| IVOD_ID |
161901 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161901 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-26 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-18 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
18 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-26T09:41:58+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-26T09:57:57+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:15:59 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/120d1ede7233a40a55433e25214de61b6c7274cb7632216e664b71adb5aad231617c360b5c5c43e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
吳宗憲 |
| 委員發言時間 |
09:41:58 - 09:57:57 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-26T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部次長、內政部次長、教育部、衛生福利部、勞動部、內政部警政署就「跟蹤騷擾防制法施行三週年後，其制度成效、實務偵查、審判困境與未來修法展望」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
二、處理114年度中央政府總預算關於司法院預算凍結項目共10案。） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
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來好 謝謝主席那我們麻煩法務部次長還有憲法法庭書記廳廳長還有副秘好 請次長 廳長跟司法院的副秘書長好 請好 謝謝主席三位早安 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
39.356 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
61.453 |
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我先請教一下複密還有廳長我想請教一下這個憲法憲法第二條就是經過立法程序公佈的就是法定預算那我們看到4至520號他有提到一個所謂的法定預算就是有一定的效力然後行政機關必須依法執行預算 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
62.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
87.372 |
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那並沒有拒絕執行的這個法律依據嘛否則就不符合依法行政的這個條件那我也再補充一下我們這一次呢一般性補助款2501億這個中央已經公佈了而且立法院刪讀通過也都沒有一毛錢被刪我再強調也都沒有一毛錢被刪也就是這地方的一般性補助款這個是法律預算而且一毛沒有刪 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.192 |
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102.208 |
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那我想請教一下司法院這邊司法院認不認同行政機關他要受到法定預算的基數應該要依法執行預算案請問一下司法院我剛剛提到了四制以及預算法第二條 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
106.982 |
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135.631 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
這個依那個這個釋字那個解釋意思是這樣子的對那釋字解釋這樣他們的協同意見書也非常清楚所以釋字520號然後再去看裡面的大法官的協同意見書說明的非常的清楚這個行政機關他必須要依法執行不能他並沒有說可以拒絕執行的這個法律上的依據我剛所說的就是我國法治好那我再請教一下如果說中央不跟地方溝通啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
136.75 |
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161.713 |
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然後他就動不動就不給你一般性的補助款那這個時候地方可不可以申請暫時性的權力保護因為這是屬於一個一般性的給付之數嘛那我想請教一下當這個狀況發生的時候我們可不可以提起這暫時性的權力保護請求中央依法撥給這個地方補助款是不是可以就是我們就不方便回答了 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
164.017 |
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187.955 |
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委員我可以回答嗎請說我想如果中央跟地方機關有爭議的話這個部分在憲法訴訟法它是有解決的機制這個我想說我們這個標的上面應該都沒有問題但是剛剛提到的如果涉及到暫時處分的話那依照憲法第43條那前提是要先有申請和細數是 好 謝謝那我再請教司法院一個問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
189.136 |
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204.242 |
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一個經過立法院三讀通過而且總統公佈的案子不管是什麼案那在提釋憲被大法官宣告違憲之前請問一下法律效力會不會受到影響請教司法院 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
206.523 |
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228.366 |
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我想在司法院沒有做出判決或者是為暫時處分之前他就是依法產生他應有的效力好那所以這段時間我跟非常多的行政機關的人在面對的時候他常常跟我嗆一句說啊這個將來可能會被宣告違憲或這個會那個行政院會提起那個憲法判決我們都應該知道一件事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
229.664 |
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249.967 |
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請公務員能夠理解一件事情一個法律如果經過三讀通過而且總統公佈這個法律就是生效了除非他日遭到大法官以宣告違憲在被宣告違憲之前他都是一個生效的法律我們都必須依法行政必須遵守請問一下司法院是不是這樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
251.852 |
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276.548 |
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是好謝謝那我們再過頭來我想請教一下法務部的次長次長請教次長我國刑法有一個129條一流客扣罪堂屋罪條例第6條第一項第一款也有所以呢公務員對於明知道依法依職務上面應該發給的款項而一流不發或者是客扣這個會處罰 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
279.691 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
298.982 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
請教次長我國有沒有這樣的法律規定我先不含涉到目前國家發生的事實我只請教次長有無這個法律規定就如同委員的資料上面所記載的就是有這些法例所以我下一邊再跟國人以及各公務員報告如果你有依法應該發給的款項而不發給的話 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
302.964 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
322.932 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
你如果明知這個狀況這個在我國會有刑法以及貪污自罪條例的規範所以我們公務員依法應該發給的款項就要依法去處理不能夠不處理好那我在這邊再跟各位報告一下就是其實啊主計長啊其實主計長人很好啦非常 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
323.672 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
336.923 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
NICE溫和的一個人他所組長的主計總署他明明知道今年的中央總預算拿到是史上最高的預算最高那本來編列的支出是高達3.13兆這個錢比 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
340.256 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
361.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
蔡英文執政時代編出來的預算是高了16%所以呢我們政府這次拿到的錢比蔡英文執政的時候多了一千多億比馬英九執政的時候多了一兆並不是沒有錢啦那我必須這個東西我要講一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
364.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
375.518 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
我再講一個就是我們看一下一個圓餅圖來這個是民進黨所自己這是民進黨做出來的圓餅圖所以他說什麼二三預算我請各位看一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
376.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
401.183 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
在灰色的部分都是當時民進黨跟國人說這個是不能刪 不能動 不會改變的預算那在這次的地方計畫型補助以及中央的一般性補助款 中央的法令支出這都是民進黨自己告訴國人不能動的喔民進黨告訴國人說被刪除的範圍是粉紅色的那個部分所以他說藍白提案刪除 也就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
402.403 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
428.084 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
說民進黨都告訴你們了一般性補助款是不能夠變動的他是不能夠變動的這個圖到網路上現在都還找得到其實一般性補助款到現在一毛都沒有刪啊刪讀通過一毛都沒有刪這邊跟各位先補充有這個問題啦好所以呢我想喔被刪除的11個項目就剛剛粉紅色那個被刪除11個項目是 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
430.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
453.133 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
立法委員覺得就是中央政府他的國外旅費電費媒體宣傳費這個等等非必要非優先的費用有一些腐爛或消費性的支出他其實刪的是這個並不是刪到地方的一般性補助款一般性補助款一毛都沒有刪這個我先跟各位報告我覺得最近國家已經一團亂了 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
455.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
475.128 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
行政機關帶頭說謊說得越來越誇張所以我在這邊必須要依法依據事實的跟各位報告狀況是怎麼樣我不是找中央政府麻煩我說的這些東西全部都是依據法律上面規定所講的所以我覺得主計總署我剛剛所說的這些東西還是要依據 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
476.269 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
503.39 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
依法來執行 依法來行政不能說自己想怎麼樣就怎麼樣更何況其實我們的主席長其實在台南當過主計處的在主席處服務過嘛他應該知道中央跟地方之間在預算上面的關係以及我國廢審之後預算上面的配比的問題他應該要很清楚這些事情啊就是因為廢審之後配比發生的狀況所以民進黨在 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
505.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
521.214 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
在野的時候他提出要修改才化法就是這些問題嘛當年我也陪著民進黨很多人上過街頭啊所以我覺得大家要很清楚這整個脈絡是怎麼樣而不是把法定的東西亂開始去調整所以在過往的總統 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
522.535 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
547.701 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
幾任總統沒有人敢去動這一塊但我不知道為什麼今年的政府敢去動了這一塊那再來我再跟各位報告一件事情一般性的補助款其實這個是救命錢這個是地方的教育以及那些低收入這些弱勢團體的一些補助的款項主席不好意思再給我一點點時間這一般補助的款項所以這個並不是一些 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
548.901 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
571.438 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
並不是說富人需要用的錢這個是社會上很多人需要用到像身心障礙、老人津貼、營養午餐、育兒等等的錢所以你去砍這個東西這個不好吧好那我再舉就是國內的兩個縣市負債比最高的苗栗跟宜蘭它負債很高像宜蘭一個人要負擔3.85億的公共債務那我們再回過頭去想一下 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
577.728 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
588.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
因為行政院的發言人是說地方可以去舉債啊可是我們身為一個我們現在當一個立委我們捨得我們縣市政府 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
589.707 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
607.258 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
他們讓子孫負債越來越高嗎比如說苗栗已經6.5萬了我希望他越來越高苗栗的子子孫孫宜蘭的子子孫孫他們負債的比例越來越高嗎我覺得我們都捨不得吧所以中央一句話說你可以去借錢你可以負債我覺得這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
608.619 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
630.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
話不是這樣講啦 更何況借錢不是不用還 還要負擔利息喔這個不是很多縣市負擔的了那像也有負債還OK的 像屏東他是沒有負債嘛那但是呢 大家都統一三二十五到二十七趴我覺得這 這個不對啦 不能搞這種齊頭式的這個玩法齁這個其實對地方上是很不公平 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
632.423 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
656.565 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
所以呢我跟各位說我自己的感覺是這樣立法院在監督中央政府今天不管誰執政誰在野反正立法院的天職就是監督中央政府當立法院覺得中央政府沒有做好他刪你的預算的時候結果你竟然是去轉去刪地方的錢這好像一個感覺是什麼就好像說那個 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
657.628 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
685.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
你去一個地方上班老闆跟你講好一個月五萬塊那依照勞基法他也必須要一個月給你五萬塊結果他跟他老婆吵架他老婆把他喝酒的錢砍掉他跑來跟你說我每個月給你的五萬塊我只能給你四萬變成這樣啊他被砍的是別一個項目的錢結果他來告訴你你依法該給的錢他不給我覺得狀況變成這樣嘛請大家能夠理解這個是不對的啦那我要再一次重申齁這個 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
688.035 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
714.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
在野黨立委並沒有砍到一般性的補助款地方的一般性補助款這段時間我覺得我們遇到很多人你看這段時間其實一開始很多人講說藍白爛三預算什麼租屋補貼什麼育兒津貼都被刪光了我其實走在路上遇到那個霸團拿個麥克風在那邊講都在講這一套但最近比較少人講了 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
714.699 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
736.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
那我覺得這跟資訊越來越透明也有一點關係啦因為越透明大家都知道這很多都是在騙人的嘛所以我上一次在這裡也是依法告發了幾個部會首長因為他們講說什麼租屋補貼被刪光等等後來發現根本沒有刪那這個就是不對的那另外就是說你為了要大罷免你去講這個那是違反 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
737.949 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
744.409 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
選罷法104條第一項就現在罷團沒有在講了開始沒有在講這個東西了 就我們發現 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
745.612 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
772.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
哇 原來中央這些人民的救命錢沒有被刪真正刪了人民救命錢的是誰 竟然是行政院行政院不給地方一般性補助款這些錢就是用在地方給弱勢團體的小孩子給年輕人的救命錢就真正刪這個救命錢的不是中央的立法委員反而是行政院去刪地方的這些錢真正刪的是這些錢 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
774.543 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
790.172 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
但當初一堆造謠的那些說藍白爛三預算導致地方上的年輕人的錢都沒有了弱勢團體的錢都沒有就這些現在都不是真的真正白紙黑字出來的事實是什麼就是 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
791.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
812.207 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
行政院要刪掉地方的一般性補助款那一般性補助款主要就是針對這些弱勢以及社會福利教育等等的錢所以我們看到原來爛三預算的是行政院好 那我在這邊最後最後30秒我提一個啦既然這樣子的話我在這邊就一樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
813.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
837.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
秉持法律人的天性依法告發一流客扣罪我不知道但是我不知道是誰決定的中央政府裡面不知道誰決定的是不是主義董事會決定的我不知道我們就告發一流客扣罪啊那請法務部你能夠請檢察官請調查局能夠趕快下去處理既然調查局他可以因為幽靈連署這種 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
838.815 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
867.332 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
中選會可以依法剔除的東西他都覺得哇這個傷害國家很重破壞民主制度他都可以這樣子全國大搜索大羈押OK沒關係違法你去查但是呢今天這個更嚴重因為這個一流客戶達到636億而且是全台灣受害而且受害的人是窮人是低收入戶不是富人喔因為這些錢不是富人用到的錢是這些教育低收入戶 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
868.937 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
896.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
殘障的人需要用的錢那既然這麼嚴重那是不是我們應該要我不敢說比什麼柴油林連署更用力啦你就跟他一樣用力或八成五成都好啦麻煩檢察官調查官下去查一流客扣罪麻煩一下我今天在這邊依法提出告發請去查明是誰在哪一個公務員在幹這個事情是誰不給我們這些辛苦的人年輕人一條活路 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
897.659 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
915.309 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我剛講的東西全部我剛法律一整套推理的邏輯我想次長 廳長 副秘都是法律人都非常清楚我這套邏輯是什麼清清楚楚從憲法到地方法規的論述我清清楚楚我認為這個就是違法不發給而這是屬於刑法的一流客戶請問次長要補充嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
916.65 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
944.746 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
有沒有 我們尊重委員的意見不過也補充說明說因為相關關於這個刪除 刪減預算相關程序以及它的實質憲法上的爭議現在已經隸屬於這個憲法法庭審理中那我們都尊重一切判斷的結果謝謝 那我也希望我也希望最終是一場誤會真的要發給因為我在這邊跟各位報告以及現場所有人報告我個性真的不是追究誰的責任我是希望說因為這636億真的是地方需要用到的錢而且 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
945.987 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
958.201 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
刪讀的時候在立法院一毛都沒有刪就是核實的發給各個地方各個縣市不管是哪一個政黨執政縣市因為我們這些弱勢的人民需要這些錢好 謝謝各位 謝謝主席 |