| IVOD_ID |
161534 |
| IVOD_URL |
https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/161534 |
| 日期 |
2025-05-19 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼 |
委員會-11-3-36-17 |
| 會議資料.會議代碼:str |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 會議資料.屆 |
11 |
| 會議資料.會期 |
3 |
| 會議資料.會次 |
17 |
| 會議資料.種類 |
委員會 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼[0] |
36 |
| 會議資料.委員會代碼:str[0] |
司法及法制委員會 |
| 會議資料.標題 |
第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議 |
| 影片種類 |
Clip |
| 開始時間 |
2025-05-19T10:04:28+08:00 |
| 結束時間 |
2025-05-19T10:16:36+08:00 |
| 影片長度 |
00:12:08 |
| 支援功能[0] |
ai-transcript |
| video_url |
https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ecb6f54fb5d604f04403902df97c7f27239b9191e0d12eeacb2fe453f4508dd4ec2d40718126b8875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8 |
| 委員名稱 |
莊瑞雄 |
| 委員發言時間 |
10:04:28 - 10:16:36 |
| 會議時間 |
2025-05-19T09:00:00+08:00 |
| 會議名稱 |
立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院副秘書長、法務部部長、法務部調查局局長、國家通訊傳播委員會代理主任委員、內政部警政署署長、中央選舉委員會、數位發展部、個人資料保護委員會籌備處及中華電信股份有限公司率所屬相關單位列席就「民眾反應收到罷免連署簡訊，顯非商業廣告目的利用，質疑個資洩漏而侵害人民權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢。
【5月19日及21日兩天一次會】） |
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| transcript.whisperx[0].start |
0.999 |
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9.646 |
| transcript.whisperx[0].text |
現在我們請莊烈雄委員謝謝主席我現在也不知道要叫誰,我叫調查局好?副局長副局長有來齁?莊華電信也有來齁? |
| transcript.whisperx[1].start |
13.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].end |
39.958 |
| transcript.whisperx[1].text |
中華電信中華電信哇 抱歉咧 民營的這樣 把你叫來但是也剛好來做一個釐清啦我剛 那個副局長我剛針對 趙偉請坐我剛針對趙偉 吳宗憲所提出來的問題啊我是很有興趣啊他提到啊 這個簡訊的發送啊涉及到整個選票法第98條第二項的一個問題啊我倒非常支持啊 他講了一個講法 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].start |
41.769 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].end |
45.194 |
| transcript.whisperx[2].text |
按照吳宗憲委員這個講法,我告訴你,你國民黨還抓到我告訴你台東縣海端鄉的民眾就跟我來檢舉啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].start |
51.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].end |
56.07 |
| transcript.whisperx[3].text |
就一直接受到中國國民黨去寄送的一些資料說 哎喲 國民黨快滅黨了喔 你們就趕出來這樣連署喔這樣罷免成癮喔 你們要滅黨跟成癮到底有什麼關係好啦 如果是簡訊是違法的你來搜集這個 人家個資 同樣都等同個資啊個資裡面不是只有簡訊才叫個資啊不然你們是不是這樣說 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].start |
77.963 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].end |
83.107 |
| transcript.whisperx[4].text |
我們的這個在公圖法的一個修訂裡面本來選報法的修訂裡面罷免不得宣傳這個部分我們以前已經刪除了現在已經可以宣傳了 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].start |
94.502 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].end |
113.698 |
| transcript.whisperx[5].text |
那如果是可以宣傳的話應該是說這個簡訊或者說這樣一個各自的一個第一階段的取得跟處理跟利用你要去判斷它到底哪一個階段是違法才對啊不是說你發送簡訊就是違法不是說你去寄送都是違法好啦 這樣我告訴你 你們國民黨抓到了嗎 你們台黨抓到了嗎 我告訴你 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].start |
115.7 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].end |
127.389 |
| transcript.whisperx[6].text |
所以這個我們在立法院裡面要特別提出個人的主張裡面我都很表敬佩但是其實那個射程有時候怎麼殺都殺到你們自己人副董你覺得怎麼樣?你覺得像仇人?我也不好意思回覆你啦你沒什麼說話你請回來我來請我們司法院副秘書長 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].start |
143.786 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].end |
156.677 |
| transcript.whisperx[7].text |
還有請中選會今天有來因為複密中選會這個都是很專業的在這個地方就不能胡說八道 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].start |
157.912 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].end |
184.902 |
| transcript.whisperx[8].text |
那我想請教幾位的就是說像這一次在野黨的朋友提出了所謂的憲判裡面整個死刑的判決是一致性的所謂的死刑公投這樣的一個案件我想請教的就是說這個到底是否屬不符合公投法然後到底是屬於重大政策的一個創制還是覆決是不是請我們中選會這個地方先表達一下看法好不好 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].start |
186.37 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].end |
208.906 |
| transcript.whisperx[9].text |
包委員那所謂的創始跟覆決那簡單的講就是創始就是從無到有那覆決就是從有到無是嗎是是 我也不知道我現在是覺得你具體個案給含塞進去之後你看這個案到底算什麼目前中選會是還沒有收到我們立法院交付的官民投票提案那如果收到以後其實這個案子喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].start |
209.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].end |
225.804 |
| transcript.whisperx[10].text |
它不會是重大政策的覆決啦你按照113年憲判第8號要求的是你這個修法都還沒有啟動當然不涉及到整個修正的具體的一個法規範那到底算不算政策的一個創制你認為呢 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].start |
229.742 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].end |
250.98 |
| transcript.whisperx[11].text |
包委員 就具體的個案而言 中選會會收到我們立法院交付的公民投票提案以後啊會依照組織法的規定啊 提委員會議來處理是啦 你講這個都比較空啊 我跟你講 憲判八號裡面講的就是說你該你立法院你該去做的事情 你不做 你去丟給公投 這個其實啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].start |
252.321 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].end |
279.23 |
| transcript.whisperx[12].text |
大法官的威嚴大義就是在講說你憲政機關你身為立法院你叫做怠惰啦那我們整個過去公投法的立法的一個目的我都覺得這一次這有一點背道而馳啦公投法本體規範本體是說老百姓提出公投的議題中選委你們要來審查嘛 對不對你們要來審查照理講實在是在審查這個老百姓提來的公投法可是啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].start |
280.03 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].end |
306.193 |
| transcript.whisperx[13].text |
現在問題來了現在是立法院所提出來的通過交付公投的中選會到底有沒有辦法審查連我自己我都畫上一個問號我都畫上一個問號但是前這個中選會主委啊他倒是指出了兩條路啦就是說第一個中選會向行政法院提出確認訴訟或者說立法委員自己來做一個提出可是又碰到一個麻煩啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].start |
307.254 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].end |
332.896 |
| transcript.whisperx[14].text |
這個就可能要請教來覆密了就是說以現在憲法法庭目前停擺來講的話現行大法跟白人你根本就不足以來召開新法憲訴法裡面三十條第二項鎖定的平易的門檻十個嘛那你可能這個判決到最後會攔產那你中選會向法院來提出確認訴訟反而可能會比較快我不曉得這個覆密署長你的看法是怎麼樣 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].start |
334.036 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].end |
335.137 |
| transcript.whisperx[15].text |
其實有一個東西你就很方便回答了啦你說任何 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].start |
359.922 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].end |
367.289 |
| transcript.whisperx[16].text |
過去有很多的憲判或者說以前叫大法官會議解釋除非後面的大法官會議解釋或者憲判去修正 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].start |
368.508 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].end |
390.806 |
| transcript.whisperx[17].text |
前面的大法官會或憲法法庭的一個解釋否則憲法法庭做出來的效率就等同憲法嘛不是嗎所以說啊就等同憲法啦那不管是從過去4至185號或是4至405號這一些啊涉及到整個大法官會議的一個解釋裡面那我來看喔 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].start |
391.894 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].end |
419.766 |
| transcript.whisperx[18].text |
其實都講得非常清楚了連2018年公投案就算過了司法院還是要求相關機關在審議立法的時候法律委員會還是不得抵觸憲法所以我覺得在野黨其實我在這個地方也必須要指出來就是說大法官憲判出來以後要求的是立法院來做立法的工作那立法院他不做他就說我也沒辦法做我就丟給民眾來公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].start |
422.165 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].end |
446.801 |
| transcript.whisperx[19].text |
這個就變成說除非要解這個議題就是說真正的要推翻大法官會議的解釋本席認為只有一條路 實質修憲因為大法官會議解釋等同憲法你要把大法官會議的解釋你要把它給推翻掉的話除了大法官自己把它推翻掉以外就剩下一條路 實質修憲不是這樣子嗎 副秘書長請教 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].start |
448.752 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].end |
472.819 |
| transcript.whisperx[20].text |
因為就如剛委員所提到那個釋字185還有後來的那個限訴法38條第一項他都明文規定說憲法法庭的那個判決呢他是有拘束各機關跟人民的那個效力的那所以各機關呢他有實現判決內容的義務那因此就是說當然就是說那個立法院呢他就就這個那個公投 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].start |
473.319 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].end |
499.875 |
| transcript.whisperx[21].text |
他是可以做出決定說交付那個有關於重大政策的那個爭議是可以交付那個公民公投這個部分我想是屬於那個民主原則這個沒有問題只是說那個做出來的如果說是全民公投之後所創制出來的這個決定呢他最後還是要經過那個相關的那個機關做必要那個處置那這個部分呢如果說是依照剛剛那個4-185 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].start |
502.837 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].end |
518.945 |
| transcript.whisperx[22].text |
還有憲訴法38條這個規定呢他都還是要遵循憲法法憲法法庭判決的這個內容的是當然是沒有錯啦但是所以說啊講到最後就是大家都嘎嘎唧唧啦大家都認為是公投其實是 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].start |
521.286 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].end |
536.656 |
| transcript.whisperx[23].text |
可以取代整個立法院的其實也未必啦那個除非說立法院的怠惰公投其實畢竟到最後他還是只是一個補充啦不然每天都來公投就好了最後我要請回我請那個警政署署長我要來請教你一下啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].start |
540.057 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].end |
550.768 |
| transcript.whisperx[24].text |
所以這個罷免連署裡面有發生很多干擾連署應該你們也都很清楚啦像譬如說監控啦 燈燒啦或是說去到現場裡面去看到差不多都是 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].start |
555.27 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].end |
579.544 |
| transcript.whisperx[25].text |
你看這次大家在反映的就是台中在罷免的 你就發現就是 立委的助理啦 里長啦 一些調查卡站在那裡 那個很明顯就是實質的一個監控啦可是這個也有一個很為難的地方 這跟選拔法又比較不一樣選拔法像譬如說我們在投票所 你說三十公席 你就不可以換那個對不對但問題就是說你在連署的時候 你也不可能要連署在哪一個點啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].start |
580.744 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].end |
609.386 |
| transcript.whisperx[26].text |
這又不是像實質已經進入到所謂的在投票啦我們的選拔法那裡都有規定這是只有罷免在連署而已連署我也有可能來採取要我自己來寫一張啊寫一張啊 你說我給你寫一張 你說要求三十公尺都不能有人去買 這也很奇怪啦但重點就是說針對罷免連署有這些監控跟盯騷的這種情況我們警政署有沒有可能去通令各地方警察局你們要有一個指引啊 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].start |
610.186 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].end |
622.74 |
| transcript.whisperx[27].text |
不然會灰你知道嗎 會灰啊不管是要罷免啦 選舉啦要去罷免連署 你說我還要勇氣把他連署下去這個國家就不正常啦這個國家就不正常啦你就說要罷免 我就說 欸 張署長 我就說你就不錯 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].start |
625.763 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].end |
629.226 |
| transcript.whisperx[28].text |
人家要去跟他罷免,我說不可以,我們也能公開說啊我說你很壞,我就是要跟他罷免,他就有勇氣我講到勇氣的話,你除非是基於人情啦那又沒話講嘛,道德勸搜、講正頭的,比較不要去人情但如果是什麼黑衣人啦,什麼民意代表、立委的助理、議員的助理站在那個地方,你看,你覺得真的要簽下去 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].start |
648.404 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].end |
673.494 |
| transcript.whisperx[29].text |
實質上產生這種威嚇我們警政署或者我們的基層警察人員面對這一些有人去舉報的時候你們是不是應該有一個指引好 包委員就是說對於連署的這個現場就是有各種樣態嘛是啊那就是如果有牽涉到違法那我們當然就是會依法來做偵辦那如果還沒有進入到違法的這個狀況我們大概都是會勸導跟勸離啦 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].start |
674.935 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].end |
696.156 |
| transcript.whisperx[30].text |
是啦,這基本的前提就是說,我們在投票,我們就主流行使我們的投票權嘛,我們要去跟人家罷免,那也是主流去行訴嘛,那其實在整個憲法的設計裡面,選舉跟罷免,那其實是權力是一樣大的啦,一樣大的,是說,你後面罷免這個又過了一個階段嘛,你又過了一個階段的時候,你說行政部門每天我們 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].start |
698.523 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].end |
727.293 |
| transcript.whisperx[31].text |
講到最後又是立法院的怠惰我們沒有辦法去把它弄得更細緻啦那但是因為法律在這個方面目前還沒有規範的時候你總是要執法嗎我們就是會排除現場的這個會干擾或影響的這個狀況那這個讓連署或者是罷免的這個過程當中只要適合符合規定的話讓它可以順利的做進行就是不要到現場的干擾這個是我們警政部門應該有的該做的事情啦好不好 謝謝 |