| IVOD_ID |
161689 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161689 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-21 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-26-12 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
12 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
26 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
社會福利及衛生環境委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-21T10:17:29+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-21T10:34:21+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:16:52 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e381da0d479eb7db2eb15ad74bb4cbaacdb65d50a7385bb6c32860b8eb41b244420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
黃國昌 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:17:29 - 10:34:21 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-21T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部、教育部就「性騷擾防治及外聘督導制度精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。） |
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有請衛福部次長以及台大醫院的院長吳院長,我先請教一下目前台大醫院在急診那邊,擁擠的狀況還嚴重嗎? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
33.584 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
58.414 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
最近又開始嚴重,因為最近是新冠肺炎JN1病毒株最厲害的時候最近這一兩個禮拜病人又開始增加我只想利用這個機會,因為難得有機會在外環委員會遇到你我將心比心,非常多家裡有老人家的人老人家一出狀況 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
60.754 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
86.985 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
可能後續的併發症等等會很嚴重大家第一時間都要送到台大去過去我曾經陪伴我的父親在台大醫院的急診室那時候人多到我還記得很清楚我是在病床不是在急診室病床是在大廳睡在大廳睡在病床外面 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
88.527 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
108.83 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
當然每個人都需要服務整個晚上我有看到急診處的同仁大家非常非常辛苦我只想藉這個機會第一個表達我的謝意第二個台北醫院急診處或其他醫院的狀況有什麼需要立法院這邊幫忙的 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
111.009 |
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133.921 |
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請院長隨時跟我們報室聯絡該給第一線醫護同仁的支持,全力支持好,接下來請執照那個我想額六的問題,大家天理難容啊非常憤怒啊,這麼多人在法院外面抗議啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
135.509 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
159.351 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那當然過去這幾年我們的政府不斷的在強盜社會安全網那相關的預算的經費也不斷的投入那每次這樣子的悲劇發生的時候我們都會去思考我們整個社會安全網為什麼政府這麼重視投入這麼多經費接不出凱凱這也是我相信為什麼台灣社會這麼多人憤怒的原因 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
160.792 |
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183.945 |
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有事前預防的層次也有事後究責的層次事後究責的層次對於現在額內的處罰規定不夠這件事情已經有相關的提案雖然主管的機關是法務部但是從衛福部的立場針對額內的部分去增加刑罰的強度這件事情衛福部是不是贊成 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
184.77 |
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203.03 |
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我想在法律的部分委員也清楚我們在過去的修法事實上在相關法規如果是對幼童相關的虐待事實上都加重其刑二分之一是至於其他的刑度或者是在修法上面的立場當然我們尊重法務部的當然是尊重法務部嘛所以我說法務部是主管機關所以我才請教你衛福部有沒有立場 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
203.55 |
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228.471 |
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站在衛福部的角色我們事實上就是把剛剛委員所提到的社會安全網的部分來做強化對不起我剛剛在問的是刑法的問題我這邊做的是前端的預防不是刑法是我說站在衛福部的立場針對有關兒孽增加刑法衛福部知不知恥我想兒孽對兒童虐待在相關的法律裡面去加強去讓他加強刑法過去就有加強二分之一刑法等等所以你覺得夠嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
230.791 |
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253.828 |
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比如說站在衛福部的立場我們做的是前端的預防跟資源的補強那針對後面刑罰的加重後面刑罰的加重就是法務部的權責所以你們就完全尊重法務部我不能在這邊去為法務部說我沒有要你為法務部現在我請你站在衛福部的立場表達衛福部的態度你可以跟我說衛福部沒有態度尊重法務部這樣就好了對我剛剛說了OK好來第二個 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
255.009 |
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257.113 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
去年3月的時候,問黃委員會針對這個凱凱的額內案 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
262.155 |
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289.144 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
請惡福部報告那一天出現了很多意識上的悲隔因為民進黨委員認為主席是王育民委員王育民委員好像是額福機構的董事他當時是額福聯盟董事是,然後認為他應該要利益回一臂鬧了很大的風波我今天其實是來討論制度的問題我不是來做政治攻防的問題 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
290.305 |
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294.408 |
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因為最近這一兩個禮拜我相信相關的政治攻防也夠了讓大家非常詫異是不是用同樣的標準站在下面的人去抗議坐在上面的主席是那個機構的董事 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
310.526 |
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336.324 |
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結果搞到最近大家才知道原來他是這個案子裡面外部督導那我相信詹惟也是好意所以今天排了這樣子的一個專案報告去討論有關外部督導的權責那只不過我看了衛福部今天的報告我對外部督導的權責其實我是越來越困惑真的越來越困惑那我為什麼說我會越來越困惑我們一步一步來看 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
338.971 |
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那個時候在去年3月的時候衛福部所提出來的書面報告講說要去強化地方社政主管機關的監督職責包括對於居家托育服務人員的監督那這個監督我們落實到法規層面上繼續來看有關於兒少福利與權利保障法第26條第三項的規定 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
367.188 |
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389.928 |
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居家式推育服務的監督直轄市政府可以自行或委託相關專業機構團體辦理這個沒有錯吧那我現在的第一個問題是說這個居托中心的監督的這件事情在凱凱案他有委託外部的團體辦理嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
394.301 |
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418.363 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
這個當時是文山區的這個居托中心我們先一樣一樣來因為我覺得現在太多媒體上面的討論都著重在政治上面的攻防這不是我今天質詢的重點所以就請你們一樣一樣把問題的層次弄清楚就是那個保姆他是由兒福聯盟去轉介的 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
420.029 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
424.801 |
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是吧 那個保姆是不是掛在文山區的居托中心下面 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
426.277 |
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452.565 |
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我這樣說應該沒有錯嘛就是我們一定要把法律關係先搞清楚全責才可以釐清啦你如果連基本法律關係都弄得亂七八糟的我看一堆媒體的報導我真的不曉得他們在寫什麼東西啦第一個那個保姆是掛在那個居托中心下嘛那按照這個兒少法26條第三項的規定以及直轄市縣市政府居家托育服務中心執行業務處理原則 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
454.426 |
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464.547 |
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其中有一個重要的法定任務是那個保姆去照顧小孩但我們要有個機制去監督那個保姆我這樣說應該沒有錯吧 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
467.046 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
487.883 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
那個因為這個要記在立法院公報所以就請你yes or no就直接回答這樣立法院公報才可以因為你點頭那個議事人員無法記載你點頭那個保姆我們其實是由各縣市政府他的這個居家托育服務中心來做管理是嗎好那現在法條上面26條第三項他說監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
491.116 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
509.807 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他可以自己做也可以委託相關的專業機構團體辦理那凱凱案這個案子的監督是台北市政府自己做還是委外做台北市政府他是委託民間團體來做委託哪一個民間團體新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會怎麼進行監督新北市大愛關懷協會 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
521.087 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
533.463 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
第一個他給文山區的居托中心然後小孩交給他們下面的居家的保母去照顧嘛那我現在care的事情是因為我們今天竟然講 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
534.844 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
555.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
外部督導我老實講啊督導這兩個字我看不懂什麼叫督導我是法律人啊所以我一定回到法律權利義務關係才會清楚嘛在法律裡面規範的是監督那監督可以委託外部監督那您剛剛所講的是委託外部監督是由誰做的 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
555.546 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
577.627 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
委員我再說明一下就是說保姆是由文山區居家托育中心來監督這個保姆文山居家托育中心是由新北市大愛關懷協會接受台北市政府的委託來經營管理這個文山居托中心那誰負責監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
582.47 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
600.685 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
監督保姆嗎?還是監督?第一個是台北市政府他應該要負責監督文山巨頭中心因為依照我們兒圈法的第26條所以我剛才問你嘛,再回到26條第三項在這個案子裡面監督這個事項有沒有委託外面的專業機構辦理?有還是沒有? |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
602.774 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
621.428 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
還是你不知道 你不知道就說不知道沒有關係他就是委託新北市大愛關懷協會來 對吧所以就回到這個問題嘛所以要負責監督的是不是就是新北市大愛關懷協會那新北市大愛關懷協會他監督的範圍有哪些因為我今天看你們的書面報告我這樣講可能有一點你聽了會不舒服 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
630.199 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
653.779 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
我看不懂在寫什麼啦我真的看不懂在寫什麼啊監督可以委託外部的機構做那他就是要做監督嘛啊你整個書面報告把它寫的好像是一個外部的顧問啦有意見聽聽他的意見就好啦委員您對外督外督的工作跟這個新北這邊那個所委託的單位做的所謂監督是不一樣的事情 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
653.939 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
679.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
我知道所以我回到這邊的監督來看現在我沒有要指涉對定的委員我已經說了我今天來這邊質詢不是來做政治攻防的是要把我們社會安全網到底怎麼建構在法規上面的權利義務把它搞清楚這個是我今天站在這邊質詢的理由因為凱開的案子大家除了憤怒除了要重懲絕大多數的人關心的是不要再出現下一個案子 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
681.075 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
689.558 |
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所以我才問嘛回到這個個案來加以檢討那個監督你是說有委託一個大愛關懷中心來做外部監督嗎這樣說應該沒有錯嘛那個外部的大愛大愛關懷協會他要怎麼進行監督 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
697.125 |
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719.022 |
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他第一個他自己內部有督導所以他的督導應該要監督他的訪視輔導員剛剛我們有講居特中心要辦理的這些業務他都是應該是他們內部要督導的在這個案子裡面剛剛您所講的外部監督單位的那一個所謂內部的督導他有沒有盡到內部督導的責任 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
721.009 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
746.073 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
對 這件事情就是台北市政府他應該也要督導是啊 我們層次一樣一樣來我從來沒有說台北市政府可以免責我現在在追究的事情是監督的工作已經委託一個外部的機構你現在跟我講說外部的機構他有內部的督導跟外部的督導我的理解沒有錯嘛在凱凱這個案子裡面內部的督導有做到他該做的工作嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].start |
747.851 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].end |
774.048 |
| transcript.whisperx[32].text |
這個是我的問題還是到現在你們也不知道他有沒有做到他該做的工作方法委員就是說他我們有相關的由地方衛生局他們有這個收託中心的地方的社會局有這個收託中心的訪視工作指引那事發當時我們也認為說像這樣子的一個特殊需求出養童他的這個訪視指引的評次是真的不夠所以我們後來有再加上了一個指引對不起我剛剛不是在講訪視 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].start |
776.15 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].end |
781.797 |
| transcript.whisperx[33].text |
我還是回到這個案子喔他內部的督導有沒有做到他該做的事情有就有 沒有就沒有這個事情就這麼簡單還不知道就說不知道嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].start |
793.151 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].end |
813.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[34].text |
他們有沒有做到?有還是沒有?還是不知道?根據記錄他們有去做這個訪視輔導員有去訪視但是我們認為這樣子的一個敏感的狀況也許他是跨縣市他的訪視頻次還有訪視的強度應該要加強所以妳意思是他做得不夠好嗎?可以這樣講 如果要這樣說那他的外部督導做得好不好? |
| transcript.whisperx[35].start |
814.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].end |
823.965 |
| transcript.whisperx[35].text |
外部督導要看這個居托中心要求或者是請外部督導來協助的是哪些案子好那以這個案子來講外部督導該做哪些事 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].start |
825.267 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].end |
845.869 |
| transcript.whisperx[36].text |
外部督導其實在外督的立場上來講事實上就是協助員來機構內部不論是他的這個社工或者是仿事員尤其是社工他在他的功能專業職能上的提升所以他沒有負責監督他感覺起來是比較是教育性質顧問性質心理扶植性質的是這樣嗎是這樣子的外部督導有意義嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].start |
847.864 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].end |
869.865 |
| transcript.whisperx[37].text |
外部督導事實上是長期以來在社工我們為了加強社工面對多元儲育很複雜的這些工作的情況之下能夠增加以及同時也給予社工業的支持要給社工外部的資源支持我百分之一百都贊成我百分之一百都贊成這個立場先講好但是我還是回到我的初衷 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].start |
871.001 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].end |
894.295 |
| transcript.whisperx[38].text |
我們要避免下一次悲劇發生 每一個人該做什麼事情 權責要很清楚如果現在劃定的權責 不適當的話 該改就改為什麼我一開始強調 這是一個政府委託的外部監督機構法條的功能就是要做監督嘛 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].start |
895.216 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].end |
915.574 |
| transcript.whisperx[39].text |
那監督機構你說那這個監督機構有內部督導有外部督導內部督導沒有做好所以我才問你他的外部督導該做哪些工作因為我在法規上面完全看不到啊那你如果說今天我們對任何一個工作要有內控外控 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].start |
916.823 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].end |
945.441 |
| transcript.whisperx[40].text |
我們就是擔心內控沒有做好才要做外控嘛但你們今天提出來的報告讓我沒有覺得根本沒外控啊有跟我們報告 剛剛林月琴委員也要求我們在一定時間之內把外都應該林月琴委員喔 要求你們什麼事情喔沒有 林月琴委員要求你們什麼事情是林月琴委員的質詢嘛現在我在質詢的是我的問題嘛跟您報告就是我們會去界定外都他在跟相關委託單位之間的權責義務需要多久 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].start |
946.394 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].end |
968.504 |
| transcript.whisperx[41].text |
我們盡速來研擬盡速是多久?這個事情發生非常久了我們是不是可以讓我們跟社工這邊再去跟社工了解社工們的需求以及執行所以這個問題意識你們是最近才發生最近才發現有這個問題意識報告員剛跟您報告了在去年事情發生之後我們事實上就訂定了直轄市跟縣市政府居托服務中心的訪視原則讓原來應該去做訪視輔導員的部分可以落實 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].start |
971.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].end |
996.206 |
| transcript.whisperx[42].text |
對 那我剛剛講的是外部督導的部分啦所以我問你們的問題是你是到最近才知道我這個問題意識嗎外部督導本來他負責的事實上就是來作為原來機構的備援跟強化對不起 你還是沒有回答我的問題剛好問你要多久啊你說你需要去跟人家討論所以我才問你說你有這個問題意識多久了嘛啊你如果到現在還需要去跟人家討論這件事情的話代表是你現在才有這個問題意識嘛我有說錯嗎 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].start |
999.71 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].end |
1002.732 |
| transcript.whisperx[43].text |
需要多久委員我們認同我們系統性來檢討那我們剛剛是不是說兩個月我們兩個月會把這個相關的權責還有委託機構之間的權希望盡快希望盡快謝謝 |