| IVOD_ID |
161712 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161712 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-22-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
22 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
教育及文化委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-21T11:06:15+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-21T11:23:00+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:45 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db67a2d72ff37e15b056f20d851a8422b7db0f420b3783afbd2ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
葉元之 |
| 委員發言時間 |
11:06:15 - 11:23:00 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關中央研究院主管預算(公務預算)解凍案6案。
二、處理114年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案9案。
三、處理114年度行政法人國家原子能科技研究院單位預算解凍案1案。
（5月21日及5月22日二天一次會）） |
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主委好 麻煩請找核安會主委好 有請陳主委主委好剛剛我看到很多委員都有談到之前我們有通過核管法那核管法通過後有一位我們總統府氣候變遷對策副召集人童子賢他是大家的讚揚 |
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那這個所謂的總統府氣候變遷對策委員會是賴清德總統非常重要政績因為我看到他在拍影片的時候特別提到他有成立這三個委員會是很好的政績那裡面其中一個委員會的副召集人童子賢又是這麼的肯定核管法我來念一下他說通過核管法代表多年來台灣民主社會透過直接民意與間接民意已經清楚表達老百姓厭倦 |
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也否決非核家園的政策而且他也提到最近的能源政策很多問題啊有漲電價造成空污而且碳排過高還有地方派系侵蝕綠能利益而且讓天然氣的供電韌性也飽受威脅等等啊所以對於一個總統重大政績裡面的委員會的一個副召集人如此肯定橫寬法 合寬法 |
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那我又看到那麼多的民進黨的立委反對核管法這是網內互打嗎還是童子賢在打臉民進黨立委像比如說像黃婕那時候核管法的時候她說哎呀通過核管法就是要讓什麼老舊研議啊那個核三廠已經機組已經這麼舊故障率大增然後講一大堆那現在是童子賢打臉黃婕還是黃婕打臉童子賢我現在要問主委啊主委你是核管法的主管機關嘛 |
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140.765 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
是請問一下核管法的那條修正案是說通過以後核三就馬上研議嗎還是核一核二就馬上研議有嗎不是的按照文字的理解如果大家沒有閱讀障礙講的只是說放寬那個研議的法規限制嘛對吧如果今天核一核二核三要研議的話是不是還必須要經過核安的 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
141.907 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
168.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
確定還有核廢的處理跟社會共識嘛這個是這個總統講的嘛沒錯吧所以不是核官法通過立刻研議沒錯吧所以就很奇怪我那時候看到很多民進黨的立委在反對核官法的理由都讓你覺得很奇怪因為沒有人會在核安有餘裕的情況之下希望核安法研議嘛所以昨天在立法院有一個公投案剛剛我也有看到別的委員講啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
170.327 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
183.734 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
是這個核三廠的研議公投講的也是說當大家在確定比如主管機關確定安全無虞然後是不是要研議嘛所以大家其實都是把核安看得非常的重要 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
184.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
202.517 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
而且總統講說如果核定要研議那要有社會有共識什麼叫社會共識公投就可以取得社會共識不然什麼叫社會共識那我現在要指出一個核安會接下來一個很重要的責任因為現在核三公投非常有可能在今年的8月23號投票 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.078 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
231.944 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
到時候河山假設要研議它是安全的還是不安全的必須要有一個具有公信力的機關來出來做說明這不是說大家自己在這邊憑空想像它安全或不安全它必須要有一個機關出來真正做檢測然後為大家來示疑請問一下河安會這個部分你們有再去做檢測嗎河山場到底安全或不安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
234.33 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
259.929 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
這個部分需要由台電來提出申請其實細節部分我請高市長跟委員說明一下什麼意思 主委你可不可以對著麥克風講話我說這個部分台電需要提出申請台電依據他們的需要老化程度等各種因素所以台電如果沒有提出申請 核安會就不能夠確保 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
261.01 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
288.62 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
河山廠它是安全的或者是不安全的台電 河安會就不會處理這個事情河安會不會處理這個事情所以這重點就是說假設台電它不去跟河安會申請那河安會是就不管了也不會確保說即便是河安會對於這個廠你有安全疑慮你也不會去了解就讓台電自己來處理是這個意思那請問一下河安會 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
289.997 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
314.615 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
核安會沒有在確定核安全喔?是被動的等人家來申請才會去確定喔?就一部分請高組長說明一下跟我有說明喔那核管法三讀通過後核安會就會配合修正的條文要修訂執法然後要聯繫你一些管制的要求那這些技術細節的話我們會參考國際的做法 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
316.716 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
342.002 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
那原本核管法的執法裡面有一些老化的管理這部分要處理那目前的狀況因為核電廠都已經進入處理了那機組的狀況跟當時候核管法所設定的情境不一樣所以那個目前的機組要做的事情比當時候順利在運轉期間申請延長運轉的東西還要多所以這部分 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
342.842 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
370.911 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
台電公司要依照會裡面所定的執法跟相關的管制規定去盤點評估那有沒有重啟的一些條件安全的需求必須要做哪些事情那這部分台電公司要先去針對現場的設備然後重新評估去確認那如果他確認完之後認為說他需要提出申請換照那核安會就會進行安全審查跟現場查證確認他要符合法規跟管制的要求 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
371.491 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
390.299 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
當然這個過程當中因為我沒有那麼多時間討論這些細節那所以重點是你講的重點簡單講就是說台電他要先假設他有演藝需求的時候他才會去送核安會讓核安會來確認說他有沒有安全的問題他要自己先評估他自己要評估嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
390.839 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
415.479 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
那他評估根據核管法他要研議的話他才會他先評估安不安全然後才會送核安會嘛核安會是不會主動去了解他安全或不安全過程中我們會去去視察透過視察的方法所以我們現在我們今天8月23票8月23號大家投票前如果台電他沒有去做這個動作的話我們並沒有辦法得到核安會的一個報告或者是告訴社會大眾他是安全還是不安全 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
416.673 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
439.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
沒有辦法那這樣子8月23號公投我覺得既然這個案子已經進入到8月23號這個公投案如果政府機關可以多負起責任不是被動的去接受別人的申請我覺得是比較有助於社會大眾做出判斷不然的話這個到底安不安全這個到底是誰說的算當然是核安會是最權威的機關 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
441.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
463.446 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
呃 跟我原說明的話沒關係我後面還有別的問題啦那 再來啦因為政府一直講說我們不排除不排除核能嘛特別是針對一些新型的核能像SMR這個很多人都在講這個東西我想要確定一下主委就你的了解台灣可能部署SMR大概是什麼時候啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
465.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
488.503 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
我SMR國際研已經有一些產生開始做研究有一些產生非常多這個我都知道目前大概2030年國際才會有商業化的2030年才會有商業化那台灣部署大概什麼時候如果可行的話一定是2030年以後的事情這部分請高組長跟委員說明一下又高組長不不高院長 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
489.648 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
507.353 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
是 報告委員 那個因為就是西方世界比較成熟的要2013年商品化那個過程不要再解釋了我現在是問說到底什麼時候當然定一個目標說我們不排斥新集合的人那到底什麼時候不會到2040還是2050的吧我們現在一個計畫 四年級的計畫我知道 我還幫你用紅筆列出來你有一個四年級SM大規模的計畫每年要爭取一億經費啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
515.575 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
537.482 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那四年之後就是2029年啊那2029年我們就會有SMR嗎商轉化以後就是成本全面的幾個模組會比較貴所以也許二三十個模組以後它的價錢或cost down下來技術會比較穩定成熟所以也許商轉以後也許再過個兩年一兩年兩三年國家台灣再來決定要不要引起所以是2025加420292029再加2 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
542.882 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
567.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
2031年再來考慮這幾個不同的商業的M3R的模組來考慮要用哪一種 是不是我們的模組在四年計畫會提出一個建立看使用哪一個模組所以按照你的講法是2031年嘛是嘛 所以何安會的講法是說2031年可能我們就會決定SMR就可以開始部署 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
568.593 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
586.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
對吧我沒有誤會你的意思那時候才判可不可行那時候才判可不可行那看可不可行還要多久才會開始興建2031年我們大概就知道就知道了那好那確定2031年可以確定要做不做那要做之後那興建一個要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
587.729 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
615.287 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
那現在時間是比較短大概多久三年所以2031再加3是2034差不多差不多等於是十年後我們可能可以用到SMR的這個電是不是如果證明可行的話十年後還需要滿足核安核肺那我接下來繼續問因為有很多專家學者也有提到說SMR的核廢料 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
620.119 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
642.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
那我們現在核廢到底要怎麼處理?像SMR是現在你們研究的方向嘛,那SMR如果有核廢料的話要怎麼處理?SMR的核廢料有些跟筆線差不多,有些比較少,所以不是一定數比較多。不是一定秒,我知道。那所以你現在是確定選擇商轉的SMR是要選擇核廢料比較少的是不是? |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
643.209 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
649.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
應該是這樣應該是要選核廢料那比較少還是會有嘛那你們現在怎麼去處理這些核廢料這個不能請問 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
650.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
671.077 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
報告委員 那個核廢料分兩種SMR產生第一放的核廢料跟現在的第一放是一樣的處理方式它產生的高方 怎麼處理就是先固化 然後儲存然後將來 這是可以處理的對 將來是要送最終處置廠就是它可以 也不用最終處置廠那最終處置廠現在計畫在哪裡現在計畫在台電 在執行中 什麼執行中 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
676.741 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
702.525 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我今天沒有把那個表格列出來啊這個每一次大家都在問這個啊最東廚師廠定一個計畫出來但是到底進度有沒有按照那個計畫進行嗎有嗎他這個師生有言辭這個我都知道了之前問過我就不重複問了那再來我來問因為我們大家關心這個東西都主要是怕缺電嘛怕缺電才會問這個東西我問一下中研院好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
707.328 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
730.374 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
跟中原會請教一下氫能的問題這個是中原會報告裡面講的跟台電公司合作在113年6月提案114到117年度公共建設計畫有一個天然氣去碳燃氫的一個系統建置跟試驗計畫是四年的那裡面裡面寫到是說到時候是會把這個燃氫的技術串接到燃氣的發電機 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
732.234 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
748.678 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
換句話說,按照字面上的理解,它會增加發電嗎?還是說它只是把原來燃天然氣的機組,把它改成燃氫?是把原來的機組做一些...所以它並不會增加發電嗎?我們請那個...我問你們為什麼講話都那麼小聲?可以對麥克風講話嗎?那我們請環面中心陳於高主任跟委員詳細報告 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
757.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
780.45 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
各位委員報告燃氣就是原來的天然氣轉成氫氣來燃燒電力不會增加那可能還會犧牲一小部分的電力不過產出的是無碳的電力對我知道我剛剛講說我們現在在討論會不會缺電問題因為政府一直告訴大家我們現在綠能有很大的發展有兩個部分一個是燃氫另外一個是地熱對不對 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
784.751 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
809.637 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
這個論述的方式是跟大家說大家不用擔心啦 我們現在技術很好啦我們有地熱會增加發電啦 藍青會增加發電可是按照剛剛中原委員的說法 沒有啊只是把藍天藍氣串接到藍青而且他剛剛那個主任講的說法還是說他還可能會消耗一些電力啊所以藍青沒有增加電力啊只是減碳嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
810.899 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
834.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
沒錯吧所以這個沒有辦法增加電力我們現在想要知道的是政府發展綠能有什麼方式是可以比如說大家現在都說要非核非核那之後綠能怎麼去補這一塊藍青看起來是沒有辦法他只能減碳是委員剛剛已經說了地熱的發展就是來補這一塊的因為我們原來是沒有地熱的對 那地熱現在的計畫是什麼 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
836.195 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
851.904 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
現在地熱我們從淺層的往深層的去深層的去它的量體就會比較大所以這未來的一段時間在地熱的探勘上會著力的比較多地熱我下一次有時間我再跟中研委員請教那接下來我想問一下中研委員人才招募的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
853.318 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
871.898 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
這個是中研院人才培育跟研染計畫我看前面有前面兩項一個是研染資深學人另外一個是與國內大學培育國際研究生計畫這兩項計畫應該都是朝國際招攬招攬人才嘛但是它就出現一個就是目標值跟實際值的落差譬如說 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
872.859 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
889.526 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
比如說我們看第一項延展資深學人113年度目標值10人但實際值只有3人114年度也是一樣目標值只有10人實際值只有3人想問一下說為什麼總是沒有辦法招到足額的優秀人才來 鍾妍玉 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
890.666 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
911.957 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
跟委員報告現在這個表當初實質立了三年其實111年的時候實際值其實有九人最近這個是資深學人資深學人的意思是說他在國外已經有或者是有長聘的職位或者是有一些講座的職位這些人 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
913.297 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
939.645 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
對我們來講都是一個很大的挑戰希望他們能夠到台灣來工作有的並不是台灣的中華民國國籍我知道我是問說為什麼目標跟實際有落差有些這個期望目標值但我們設的都蠻高的所以實際上所以是因為目標值設太高是不是我們可能會再看以後看把目標值調低喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
940.455 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
952.017 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
不是,我們會盡力努力啦我想我們希望這個都能夠能夠達到高的數字因為你們設目標值10人,實際3其實有很大的落差那我現在問你們困難在哪裡你的講法是說沒有,沒什麼困難是因為目標值設太高這個說法就大家比較不能接受那我覺得這邊有一個建議啦你參考一下因為川普有篩檢研究經費嘛75%的科學家考慮離開美國 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
968.76 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
991.3 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那國外呢有一些其他國家已經在考慮招攬這一些因為這個川普篩檢經費離開的這些研究人員像法國歐盟啊他們都有訂出一些計畫然後跟這些招手啦我認為你可以參考一下歐洲的國家的經驗啦看他們怎麼去針對這些可能因為美國預算被刪減然後離開出走這些人才讓他們來台灣 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
992.782 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
1002.235 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
謝謝委員長指教關心我們現在正在開始擬定一些計畫特殊針對現在的新的發展是的謝謝好謝謝好謝謝 |