例如說中火裡面都燒了多少煤然後你星達3號4號本來是沒有的大林電廠本來已經是除役的你重啟那個個案當然就存在啊它從零變成有嘛對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
962.914 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
980.675 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
這個不用辯論嘛那我現在在跟你討論的整體的要去注意整體要去注意更重要的人民已經有感有感他本來應該是零的他變成有對我們的衝擊那你要去這個又是你管的啊這個我管的啊委員你也可以看一下我們的APP我們現在的空品到底多少 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
981.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1007.667 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
你兩邊去對照就可以知道說這個問題在哪裡你現在講通案嘛 我可以說通案就是包括交通什麼那些下不下雨那個都有 那個要做啦我現在跟你講是從零變成沒有的這個很重要 因為本來沒有嘛你今天如果火三廠二號機沒停掉你就沒有中火全開 火力全開啊就沒有興達電廠的三號機 四號機重啟啊也沒有大林電廠五十年的老舊除役的又重來嘛 是不是這樣這個當然是你管的 你要去注意啊 好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
1008.147 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
1020.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們會管現在的空瓶到底有沒有變化我們這個有智慧的主席已經站起來很久了通案處理然後個案零到沒有的要趕快監控確保我們的安全跟健康謝謝謝謝部長 |